Adjustable outboard shaper fence.

[Martin Wasner]

I've been dreaming about this for a while. Recently I ordered parts from 8020 to make a fence using their extrusions, with linear bearings on each side. I also picked up a Wixey digit read out. I haven't done anything with it yet, but I think I likely wasted some money. I think it'll work, but marginally better than what I have now.

The current system I use is just a piece of Baltic Birch C-clamped down to the outside edge of the shaper, then I use a series of spacers to get the desired distance to the cutter I want. It works, but it's prone to inaccuracies with temperature and humidity changes, which in minnesota, can be severe with the seasons. Especially with humidity. I could have plates cut by a fab shop out of aluminum, that seems expensive and if they get dropped, a pain. If I had a CNC I'd consider buying a sheet of UHMW and just cutting them out of that, but that stuff isn't all that stable with temperature either. How much in a 35º-40º swing, I don't know.

What I really want is it to be automated. Punch in the number, hit go, and the fence goes to that number. Simple, fast, consistent, and hopefully accurate. Most importantly, borderline idiot proof. I really want something like my widebelt has on it for height control. Its a Minikol M15S control pad, and it's found on a lot of machines for height control, not just woodworking equipment.

My first thought was to call Tigerstop. They weren't too interested in my idea, or doing a one off project for me. They have a fence made for straight line rip saws that is pretty beefy, but it'd still be mounted to just one side of the shaper, and I'm concerned in will have too much deflection with the feeder pushing against it. (BTW, I'm not knocking Tigerstop in anyway, shape, or form. They make great products, just not for my odd ball application)

I'm a cabinetmaker with a tenth grade education, and I'm sure I could wade through building something myself, but my skills are best applied building cabinets. The amount of time I'd have in to doing it wrong numerous times and the cost of wrong components would likely cost me more in the long run than having someone else do the fabricating.

My most recent thought is there is a small company locally that builds CNC routers and plasma cutters. I haven't approached them yet, (I just thought of them yesterday), but even though its not what they do, I'd think they'd have the skill set necessary to take on something like this. Willingness is another story, and I understand if they told me to take a hike. Basically I'm looking for a one axis cnc.



Anybody have any other bright ideas?

Is anyone else surprised something like this doesn't exist yet? Seems it'd fit a niche.

[David Zaret]

check out aigner's solution to a digital outboard fence. it doesn't move itself, but it has a great digital scale. after years of using homemade solutions, we've settled on the aigner, and like it.

[Max Neu]

I would think the spacers would be accurate enough as long as they are made out of stable material like plastic or metal.This is assuming you have a way to get to a repeatable baseline with your fence.

[Mark Wooden]

Martin Wasner;

Is anyone else surprised something like this doesn't exist yet? Seems it'd fit a niche

In general, shaping to an outboard fence- where the material is trapped between the cutter and a fence- is considered dangerous as the possibility of overfeed/kickback/general mayhem is greatly increased, as opposed to shaping against the fence where the cut depth/chip is limited.
Out board fence use is an advanced operation on a shaper and I don't recommend it to anyone without a good amount of experience.
Simple fear of liability is one reason such set ups aren't widely marketed.
That being said-

An automatic fence for that application would probably get pretty pricey, pretty fast when you think of the pressure and wear it would be subject to. I hear you on improving the clamp to the table fence, I use the same thing when I need the outboard set up and am having the same thoughts. I did work in a shop that had a steel plate CNC/plasma cut with slots that we then bolted down to the table. Very workable, but still "tap to set" and even with lock washers on the bolts it would creep a little.. I'm thinking something similar that bolts to the front edge of the table, adjusted by screws (similar to the way a shaper fence adjusts) with maybe a DRO might be workable.

[Peter Quinn]

Martin, we had a long thread about this very subject going here a few years back, somebody had created a pretty good adjustable system with some fine machine threaded bolts, dial indicators, etc. Not fully automated like some of the real high tech stuff, but highly repeatable and accurate. Worth a search if it's on your mind. I too have always invisioned a quick to places And highly repeatable set up. My usual mo is what ever piece of scrap ply or solid reaches my hands first. I set the outfeed fence flush to the cutter like a regular split fence set up, rip a guage block that equals my desired final width, push my out board fend up to that.....a pair of dial calipers, I'm within thousands in under minutes. We got an older sac last year with the table tapped for a bolt on tenon sliding jig, I made a piece of ply with a hard maple edge, slotted the ply so I can adjust in and out towards the fence, that is much easier to clamp to the table, those Italian shapers don't ever seem to have a good place to clamp a fence.

I do side jobs with a guy whose shaper has a miters lot, he made some MDF jigs that reference the miter slot, he has them for all his typical widths and for face frame widths too, he sets up really fast with those. He uses all freeborn tooling with consistent diameter so every jig works for every door set.

I'd be real interested to see what you come up with if this goes forward. Seems like you would still have to set a fence to the cutter then zero the back fence to that before pulling back to desired depth.


Mark.....dude....what are you talking about? This is pretty much SOP in most shops I've worked, Martin makes a back fence, weaver makes a back fence, used to be a regular here named Chip that had a good setup to hand feed off the back fence with shape type guards and pressure boards, might have been a weaver set up too. This is not a 101 technique, there is a potential to create a board chucked if done wrong or on too small parts. I prefer to use a feeder, and for that it's real quick and very safe assuming a qualified operator....and Martin is definetly a qualified operator.

[Max Neu]

Martin,
What type of planer do you have?Have you considered using your planer for dimensioning stock instead?I have a CNC'ed fence on my Martin shaper with accuracy probably +/- .0001",but I still prefer to use my planer with a Byrd head to dimension stock to width.With the Byrd head,or something similar,you won't get any tearout.Even with a super accurate shaper fence,you are still at the mercy of the feeder keeping the stock against the fence,which would be fine in a perfect world where every piece is straight as an arrow.I usually run 3-4 pcs. at a time through the planer with no jig,alot faster and way more accurate/consistant than trying to do it on a shaper.Also,that's an easy machine to add digital readouts to also.

[Martin Wasner]

I've got a garbage yellow Grizzly with the curved knives. It'll be a while before I can dump that unless I find a smoking deal on a good one. It's tired but we also don't use it for a heck of a lot. I used to dimension everything in the planer, but I've got a four wing opposite shear straight cutter that does an amazing job. Parts tipping can be an issue as well creating an edge that isn't square in the planer. I did the same thing, I ran 4-5, (whatever I can grip well), at a time. That helps with keeping things square. Rare where it actually creates a serious problem, but the shaper is dead square. Zero snipe on the ends as well running the outboard fence. So long as there isn't material defects, the whole length is usable. A planer won't be able to dimension or create sticking either. I think I'm running 27ft/min on the power feed, (I don't remember for certain, might be 23), with 8' stock you're hopping to keep up choosing a face and edge to run and re-stacking. I tried running it faster, but it needed two people. I wasn't able to get a good enough cut at the speed required to justify a second body catching either.


I've looked at a lot of threads about this subject. The Aigner fence is pretty sweet, but I'm guessing I could get built what I want for $5k or less. I could be completely wrong on that too. The Tigerstop rip saw fence is about $4500 as a reference. Automation is where the speed will come from. Repeatability is priceless as well. It kills me having a tool running and not having lumber whizzing through. With the widebelt and the keypad on that, I've got the next number entered and ready to roll before the bed is clear. When the guy catching on the other side signals it's clear, I hit go and it's motoring to the next setting while we're jockeying carts. That's sorta how I envision a powered fence operating. When the last piece is loaded, punch in the next number, once it clears the cutter, hit go and keep on slamming material through without skipping a beat. You can grab and restock the last size while the next size is already running. That also requires going from small pieces to large, as there won't be room for the piece exiting the shaper and the fence going in towards the fixed fence when making large jumps in sizes.

Ideally this is a job handled by a moulder. Faster and as accurate as I'll ever need. Being I have zero interest in running our own mouldings, I don't know that we'll ever get one if it's just going to be used for door sticking and face frame stock. That's a pretty large expense for the task if you can't have it running either full time, or just a lot. Also a complicated piece of equipment that you can't explain how to operate in five minutes to the new guy. But, never know what will pop up for sale when the coffer is full either. I wouldn't say never, just unlikely in my case.

I've got to spend maybe $150 more to buy some plate aluminum to make the actual fence out of and create a way to attach it to the shaper and I can try out the 8020 option. I read a few threads on woodweb where guys had done that with positive results. I'm not super confident in it though. I know the one guy did it on a Powermatic 27, but the deck on that is maybe two feet wide, where my SCM is almost four feet. That leaves a lot of room not knowing where the other end is and relying on that linear bearing to hold things square and on the number. I could add a readout to both sides, but yikes, that seems like a step backwards in productivity.

Peter, you say such sweet things. lol I've got all my plates or shims made. The fixed part stays clamped as this shaper doesn't get torn down very often. I use two actually for sizing. One which is either +1/16" or +0", then the correct size shim. So if I want a part to be 2-1/4", I rip it at 2-3/8", use the 2-1/4" spacer and the +1/16" spacer so I get a part that is 2-5/16" on my first pass. Swap the +1/16" spacer for the +0" spacer and make my second pass to get it to 2-1/4". My straight cutter is the same diameter as the minor diameter of my sticking heads. So the same spacers work for everything. Changing sizes right now is super quick, but not as quick as punching in a number while it's still doing it's job, then hitting enter at the appropriate time. I don't think zero-ing the fence will be difficult either. In the case of my widebelt controller, it's just a matter of running a piece through, measuring it with calipers, then entering that number into the appropriate sub-menu.

Mark, I've never once had anything come flying out using a powerfeed and an outboard fence. Unless a piece explodes because of a crack or something, but that's short lived. The normal fixed fence is about an 1/8" from the stock being fed into it if correctly ripped, so I can't really bit off more than the 9hp shaper with a four wheel feeder and insert tooling is capable of. I'm with Peter, pretty standard practice in many shops.

[Max Neu]

When I first started using the planer to dimension stock,I was constantly checking for square,but after a while and never having a problem,I quit checking.The key is to leave it thick so there is more surface area on the table,I run them through at 7/8",then do the thickness dimensioning afterwards,as long as we have square edges going in,we get square edges coming out.For face frame material,I rip everything about 1/8" oversized then shave a 1/16" off 1 edge,then flip and run to final dimension.For sticking,I rip about 1/8" oversized,shave 1/16" off with the planer,then run the other edge through the shaper with the infeed fence set back 1/16".This way I get final dimensioned sticking with 2 clean edges,we build our doors to final dimensions (unless doing inset doors),so all we have to do is bump the end grains with the edge sander. I do get snipe on the ends from the planer,but I alway's cut back a few inches anyway on an uncut piece to avoid having issues with end cracks,so I don't feel like I'm losing much,if any material.I know the shaper can run faster,but I think the planer more than makes up for it in quantity by running 4-5 pcs. at a time.

[Mark Wooden]

Peter Quinn

Mark.....dude....what are you talking about?

Peter...dude...what I'm talking about is it is still an advanced operating procedure and I don't care how many shops use it, it doesn't change the fact that it can be dangerous. I was taught how to set up to size and shape in one pass with an outboard fence over 30 years ago, and can still count all the way to 10 on two hands.I've work with a few shops that don't allow it, period. I feel I can warn about the dangers of the operation with qualification.
I never said that Martin was either not qualified or experienced; he very obviously is by the simple statement of how he sets up the regular fence during the operation to limit depth of cut in the case of an errant feed. Kudos to him.
I make the warning so someone new to shaper technique and safety doesn't think they can "do like the pros on the Internet said" and ruin stock, break a machine or worst of all, themselves. And running stock to an outboard fence by hand is dancing on the edge a razor blade....

[Richard McComas]

Perhaps there some here that helps.

http://www.woodweb.com/galleries/shopbuilt/posts/43.html

[Martin Wasner]

. And running stock to an outboard fence by hand is dancing on the edge a razor blade....

I pretty much poop myself every time I have to run anything through a shaper by handed. Arched rails suck, inside arched raised panels are another animal.

The first cabinet shop I worker at didn't have a powerfeed on anything. How everyone kept their fingers is a miracle.

[Justin Ludwig]

I planed and sanded a piece of solid stock that sits up in my miter slot +3/4 over the table. The outfeed fence butts up to it and is then clamped. It can't get pushed backward now matter how much angle on my feeder I place. I S4S my door stock +1/16 width and let the cutters clean the last bit off. I make my back fences out of mdf and laminate them. Humidity in southern Arkansas during the summer is only trumped by the delta. I have no worries for my jigs and fences swelling/contracting on me doing it this way. Everything is based off my miter slot and that piece of stock.

I save my fences and label them with a sharpie for which cutter set they belong. When changing sticks cuts from a normal door to a 1.5" railed drawer, I add my spacers between the miter stock and the back fence and I'm cutting again within a minute. For 5" bottom rails, I can change to that fence in a minute. Repeatable and safe. I have a 3 wheel feeder and can stick cut pieces as short as 6". Anything smaller and I cut to length after sticking. I have profiled pieces for coping super short rails on a modified Weaver cope jig.

I only have one 5hp shaper, so down time has to be reduced in change over. I just build on my limited knowledge and try to make things faster and maintain safety. I spin my spindle nuts on and off with an impact. No more wrenches. SO much faster.

[Joe Calhoon]

I have used outside fences in almost every form from shop made, Weaver and Aigner. As a side note I don't think the Aigner is the best solution for cabinet doors. It is designed for the window and door trade. I think Whinmatic (sp) makes a nice one for cabinet parts. Setup right it is very safe and parts can be hand fed with safety although we never hand feed with it.
Here are a few pictures from our shop.

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Here is one where we mitered and splined 16' beam wraps 16" wide using a shop made fence.
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Running short parts safely as a train and milling 3" thick stiles one pass
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And last from a show in Italy with stock outboard fences.
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[Martin Wasner]

When I first started using the planer to dimension stock,I was constantly checking for square,but after a while and never having a problem,I quit checking.The key is to leave it thick so there is more surface area on the table,I run them through at 7/8",then do the thickness dimensioning afterwards,as long as we have square edges going in,we get square edges coming out.For face frame material,I rip everything about 1/8" oversized then shave a 1/16" off 1 edge,then flip and run to final dimension.For sticking,I rip about 1/8" oversized,shave 1/16" off with the planer,then run the other edge through the shaper with the infeed fence set back 1/16".This way I get final dimensioned sticking with 2 clean edges,we build our doors to final dimensions (unless doing inset doors),so all we have to do is bump the end grains with the edge sander. I do get snipe on the ends from the planer,but I alway's cut back a few inches anyway on an uncut piece to avoid having issues with end cracks,so I don't feel like I'm losing much,if any material.I know the shaper can run faster,but I think the planer more than makes up for it in quantity by running 4-5 pcs. at a time.

I get what you're saying, basically exactly what I used to do. I'd maybe feel differently having a better planer too. Mine is Scott done. I used to size door stock before the sticking cut in the planer so I had two clean edges as well. But, you're making extra cuts that can be avoided. A guy who builds only doors pointed that out to me. Somewhere shortly after that is when I started sizing the sticking on the shaper. Wasn't long after that I started doing all my r&s for frames as well. I run full lengths doing sticking, and cope after after cutting to length. I've got separate shapers set up to do left and right copes

First cut on a piece I'll check the drop for checking or cracks and keep having away until I've got clean material. I try to do not much more than an inch or two, but when you're running short on material and you can get away with cutting almost to the end to get another part, it's nice being able to do so.

Buying the material just skip planed is an interesting idea. The extra thickness would certainly help with staying square. Like I said, not a huge problem usually. I typically had problems with larger stuff, like 4" or larger. But, back to my planer being a dumper.

[peter gagliardi]

Interesting reading how everyone does it a bit different.
I have been doing kitchens for about 20-25 years now. Started on a PM 27 shaper, outgrew it and went to an SAC slider, outgrew that, and ended up with a Martin T26. In all those years, i have used an outboard fence only a handful of times.
I just dont see the need most of the time.
I have often used the planer to dimension door parts to width, though not always.
My favored method so far is to first rough rip out "x" amount of lineal feet of stile and rail stock, before surfacing.
Then i joint and plane the opposing faces to 1/32" over thickness.
I then set the shaper up with a straight cutter- usually a chicklet style insert head like the jointer with offset fences.
Take about 1/8" cut to get 1 straight edge.
Cut to exact length for overlay, or +1/16" if inset. Rip at same time to 1/32" over for inset or overlay.
Set offset fences for sticking to take 1/32" off for overlay on shaper. Inset is usually beaded.
Once off shaper, overlay door parts are "to size" for glue up.
Almost always, i use the fence/table interface to my advantage, and i get ideal dust collection without auxiliary hoods.
I am self taught, never worked in a bigger shop under others, so that is the system i developed.

It appears you might be saving one step over my process?

[Joe Calhoon]

Lot of pro and con to using the outside fence v.s. split fence. For pro I like the outside fence for window parts where clearance between frame and sash has to be fairly precise. There is no fiddling to get a snipe free cut with the outside fence. With the split fence sometimes you get wedges even when the cut is snipe free. For example on a 30" long part it could measure 1/64" or so different from one end to the other. Not a problem for a lot of products but in windows and some doors where fit between frame and sash is critical this can add up. Outside fence is also good for short parts and narrow parts.
The big disadvantage to the outside is you have to keep moving the fence for different widths. Sometimes when doing house doors where the parts are longer and a lot of different widths we use the split fence just to avoid this. Dust collection is a little better with the split fence.

Peter, I am supprised you do not use your Weinig to S4S stock? The planers we had early on did not run stock on edge very well and we used the outside shaper fence to get precise widths. It is a lot of extra work though. If you process much solid work a small through feed moulder or S4S machine will pay for itself in a hurry. I would say ours had the quickest ROI of any machine purchased.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA-BosQ06Ew

[Randy Henry]

My set up is not as high tech as what you are wanting, but it's very simple. My outboard fence is secured on both ends in a t-track, with a rule in the other slot. I only use Freeborn cutters, so, I just set the fence on both ends at whatever width I desire, tighten the knob, and go. The actual fence is a piece of 1/4" x 2" flat aluminum. It's pretty fool proof. I attached the t-track to my shaper by using a piece of angle iron under the track. I believe the t-track is the Incra dual track.

[Max Neu]

It is interesting to hear about all the different way's we prepare/dimension stock,from one shop to another.I also build doors like Martin,by running sticking with full length material,then cut to length and cope with left and right cutters.The sticking process is the only time I am dimensioning with the shaper by running the inboard fence back 1/16" after being precisely oversized with the planer.I don't feel like my system is perfect by any means,just an OK way of getting around not having a moulder.I wouldn't be opposed to dimensioning with a shaper and outboard fence,but I alway's struggled getting perfectly dimensioned stock when running long pieces 10'-12' lengths that aren't perfectly straight.Would a shorter outboard fence be better than a long one to deal with that problem?

[Brad Shipton]

I built on like David Best mentioned. It was not that difficult.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Shop/DSC02586-sm.jpg

[peter gagliardi]

Lot of pro and con to using the outside fence v.s. split fence.

Peter, I am supprised you do not use your Weinig to S4S stock?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA-BosQ06Ew

Joe, no special reason.
I guess some of it is that in my experience, the molder does not make flat and straight to the same degree as a jointer and planer can. It makes stock somewhat flatter and straighter. Even thought the euro hinges allow for enough adjustment for a fairly grossly unflat door to be able to operate in a less than ideal plane with the face frame.

Also, i tend to work thru and develop a system with as accurate and reproducible results as possible without having to constantly recheck my results in process, and this seems to have worked to that end. Its hard to overcome the inertia of a working process enough to think about change if it aint broke.

Certainly my molder is well under used.

Occasionally, i have had stock come away from the outboard fence, even with the feeder at the appropriate pressure and angle, and cut deeper into the good stock much worse than a tiny amount of snipe with the split fence. Dont know why, or how, but in my experience it has happened.

I do often think there are better ways for some processes, and it would have been good to get experience in a few bigger shops, but.....

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Peter . No matter how expensive the best moulders are they are no match for straightening by some one who will put down the cell phone and use the jointer and planer while looking at the wood and making instant good decisions as to what needs to go and what needs to stay. In my experience every advance in moulders is eaten up by lazy operators. And the piles of moulder run pieces too crooked to use are piled all over or toted off for someone's fireplace.

[Martin Wasner]

,but I alway's struggled getting perfectly dimensioned stock when running long pieces 10'-12' lengths that aren't perfectly straight.Would a shorter outboard fence be better than a long one to deal with that problem?


Personally I think longer is better for the fence. I do the sticking cut first and crown the material as I'm feeding it. I'm not a huge fan of choosing an edge based on which way it wanders though for doors. Making S4S it doesn't matter. You want the crown towards the cutter, so if there's a gap between the material and the outboard fence on the first cut, it will not be there on the sizing cut as it will stay consistently tight to the outboard fence on the finished size cut. If the crown was so severe that it's actually under sized on the first cut it's a problem. That doesn't happen too often to me. Last week I ran about 1000' of sticking and face frame material, I'd bet there was less than 10' where this was the case. If something comes off the saw really wacky, I'll joint it straight, if it can't be door part, it can be shelved for something else. There's a diminishing return on the cost of fighting lumber and the cost of pitching material obviously.

Getting material at 15/16" and face jointing everything is superior for giving you flat parts, but man that's a lot of labor. I sort all my sticking for straightness once done before cutting them up. The best stuff goes into the larger doors, the trash goes into paneled ends where it has box work to hold it, or into drawer fronts where the drawer box will hold it straight or the parts are short. I basically refuse to do mahogany because the boards carry so much tension you have to over size everything so much then bring it in to where you want. Pretty wood, but very labor intensive to do well on any sort of scale.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, no special reason.
I guess some of it is that in my experience, the molder does not make flat and straight to the same degree as a jointer and planer can. It makes stock somewhat flatter and straighter. Even thought the euro hinges allow for enough adjustment for a fairly grossly unflat door to be able to operate in a less than ideal plane with the face frame.

Also, i tend to work thru and develop a system with as accurate and reproducible results as possible without having to constantly recheck my results in process, and this seems to have worked to that end. Its hard to overcome the inertia of a working process enough to think about change if it aint broke.

Certainly my molder is well under used.

Occasionally, i have had stock come away from the outboard fence, even with the feeder at the appropriate pressure and angle, and cut deeper into the good stock much worse than a tiny amount of snipe with the split fence. Dont know why, or how, but in my experience it has happened.

I do often think there are better ways for some processes, and it would have been good to get experience in a few bigger shops, but.....

Peter, the T90 is more of a S4S machine than a moulder. It has a 80" jointer table and edging fence on the infeed with adjustable pressure or no pressure down at the start. So it is like using a jointer with a power feed or with the rollers lifted like hand facing. That said we still hand face critical parts one time on the jointer by hand. On the edges though it will take bow out with no issue. Our stock comes off the straight line rip so edges are pretty straight. Cabinet stiles and rails we usually take 4/4 or 5/4 hit and miss long stock, straighten one edge on the rip saw and then rip 1/4" over. If the stock is bowed or twisted we cut to rough length and face on the jointer before going through the machine. If the stock is pretty flat we go straight to the S4S machine. Even with a little facing it saves a lot of work and we get perfectly dimensioned parts.
Your Weinig I believe works similar? Except you have to put in straight heads and make sure they are calibrated. With the fixed Tersa heads the T90 is always ready to go even for one piece but the fixed heads are what makes it weak as a all out moulder. The old push feed molders did not have the ability to straighten.

On the outboard fence I always use the pressure springs to push back against the fence. Some people do not use these but like you I have experienced creeping away without them. The other option is to pull tight against the stock with the infeed fence but this requires perfect S4Sed stock.

[Martin Wasner]

I stopped by the local company that builds cnc's. They weren't interested in tying up shop time for a custom project, but they were very helpful in giving advice and offered to help me source parts. The assembly with ball screw drives and stepper motors with linear bearings they use for the Z axis on their routers I think will work well mounted on each side. $950 a pop for those without motors, I'd need one mounted on each side. Still have to sort out the controller. I've got a acquaintance that deals with control systems that I sent a message to wondering if he's interested in a side job.

[Don Sundberg]

I don't know if it would be heavy enough for commercial use but these guys make a router fence that does what you want. You may be able to adapt one or two (one on each end) to a custom outboard fence.

http://shop.nextwaveautomation.com/shop/category.aspx/ready2rout-ready2lift/7/

[Martin Wasner]

I don't know if it would be heavy enough for commercial use but these guys make a router fence that does what you want. You may be able to adapt one or two (one on each end) to a custom outboard fence.

http://shop.nextwaveautomation.com/shop/category.aspx/ready2rout-ready2lift/7/

Yeah, I think we'd break that pretty quickly. Cool idea though. And pretty similar in concept to what I want to accomplish, just on a heavier scale. I like the idea of a lower profile and mounted to the sides of the shaper. It's also a little short on travel, (I think the video said 8"). I'd like to get 12" of travel out of my fence. Pretty rare that I need to run anything much wider than 8", but it'd be nice to have the option. I've been debating about using this setup to finish size drawer parts as well since the cut coming off that four wing straight cutter is so unbelievably good. Most of my drawers are 8-1/4" tall or less typically, but occasionally much larger. But that won't be that critical until I get a proper dovetail machine and I can cease to make my drawer parts oversized then cutting them down after pins/tails have been cut.


As a side note, there's a video on there of a guy doing a review on that fence, I've watched a handful of his videos as he's an avid RC pilot and owns some planes that I either own or was considering purchasing. The internet is a small world.


Possibly I should contact them as well if my current course of action doesn't yield any results. I really can't believe there isn't something like this already commercially available. The number of small shops that can't justify a moulder could really benefit from a setup like this. It won't be cheap, but nothing is.

[peter gagliardi]

Martin, at the prices you have above- roughly 2k with no labor/engineering/machine work, i think you are running right up against why no one has done it yet. The costs dont justify the expenditure over other options, like a small molder possibly, or....
Me personally, based on my equipment would have a hard time going that route , even if my molder didnt exist. A good and accurate normal fence like most Euro style units, even not including the Aigner set up offset style like jointer tables goes a looong way towards discouraging looking further into it i would guess.
Small shops are always chasing a way to "shave the clock" so to speak with a very limited budget. 2-4k can buy a very useful used machine to "save time" on another process i suspect.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm thinking all said and done it'll be close to $6k. Still seems cheap to me when most small moulders won't open up that much and I'm looking at a lot more money for a moulder, plus the floor space which is always in short supply. Moulder would be the way to rock it, but I don't have the space or the sixty grand for a mid line six head moulder.

My current setup probably results in 45 seconds of running but empty machine to change sizes, if I can get that down to 15 seconds and it is done say 60 times a week by an employee making $25 dollars an hour, that saves me half an hour a week in labor I have to pay for that isn't productive. Not a lot saving only $12.50 per week, but that's $650 a year, and I'm probably being light on the size changes. That's money out of my pocket.

[J.R. Rutter]

You could keep an eye out for an SCM Class shaper with section table. They seem to go for around $10K, but offer lots of benefits besides being able to bolt a fence to the movable table.

[Martin Wasner]

An update.

I don't have much going on right now, we're in a bit of a lull. I started screwing around with the fence project again since I had the parts to do it. I figured worse case scenario, It's a bit cleaner than having the giant C-clamps holding the fixed fence down.

Originally I was thinking that I was going to have to mount the extrusion to a piece of plate, then bolt the plate to the shaper. Looking at it closer, I was able to just bolt the 80/20 extrusion right to the side of the shaper. I just drilled holes where there wasn't any gussets in the casting and bolted through to the T-nuts that slip into the slot in the extrusion. I think I may take those out and use carriage bolts instead. That way I can put a nylock nut on there. The SCMi doesn't vibrate too much, but time is the enemy of all things mechanical...

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12798860_10207346234845340_4017661634924938322_n.j pg?oh=8133209f5a46e01287619bc9318cb4a0&oe=575E3A3F

The linear carriages come with shims that you can use to get the fitment of the pads nice and tight. Didn't take too long, and I had a pretty solid fit on each of them. The piece of Baltic Birch acting as the fence is temporary just so I could mock up everything. I stopped by a fabricators earlier today, they're going to cut a piece of aluminum plate and run a rabbet in one edge so I can put a piece of UHMW for a wear strip for the material to ride on.

I re-cut the UHMW for the deck of the shaper as well. The previous set up, it was just held in place by a couple of pieces of wood on the end lapping over the edge so it didn't slide around. The new setup I cut a piece of Baltic Birch to fit in the table slot and just put five small countersunk screws in through the plastic. The 80/20 extrusions hold it in from sliding around. I measured how much travel I'll have, but I don't remember exactly how much, I think it was about 9-1/2".

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I bought a Wixey digit read out for a planer. I had hopes that the setup would be rigid enough where I could get repeatable numbers just using the one side, but it's not going to work. I'm going to have to add a second one to the opposite side to get repeatable results. It'll be a pain in the rear reading two readouts, but I don't think it'll be too bad once you get used to it. I'm really hoping this will take care of the discrepancies that would happen from the changes in the spacers with weather. It took some head scratching to figure out a decent way to mount the digital read out, the nice thing with the 80/20 extrusions is there is plenty of places to attach things. As to the speed, I think the way I was doing it with the fixed fence and a pile of spacers will actually be faster, but this will be much more accurate and repeatable. I'm going to keep pressing forward on the idea of making the fence automated, but it's going to be a while before that all comes together.

[Ken Grant]

Thanks for the update and pictures. I have been following this with interest. I am currently in the pile of spacers camp, but this would be sweet for those times when you need a non-standard width part(aka don't have a spacer for that size). Does it lock down solid enough to not worry about it moving-say it gets bumped or you have a long run with too much angle on the power feeder?

[Martin Wasner]

Thanks for the update and pictures. I have been following this with interest. I am currently in the pile of spacers camp, but this would be sweet for those times when you need a non-standard width part(aka don't have a spacer for that size). Does it lock down solid enough to not worry about it moving-say it gets bumped or you have a long run with too much angle on the power feeder?


I was a little concerned with it moving from the power feed pressure, but I just did a small test run with it, and it seems to hold just fine. I don't have a huge amount of kick on the power feeder, it's about an inch difference between the leading wheel and the trailing wheel on a four wheel feeder. Time will tell with that though, aluminum is soft and it may start having problems in the long run. The brake is nothing more than a handle on a nut that pulls a carriage bolt against the inside of the extrusion.

The test did confirm that the racking of between the two rails is too much to not have a second digital readout on the left side. I was hoping it would work well, but the pessimist in me knew it wouldn't. This SCM shaper has a 47" deck. That's a long ways compared to a smaller shaper like a I was confident enough in the lack of rigidity that I ordered another Wixey gauge off of Amazon this morning on my way to work before I even did a test run. I'm not sure the aluminum plate will that will replace the current Baltic Birch fence will do anything to improve that either. I think if I would've dropped $500 per side for some really good, actual linear bearings that may not be the case. But if I'm going to spend that kind of money, I might as well bite the bullet and go all the way with the automated setup.


When I met with the local company that builds CNC's I failed to ask them if their control software would work on different platforms. I really don't like the idea of having an actual computer sitting there if it is at all possible to run it on either a tablet or something cheap like a Chromebook. I seriously doubt that is the case though. At this point somebody has probably made some software to do it though on Android, IOS, etc. I would much prefer that just for space issues. But, a small notebook computer can be bought pretty cheaply too.


I really want to move forward on the automated fence, the funds just aren't there at the moment for that. I'm looking at an automatic dovetailer on an auction, and that's going to be a decent amount of money I really shouldn't be spending right now as the new shop costs are climbing rapidly, and I haven't even broken ground yet. Hopefully this will get me by for a couple of years. Long term I'd like to have a pair of shapers with a pair of these fences. One just for sticking cuts, the other with just a straight cutter in it. I think if I place them correctly one guy could operate both at the same time.

[J.R. Rutter]

I don't have a huge amount of kick on the power feeder, it's about an inch difference between the leading wheel and the trailing wheel on a four wheel feeder.

That seems like a lot to me, but if it ain't broke...


Long term I'd like to have a pair of shapers with a pair of these fences. One just for sticking cuts, the other with just a straight cutter in it. I think if I place them correctly one guy could operate both at the same time.

A small moulder might give you a lot of other capabilities, even an S4S machine like a Sintex. Get final dimension in one pass as well as mild flattening/straightening.

I like the way the fence turned out. Good job with those extrusions and overall concept.

[Martin Wasner]

A small moulder might give you a lot of other capabilities, even an S4S machine like a Sintex. Get final dimension in one pass as well as mild flattening/straightening.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's a trip down the rabbit hole. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but if you're going to buy a moulder, buy a moulder. A five or a six head then you can doing S4S, and sticking, but also mouldings. The mouldings is where things start getting expensive. Tooling, sharpening, and you basically need someone on that hombre full time and it's his baby. He knows the setups, does the sharpening and knows what adjustments are made when a knife changes, and just overall makes it tick. You can't just pull a guy off of doing whatever and do a run of crown. Then there's the issue of dust collection, big moulders running big moudings create big mountains of sawdust. I'm also just not there yet, but I haven't ruled it out either.

My favorite moulding provider just went under, I really wish I had another good source for crown.

Besides, when that time comes, there's always a home for another shaper doing something, or you thin the herd and get rid of the less than desirable or high time models. But, if the right one came along used, who knows. I've got a lot of plans, but they all take more money than I've got. :( I need to get an actual rip saw before that happens too. Pushing stuff through by hand is asinine, (even at our current production), a power feed is only marginally better.

[Joe Calhoon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=usa_YmhWTpE

I agree with JR. Our S4S machine made the biggest difference of any machine we installed in terms of increasing production. We waited 3 or so years to get a straight line. Once we had that I realized we should have done both at the same time.
1" is a lot and would tweak my outboard fence. I prefer to apply a little pressure from the side.

[Jeff Duncan]

OK maybe I missed it as I did;t go back to read earlier posts, but why couldn't you just use an aluminum plate with a couple slots perpendicular to the fence? Two holes into the shaper top and a couple bolt handles from MSC and your in business for next to nothing without all the extrusions to cause additional places for things to get sloppy.

Other than that I agree with you, a molder is a huge jump depending on what type and size shop you have. Besides the room needed, which is obviously a LOT, there's the power considerations. I'm a mostly one man shop and I go back and forth with whether or not to spend on a W&H type molder, or a larger heavier machine that's capable of moldings and curved work, like the Stegherr machines. I just feel like the W&H is really light duty and the Stegherr has too small of a width capacity. No way I'd get even a small 4 head in my little 2400 sf shop. So most of my moldings go flat against the fence, or subbed out to another shop.

anyway good luck,
JeffD

[Jared Sankovich]

If you decide to automate, this controller would do what you wanted. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/open-source-controller-boards/47007-rotary-table-indexer.html

It's originally for a rotary table, but programing for repeatable positions using two steppers/ball screws would be simple. Should be well under 1k.

[peter gagliardi]

The W&H doesn't look like much, but is a very capable machine for the footprint, cost, and power use. It is no Weinig for sure, but you can easily do just about anything in the kitchen cabinet scale of work. The newer variable speed unit is better for bigger stuff.
I don't use mine every day, but glad i have it.
You wont need a new molderman for crown if you get one. And anyone can set up and use it.

[J.R. Rutter]

Sorry for going off topic a bit here, but thought I would throw this out there since it sort of came up yesterday. People told me to get a rip saw for years before I could afford one. I thought that it would be too big, require too much power, take forever to pay for itself, etc. I can't imagine doing production stuff without one now. It is a serious money maker. You can always order in SL1E material, but I always seemed to have to re-rip a good portion of boards due to sap or other edge issues. The Extrema has been a good saw, one of the reasons I got it was 3 rows of anti-kickback fingers, and 4 top rollers for a decent glue line. Luckily, found one used at a time when I had good cash flow. I knocked out this cart of 120 odd strips (3 kitchens worth of door/drawer front parts) in the 2.5 hours before I went home yesterday, working solo, and didn't break a sweat.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3jef4c_WMH0/Vtn_IcudxJI/AAAAAAAAHco/Me5Qx45YY2M/s720-Ic42/IMG_4339.JPG

[peter gagliardi]

I too just got a small SLR. A Japanese unit by Kikukawa- excellent build quality, glue joint capable machine, and they can be had for $2-3k. Also badged under another name- LMC i believe, and parts are available.
We have had it about 2 months and have been cheating with an el cheapo laser setup. It is my PLS 180 unit for cabinet installs. Going to get a dedicated one shortly though.333057333058

Like JR said, fast!

[Martin Wasner]

Preaching to the choir on the rip saw. At the moment, nowhere to put one. In June, hopefully I'll have room. I've been looking at a Cantek if I go new. Not a great machine, but up to the task of my shop I'd think. I'd rather but a used Diehl or similar, but hard to know the history on older equipment.

[Joe Calhoon]

We ended up getting a import Oliver just based on the footprint. It's about the size of a unisaw. I think Cantec and Extrema are better but I have no complaints about the Oliver other than its a little awkward to change heights. The old US iron is the best but takes a huge amount of real estate. This one also has the 3 rows of kickback fingers. I would like a return conveyer but our space is tight. For breaking down units we play baseball with the roller conveyer. For one man ripping of small quantities we slide the roller table out of the way.
333068
We went from ripping on a table saw to a table saw with a feeder and then to our old slider fitted with a power feed. After getting the SLR it was day and night difference and really a must have with a S4S or moulder.

Ripping on a power fed bandsaw is a good way to go also. This is how most smaller shops in Europe break sown solids. This requires a S4S machine to clean up effectively though. We turn small off rips into glass beads and find re ripping these is easier on the band saw. I would recommend the band saw for ripping over a table saw.
333069
I don't think S4S machines are unreasonable for small shops working solid wood. You dont have to think big moulder. The disadvantage of bigger moulder for this you have to change over to straight knives for S4S. This takes a little time even on a Weinig and not convenient for small batches. Once you experience the quality of the finish coming out of these with insert carbide knives you will never want to go back.

They don't come up used often but Wadkin had a unique S4S machine for small shops called the PAR. It worked with just 2 Tersa heads requiring 2 passes through the machine. Good for a one man show.

[Martin Wasner]

Another update. I've had some time to use actually use it. The more familiar I get with it the more I like it.

I added the second digital read out because the racking between the linear guides was way too much to get anything accurate, and that would defeat the purpose of the whole project.

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When I was fiddling around with it, I was getting jumps in numbers. It would lose where it was and I would have to re-zero everything, which is kind of a pain in the rear to do. I blew out the sensors to see if there was a piece of aluminum shaving or something from drilling holes, but it didn't seem to help. Then it dawned on me that it might actually be a static issue. I read something in the manual about that, and figured that the current plywood fence sliding across the piece of UHMW that I decked the shaper with was a likely culprit. All of my dust collection is grounded, so I doubted that was the issue. I ended up just running a piece of wired from the 80/20 rail to the sensor rail to ground them out. It seems to have solved the problem, for the most part. Though yesterday the employee had an issue with it jumping numbers again. Right now the wire is just clamped on. I'm going to solder some eyes on to a piece of wire and bolt it down at some point. Right now it's a bit of a jury rig.

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The employee had a good idea though, since finding zero is a bit of a pain it needed a positive stop that you could push it up against so it wouldn't take long. You'd think you could do this quickly and easily just indexing it off of the cutter head, but I tried that and I wasn't real happy with the results. I'd end up always a little off and have to fine tune it after running a test piece. So the solution was to take a piece of aluminum bar stock and just bolt it down so the fence has something to bump into and you can zero it. The stop is currently sitting at 1", so you have to bump it up to the stop, and dial in the read out to 1". Long term I may move these further in. It's pretty rare that I run anything that small, but occasionally it does happen for making some smaller mouldings.

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As far as I'm concerned, this is still all in kind of the testing phase. But I am happy with the results so far. I will have to take the whole mess apart essentially and change out the fasteners that attach the rails to the deck of the shaper. I use the 80/20 nuts in the extrusion, and bolted through the sides into the extrusion. I want to reverse that an use a carriage bolt and put the nuts under the deck with a nylock nut, and a crush washer just for good measure. The way it is now, torque is the only thing holding those bolts in place. Eventually they will rattle loose. I still don't have my piece of aluminum plate for the fence either. When I get that I'm going to have to face the one edge of it with UHMW so there is no marking from the aluminum on the work piece, or erosion of the fence from having miles of material passing over it.

I want to say there's about $150 in 80/20 parts there. The digital read outs were something like $70 a piece off of Amazon. I'm not sure what the aluminum fence is going to cost. I'd be surprised if it was over $100 though. So I'll have something like $350-$400 into this setup. The UHMW for the deck I had on hand. I've got a bunch of the 80/20 fasteners already since it's like a grownups Erector Set, and I've used it for other things in the shop. There's maybe $10 worth of other fasteners on there as well. It's not as fast to change sizes as the spacers that I had before, but this is much cleaner, and it is as accurate and consistent as I need it to be at this point. I'm also getting better at hitting a number quickly than I was initially. Like anything, it takes practice, and time to grow accustomed to a new configuration. It's also really nice having a larger range of fence adjustment. Certain numbers that didn't have a spacer already cut for it, but wasn't worth making another, required some cheating with different spacers to get you were you needed to be. Now that issue is gone. It's not what I initally wanted, but it's a step up from where I was, and I will likely go the automated route sometime in the future. Even if I get a moulder, there's some stuff that just makes more sense to do on a shaper. Especially if setup is simple and fast.

[Martin Wasner]

I finally got my piece of aluminum for the actual fence itself. The fabricator had it done a long time ago, but nobody called and I just got a bill in the mail. Oh well, that's how it goes sometimes.

It's just a piece of 1/2" plate aluminum cut to length. I had them run a rabbet down the one edge in the mill so I could attach a piece of UHMW plastic to the working edge. They sent me a scrap of UHMW that was about 2-1/2" wide, I cut a rabbet in it with a router, then drilled my holes. I read the chart wrong and drilled the holes undersized in the aluminum, made it a bear to tap the holes. I figured it out after the second one, with the proper sized hole it went properly. Thankfully tapping aluminum is slightly more difficult than running a tap into sponge cake or a kitten. Had it been steel, it wouldn't have gone so well. I secured the plastic to the aluminum with some 10-32 button head screws. Then I just pushed the whole works through the tablesaw to leave a bit over an inch of plastic, then ran the working edge across the jointer. It's as straight as I need it to be.

Since I'm a psycho, I also polished the aluminum. about 20 minutes of sanding, 120g, 180g, 220g, 400g, 600g, then went to work on it with a fine Scotch pad in the orbital sander. Then a little bit of work with a Milwaukee polisher and it looks pretty good. I probably could've spent a few hours doing this, but the juice wasn't worth the squeeze to get a really good polish on it. I do wish I would've cleaned up the edges that are seen a bit more, but I like to pretend I have a life from time to time.

I think the new fence is definitely more stiff than the baltic birch I had on there as a temporary fence. I just did some test runs to get my readouts set and get my zero blocks set, but the movement seems better. That might be all in my head as well.

I swapped out all the fasteners like I had planned. Now the 80/20 extrusions are held in place with a lag bolt in the track, a washer on the inside and a nylock nut. Where the fence attaches to the the linear bearings, there is now 1/4"-20 button head screws with nylock nuts on the bottom. I wanted the top to be smooth as possible to keep anything from hanging up or causing problems.


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