The Japanese way ?

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Some where in a thread I read that the japanese are chopping their mortices in another way that western style woodworkers do. I tried to find it on Youtube, but maybe my IT fu is not good enough.

Anybody who can link to a video ?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm curious too, as they say you should never level with Japanese chisels...

[Mel Fulks]

Until there is a better answer...I once saw a TV documentary that showed them planeing the mortises ..no, not the tenons ,the mortises.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Until there is a better answer...I once saw a TV documentary that showed them planeing the mortises ..no, not the tenons ,the mortises.
This is like saying you saw a UFO!! what did you see?? :confused::eek:...... I think they use a chisel, maybe a planing chisel? :rolleyes: come to think of it:

Chop- pare ---> chop- pare (plane?) ---> finished mortise ?

[Brian Holcombe]

Maybe Stu or Stanley can weigh in with a more complete answer, however;

In my experience there are more tools involved, one being a bottom scraping chisel and the other being a spear chisel. I chop the mortises in the usual way, but without levering the waste. I then clear the waste with an awl. Toward the bottom I will use a bottom scraping chisel to hit the depth.

Japanese mortise chisels are laminated with very hard edges, it's too harsh on them to lever waste.

[Mel Fulks]

They were big mortises for a temple, agree Stanley will be some help here.

[Warren Mickley]

In 1978 I was taught to mortise by Daniel O'Hagan (1923-2000). We use a flat bevel and ride the bevel as much as possible in making the mortise. Toshio Odate, writing in fine woodworking around 1982 showed a similar technique of riding the bevel.

Recently there have been proponents of a very different style, where the bevel of the chisel is altered so most of the bevel is cut away and only the very tip has a bevel at the cutting angle. In this style chopping rides the back of the chisel, not the bevel. It could be that this is what you mean by "western style woodworkers", but I doubt that this is any kind of historical method. All of the historic engravings I have seen show a mortising chisel with a single bevel.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I think I have found the answer. Its not a japanese chisel, but a normal bevel edge, but it must be the same teknique Paul Sellers show here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA

[steven c newman]

Maybe not the japanese way, but...look up the videos put out by GE Hong. Don't have to translate what he is saying.....just sit back and watch.....

[Kenneth Fisher]

This might be interesting https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZsPs7jaPE

Looks like he starts in the middle of the mortise and works outward, if I remember right Paul Sellers starts on one end and works toward the other and then back again. I think both ways will get you a good mortise.

[Alfred Kraemer]

Lasse,

For me the method that Paul Sellers demonstrates works well - if one follows his approach very closely, I.e paring about 1/8 and doing so evenly. You may have noticed that in the demo he does run into some binding of the chisel. In my experience it isn't that bad unless you use a chisel that gets wider above the cutting edge. Another concern was not staying an 90 deg with the chisel edge at the marking line of the mortise. Also not a big problem if one corrects with the following cut of the chisel.
All in all, a good method demoed by a fine teacher of woodworking but one has to pay attention to the details.



Alfred

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

This might be interesting https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZsPs7jaPE

Looks like he starts in the middle of the mortise and works outward, if I remember right Paul Sellers starts on one end and works toward the other and then back again. I think both ways will get you a good mortise.


He is not fooling around, just get to work and get it done :) Looks like Chinese chisels is ok to pry with.

[Charles Guest]

He is not fooling around, just get to work and get it done :) Looks like Chinese chisels is ok to pry with.

Less than 20 seconds into that video I knew I was going to see work getting done without much frou-frou. The shop tells you all you need to know. That's not the workspace of a guy who flits around getting little done in a day.

Thanks to the person who posted this.

[Brian Holcombe]

I like that guy, he seems to get right to work.

I saw one video where he was cutting a half lap....It was impressive and accurate, especially for quick work.

[steven c newman]

If you continue along with these shows...and sit back and watch the one about an edge plane......you might be able to make one of these..
329194
I didn't have any "Rose wood", and mine is for the right hand, his is for the left. Iron is an old skew chisel....cut down from a Harbor Freight lathe chisel.
329195
Be careful cutting the slots in the fence....first one I did, snapped the end off. Leave a bit long on each end. That wedge is a bear to get just right...6 hours to make one?

[Zuye Zheng]

This might be interesting https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZsPs7jaPE

Looks like he starts in the middle of the mortise and works outward, if I remember right Paul Sellers starts on one end and works toward the other and then back again. I think both ways will get you a good mortise.

The guy is like loud Chinese Paul Sellers, doesn't mess around, and has interesting side comments about life and hand tools. Here is another video where he goes into more detail about chopping a mortise with a close up. Seems to start on one end though.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VrjtTnubGmQ

I like where he uses a screw driver pounded into his workbench as a stop.

[Stanley Covington]

Some where in a thread I read that the japanese are chopping their mortices in another way that western style woodworkers do. I tried to find it on Youtube, but maybe my IT fu is not good enough.

Lasse:

I don’t know of a suitable video. There are lots of videos on mortising on YouTube, but the clear ones focus on the rougher methods used in carpentry.

There are two types of mortising commonly seen in Japan, in my experience.

1. The Carpentry Mortise. Speed is more important than precision, and the material being cut can handle some abuse, such as chisel cutting with the grain, without splitting. Think "timber frame" or timber fence. Layout is made with a square (sashigane) and bamboo pen (sumisashi). Tolerances can be a bit low, but a skilled carpenter can get pretty good accuracy even with this wider line. These mortices are cut by first chiseling all 4 sides of the mortise, and then chopping out the waste. A V cut is usually made in the centre of the mortise, and the ends cleaned up last. The sides are cleaned up (pared with hammer and chisel) every few cuts as the depth increases. For mortises in smaller pieces, such as doors or cabinets, this method can easily split the wood, ergo, the 2nd method below.

2. The Joinery Mortise. Used for more delicate members, and where precision is more important than speed. This mortice is layed out with a steel square, marking gages, and a marking knife. A V is cut almost to the bottom. The sides are not worked unless the fibers are intertwined, and the chips don't come free. The ends are left a few thousandths fat, and the chisel (often a sukinomi) is used to pare to this line. In some cases, and in softer woods, the ends are not pared square with the surface, but slope to the centre so the end of the tenon is compressed when driven home. A sokozarai nomi ("bottom scraper chisel") is used to clean out waste, tidy up the corners, and shave the bottom to the proper depth. In the case of shoji, the thickness of the wood remaining at the bottom of the mortise may be only 0.05 millimetre (light will shine through), so precision and this specialised chisel are indispensible.

There are other specialised tools such as mori nomi and kama nomi used for special applications. If you cut lots and lots of small mortises in softwoods, as in the case of shoji or latticework, then a mori nomi (translated as "harpoon chisel") is invaluable for speed. With practice, a properly set-up and sharp mori nomi can cut small mortises in three strokes. Mori nomi sold new are less than useless however (as are sokozarai nomi) and need to be modified to get satisfactory results.

The kama nomi ("sickle chisel") is intended for cleaning up one particular joint unique to shoji and fusuma, and while it has other applications, it is seldom used for standard mortises.

Stan

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Thanks Stan :)