Hammer K3 OR SawStop ICS

[Dan Schmidt]

Looking for best table saw setup I can get for less than $7000. I was about to pull the trigger on a SawStop ICS. Loaded with the 5HP motor, 52" fence, mobile base, overarm dust collection, and sliding table it totals $6246 on Amazon Prime (free shipping).
Then I saw a friends Hammer K3 Winner. The largest slider (79x48), mobility kit, and eccentric clamp would total $5814, but with shipping it would likely be at parity with the SawStop.

I like the idea of the SawStop safety feature, but the sliders are inherently safer than a traditional saw, and I want the best functionality as well. Looking for feedback from any of you; especially if you've used both.

[Susumu Mori]

I'm in Hammer camp. My experience with other TS are limited to a small TS. So, can't give you comparison with real cabinet saws, but I can see European sliders are really fantastic for anything long and/or wide.

Straight-line first rip, crosscuts of long boards, dimensioning table tops, sheets, are really excellent with the slider. All these work happens in the left side of the blade and I can keep comfortable distances. I recently did a lot of miter cuts of long stocks and the ease and accuracy are just fantastic. All parallel, perpendicular, and miters are dead-on. When it is delivered, you can see numerous small stickers on every single adjustable places confirming the setup. Very impressive.

So, far the only thing I found that Saw Stop could be clearly safer is the second parallel rip, which takes place at the right side of the blade against the rip fence. I have no problem doing it with Hammer just like regular cabinet saws but Hammers don't have the safety feature of Saw Stop. There are ways to do the second rip using the slider, but so far I found the traditional ripping using the rip fence is the simplest and most accurate. Other people may find it in different ways. For narrow second rip, which is nerve wracking for me, people may venture to do it using Saw Stop relying on the safety feature, but I would use my bandsaw for that.

One interesting difference is, I believe European TS spins faster (please correct me if I'm wrong). I've never done quantitative comparison but I feel cabinet saws are bit quieter. Another point to add is, zero-clearance plate is more difficult to make for sliders.

A couple of suggestions if you look into Hammer. The out rigger is REALLY great! The addition of shaper is VERY cool, but then soon you will find out that European machines start where cabinet saws end in terms of price.....:(

[Patrick Walsh]

If you find yourself wanting for a slider now just hunker down and make it happen. I have the ICS, i got it used for a steal. I love the saw i cant find a thing to complain about with regard to it. It's actaully a really really nice machine.

I like you however wanted a slider when i made the purchase but could not afford one at the time. Again at $1600 i could not pass on the SawStop.

Now having many of the bigger tool purchases for my shop my mind is wandering back to a slider. I will buy one probably about this time next year. You can find a nice 700 series Felder used for the 7K range if you are patient and pay attention to the fourums and auction houses.

I myself will purchase either a used machine from a reputable owner as i have a couple Felder machines now. Or a new 900 series or Format saw, maybe a Martin?

I'm not trying to talk you out of the SawStop, again its a great saw. Im just saying dont settle or you will regret it.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I'm like Susumu, a Hammer owner. Back then, I looked at Sawstop, Powermatic, Delta, and Grizzly cabinet table saws. The SS technology is interesting, but not for me. One of my motivations at the time was a saw that helps me to process a lot of sheet goods quickly and accurately. I discovered sliding table saws and the European brands. I ended up with a Hammer K3 with a 79" sliding table.

The sliding table saw feels safer than the NA cabinet saws because I no longer stand at the front of the blade, thus in direct line of a kicking-back projectile. The only time I feel uneasy is with second parallel rip cut of thin stock (<2" wide), but there are ways to work around this. I use a jig which eliminates my hands having to be any where near the spinning blade. The method of work on a slider is very different vs. a NA cabinet saw. Setting up the slider is also more complicated than the NA cabinet saw. I am still working on the setting up part because I am particular and wants things to be precise.

Cutting plywood for boxes, cabinets, built-ins, drawer bottoms is fast, consistent, accurate (once set up dialed in), and a joy (especially with multiple flip stops). The 79" slider can't rip a 4x8 plywood sheet down the long edge, but can do 5x5 BB plywood with ease (just finish cutting a bunch of 6mm BB ply for drawer bottoms, took about an hour to cut up 5 sheets to various sizes). The scoring blade gives you perfect edge, tear-out free. With the rip fence set up properly, the slider works like a cabinet saw if one prefers that side of the blade. I now use the out-rigger table and sliding table predominantly.

Dado toolings can be bought from Felder, Forrest, or FS tools (I use FS tools). There is an extra charge to bore for Felder arbor and pins; ~$40.

Dust collection is excellent. I have only clean the cabinet twice in the last year. The amount of saw dust accumulated was not much.

The Hammer needs more space front and aft compared to the cabinet saw. The 79" slider needs 14 feet (167 5/8") for full side to side (RHS to LHS) travel.

Oh! The sliding table acts like a giant T-slot bar riding in the T-slot on a cabinet saw. You make a box joint cutting jig, attach it to the slider, set your dado blades and zero clearance insert and you have a massive iBox joint jig. Tenon cutting jig works similarly.

The saw is louder than a cabinet saw. The max size blade is ~12" or 300mm. With the scoring blade installed, you are limited to 250mm size blade.

I did not purchase Felder mobility kit. It allows essentially one axis travel, too awkward for my space. I also don't move my saw. There is debate about saw settings relative to moving it repeatedly.

[mreza Salav]

I agree with Patrick. Note that the ICS is the top end cabinet saw and the hammer is an entry level slider. I have a ICS and am quite happy with it (no complain).
Do I like a slider, definitely, but I'm sure if I get a small slider I'd want a bigger one (with at least 8' sliding capability). If you can find a Felder or SCM/minimax used at good condition you might get a lot more saw for the price you are paying.

[Rich Riddle]

Having used both in woodworking shops in the military bases, I chose the K3 Winner and have no regrets. I find a slider far more useful and gave up cutting full sheets on the table saw some time back. I have a track saw for complete sheets of plywood.

[James Zhu]

Definitely go for slider, so much better than traditional cabinet saw, this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ ) from Felder shows all the nice features a slider offers.

Someone posted the following ad (MiniMax CU300 combination machine and MM16 bandsaw) in MiniMax USA forum 3 days ago.

http://columbus.craigslist.org/tls/5381171671.html

[David Kumm]

I'm a slider guy but would also caution that if you need to move it around you want as stout a build as you can find for the price. Machines are made with a light chassis than in the past and the longer the slider the apt it is to move when pulled around a concrete floor. I have sliders of all lengths and my favorites are either 10' or 4' Dave

[James Baker SD]

I used a PM-66 for 15 years in a home garage woodshop. It was a very good saw. I switched to a slider about 3 years and would never go back to the American style cabinet saw. In reference to an earlier comment, my slider is not mobile. It sits in one place and holds its alignment (a pain initially) very well.

[Frank Martin]

I sold my American made Unisaw and was planning to get an ICS. Then happened to find a Minimax CU 300 combo for about the same price. All I would say, I am very glad I went with the slider. If a slider with the SawStop technology were available, that would be the ultimate choice...

[Mike Henderson]

I have a SawStop but if I could have afforded a slider I would have gone that way. Like Patrick, I got my SawStop at a discount. But sliders tend to be a bit larger footprint and I also didn't have room - even if I could have afforded it.

Maybe one day I'll run into a deal I can't pass up.

Mike

[Kent Adams]

I know a lot of folks like SS. When I was buying, I looked at a used SS and a new PM2000. I didn't like the ICS. However, if I had to do it over again, I'd get a slider, either a MM, Hammer or Felder. The advantages of a slider are just too great.

[Rod Sheridan]

Dan, I have a Hammer B3 Winner with the 49 inch sliding table and comfort package. The nice thing bout Felder/Hammer is that you get to order exactly what you want.

I wanted the mid size slider with outrigger, scoring and dado capability, tilting spindle shaper and power feeder.

I would really recommend the saw/shaper over just the saw. Once you try out a tilting spindle shaper with a sliding table you'll know why.

You couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.............Regards, Rod.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I have the saws sawstop PCS, which I know is not what you're looking at. But I've done a lot of thinking on this subject and thought I would share what I've learned.

I rrally like my sawstop, but now wish I had a euro style slider, as it can be safer than a cabinet saw if used properly (no hand feeding using the rip fence). It also has far more utility than a cabinet saw because of the sliding table.

As another poster mentioned, the second parallel rip is the cut where most would just use the fence and hand feed the workpiece. This is one of the more dangerous operations on a table saw. My opinion is that on the whole, a SS is still safer than a euro saw if you insist on hand feeding your rip cuts.

The euro saw fences are usually designed to allow you to reposition the fence by sliding it toward the operator, thus eliminating the pinch zone at the back of the blade. This dramatically reduces the chance of kick back, so hand fed rip cuts are still safer on a euro machine than a non-sawstop cabinet saw... but the sawstop safety mechanism changes that equation in favor of the sawstop, imho.

So if safety is the primary objective, the key to a euro style saw is to not hand feed.

You can use the sliding table for the parallel rip cut with some fiddling, if you have enough slider stroke. So if i were you, i'd spring for an 8' stroke. Or you can get Hammer's power feeder with the fold down hinge accessory.

Safety aside, a sliding table saw can do far more than a cabinet saw... and the sliding table attachments for cabinet saws are nice (i have an excalibur), but they are nowhere near as nice as a true slider.

So, to sum up... my view is that a slider is a safer and more functional machine than a cabinet saw, as long as you don't hand feed your rip cuts, and as long as you get one with an 8' stroke.

Good luck.

[Patrick Walsh]

Gotta consider the the potential setup involved in a slider. If you cant or have not don't this type work before I would pay to have it setup by Felder. The. After it was setup you could not pay me to move it even a 1/2"...

On the flip side the SawStop is pretty much plug and play..

[Ray Newman]

At one time, I seriously considered a Hammer K3 as a replacement for my Uni-saw. I looked on the Hammer web site and noted the footprint and how much space is needed for the various sized sliders. After a while I started to run out room when I was trying to reconfigure the shop to accommodate a Hammer slider. Great saws, but they do need to room.

Advise you to carefully consider exactly how much space you have and -- if required -- how much space you are willing to give up. Might be an idea to make a scale drawing of the shop space available along with cardboard cut outs of the current machines and the Hammer you desire. Move things around and see if there is enough room. Might give you a better perspective as to what is needed?? As an aside, at one time I had the small Excaliber slider mounted on the Uni-saw. Took it off as it just consumed too much space.

Righty now I am still serious looking for a replacement to the Uni-saw. Seems as if for various and sundry reasons, the Saw Stop ICS will be my choice.

[Anthony Pearce]

Don't mean to hijack the thread I'm currently in the process of making the same decision. In all of felders promo videos they say the saw was set up and aligned before shipment. I know it can be bumpy but how far out of alignment will it while being shipped?

[Joe Jensen]

I went from a Sawstop ICS to a Felder slider. I can't believe how amazing it is to cut perfect 90 degree cuts on sheet goods. When I had the Sawstop I tried a Festool track saw but it was a bitch getting perfect 90 cuts. I just put new trim around all the doors in the house and with a couple of the bedrooms I had to taper cut some of the trim to fit against a side wall. Simple task to clamp the stock to the slider and trim it. The only downside to the slider for me is space. I have a 10 ft slide and it's constantly in the way. Before the slider I had all machines stationary in the shop. When I added the slider I had to make a couple of machines mobile and that's a pain. Also, the Sawstop ICS was dialed in PERFECTLY right off the crate. I mean PERFECT. The Felder was perfect except it ships with the slider separate and you have to align it side to side. Felder ships it set to about .010"-.015" above the cast iron top. I spent time getting mine to .005"-.008". In hind sight that was a waste of time and unnecessary.

[Dan Schmidt]

Thanks for the replies all. Ray, I too have been struggling with the idea of giving up more shop space. Attached is view of my 31' x 23' shop showing my current contractor saw and a 207" x 132" footprint of what a slider might require. Clearly, even with my current saw, I wield large 4x8 sheets in and out of it so I need to leave room in front, back, and left of saw. I have a 32" rip fence now, so I need to go wider on the right anyway. Currently my jointer sits to the right of my saw, so I'd definitely need to find a new home for it. What do you think, am I crazy to give up this space?
328471

[Sean Tracey]

How does a slider take up more room ripping a 4x8 sheet of plywood than a table saw doing the same thing?

[Dan Schmidt]

I wondered the same thing. From what I can tell, the unit I'm looking at would be able to slide the sheet 6" past the blade. Other than that, you have sliding unit and outrigger that stay in place permanently. Imagine a 4x8 sheet lengthwise, and another one widthwise permanently attached to your saw.

[Joe Jensen]

How does a slider take up more room ripping a 4x8 sheet of plywood than a table saw doing the same thing?

The slider does not take more room when ripping a 4 by 8 sheet. But when you are not ripping a 4 by 8 sheet a cabinet saw has a much smaller footprint and there is no slider just sitting there in the way. If you want to simulate what it's like to have a slider in the shop, clamp a 2 by 12 the length of the slider to the left edge of your cabinet saw and then put another 4 foot (or 5 foot) board perpendicular to simulate the outrigger. Yes you can take the outrigger on and off but that takes time too. Don't get me wrong, I will never go back but the slider is in the way in a 3 car garage shop.

[Rod Sheridan]

How does a slider take up more room ripping a 4x8 sheet of plywood than a table saw doing the same thing?

It doesn't.

My 4 foot slider takes up the same space as my cabinet saw did.

The outrigger clips on in a minute without tools, supports a sheet of plywood for crosscutting, or crosscut a dining room table top, then take the outrigger off and put it back on the wall.

Go for the slider...........Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

I wondered the same thing. From what I can tell, the unit I'm looking at would be able to slide the sheet 6" past the blade. Other than that, you have sliding unit and outrigger that stay in place permanently. Imagine a 4x8 sheet lengthwise, and another one widthwise permanently attached to your saw.

Dan, most of the time the outrigger is on the wall in my shop. I only put it on when I need it......Rod.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Dan,

Sliders do not "occupy" much more space, but it requires "clearance".
Mine is 78 inches, which protrudes only about 1 foot fore and aft of the saw. It was more compact than I thought.

For the slider saws, I think fore and aft are not that much of an issue because you need the clearance anyway regardless of the type of the saws.

What would be more occupying is actually the outrigger, specifically the long crosscut fence that come with it.
Yes, you can easily attach and detach it, but I'm sure that you will find the outrigger so useful (and love it), you keep it always attached.

Looking at your drawing, I don't see a problem. Mine space is smaller.

[Jim Becker]

'Late to the party, but I have ZERO regrets in moving to a sliding table saw a number of years ago. Yes, there's a bit of a learning curve since you do some things differently, but it's been a pleasure to have in my shop. I never edge joint at my J/P because of the slider, too. Once a board is flat and at proper thickness, you can get a perfectly straight and glue ready edge merely by clamping the board to the wagon and making the cut. Rarely are my hands/fingers near the blade, too.

As an aside, the 70" sliding table on the saw you are considering is a bit short if you want to use the wagon for ripping or with full size sheet goods. Mine is 8'6" and I wouldn't want it any smaller. That said, the longer the sliding table capacity, the larger the space you need to fit it in your shop and use it. Mine requires 19' for the full throw of the slider as an example.

[Ray Newman]

Dan Schmidt: Susumu Mori said it best about outrigger space/clearance and taking the slider/outrigger on and off. A few times I removed/replaced the Excaliber, and that was royal PITA as it was a cumbersome, time consuming task. Have no idea how easy or quickly it would be with the various Hammers. But the Little Voice in my head would probably say "Leave it on."

Based upon your shop layout drawing, also agree with his opinion of not seeing a problem as to space/clearance. Looks like you have enough clearance to stand behind the work and easily move the slider/outrigger forward. Only you can decide if it will be workable for you when cutting a 4x8' sheet. Our shops are 'bout the same size -- mine is 24x 30'. I loose space for wheelchair clearance and my reloading bench and reloading-related storage cabinets.

As for cutting down sheet goods, I now utilize a Fe$tool track saw and no complaints about the quality or accuracy of the cut with it.

[Brian Hood]

With respect to rips and working near the blade in general, I use the 8" rule. No part of me gets closer than that, ever. Sliders have a great feature in the t-slots when you make sliding clamps for them, sometimes I work so small I'll make a disposable clamp by positioning a block of wood the same thickness as the work set a few inches away, then use another length of scrap to bridge from the block to the work and set the clamp on the bridge to press down on the work and the block. Then you can cut right through that hold-down block as it hold the work in place.

Another idea would be to get a parallel fence, like this one:
http://www.lambtoolworks.com/products.html
(I have his square and it's one of my favorite tools as it will square the miter fence to the saw in a few seconds to about .002 in 24").

I have the Hammer combo machine because my 12' x 24' shop is too small for more than one woodworking machine. Now I have a nice roomy shop with a hammer slider, a 12" joiner, and a 12" thickness planer. Also a 3hp router that pops out of the table when needed. The critical hand wheels have indicators in .001".

A warning about used Hammers. 20 years ago Hammer/Felder was still working out the bugs with the miter fence, rip fence, and documentation. I threw out both fences and have a Delta Unifence and an Excaliber miter gauge. The newer ones are fine and it may be worth the 50% discount, it was for me, but just be aware of what you are getting into.
Like they say, I'll never go back to a no-slider saw. It would just be so frustrating.

[James Zhu]

A slider introduces ripping issues that simply don't exist with a flat tablesaw. As Jim mentions, there are special ripping scenarios where a slider is a better machine, but in my experience ... the one he illustrates is about the only one.

I just do not see any ripping issue slider introduces that does not exist on traditional table saw.

On slider, you could do ripping on sliding table like Jim said. For small piece, you could use such Fritz and Franz jig (http://www.martin-usa.com/products/frame-saw-system-for-sliding-table-saw-comfort/, you can DIY) on sliding table. And Aigner rip fence vectral http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Fence-accessories/AIGNER-rip-fence-Vectral.html makes ripping on right side of the blade so much safer and quicker.

Euro slider is simply better than any traditional cabinet saw.

[Rich Riddle]

Two issues (probably more) ... First, to my knowledge there is no such thing as a zero clearance insert between the slide table and blade on a slider. Making one for a tables saw is trivial. Second ... the sliding table is ~ 3 thousandths higher than the saw top (as recommended by most manufacturers). That cocks any stock wide enough to extend far enough beyond the blade (and especially narrow stock) to ride on the slider when ripping. The table saw is perfectly flat and square.

I have asked and none of my friends that have sliders have that as the "go to tool" for ripping (if another option exists), and especially not ripping narrow strips. I was at a friends shop using his edgebander last week and commented about the "sawtooth" on his Robland's slide table ... the answer? "Cutting thin strips, it is amazing how much that 350mm blade flexes when bound and jammed by a strip!"

Perhaps or apparently your experience is different.

Bill,

I agree with what you said about ripping very long boards on a slider with a short stroke. I do have a backup table saw for that but rarely rip any long boards. That might just be me. For sheet goods, I went to the track saw long ago. I'm far more accurate with that than a full sheet on a traditional table saw.

I disagree on cutting narrow strips and think this is where the slider excels. Cutting short narrow strips does present a problem since there are no zero clearance devises but typically I am not cutting both narrow and short strips. For narrow strips, I simply cut the narrow side to the right side of the blade, not the left. The Hammer system allows you to slide back the fence system behind the blade.

[James Zhu]

Two issues (probably more) ... First, to my knowledge there is no such thing as a zero clearance insert between the slide table and blade on a slider. Making one for a tables saw is trivial. Second ... the sliding table is ~ 3 thousandths higher than the saw top (as recommended by most manufacturers). That cocks any stock wide enough to extend far enough beyond the blade (and especially narrow stock) to ride on the slider when ripping. The table saw is perfectly flat and square.

I have asked and none of my friends that have sliders have that as the "go to tool" for ripping (if another option exists), and especially not ripping narrow strips. I was at a friends shop using his edgebander last week and commented about the "sawtooth" on his Robland's slide table ... the answer? "Cutting thin strips, it is amazing how much that 350mm blade flexes when bound and jammed by a strip!"

Perhaps or apparently your experience is different.

You can DIY zero clearance insert for slider, maybe not so trivial compared to making one for flat table saw, but it is doable, the guy in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X_vd-T3hqk made ZCI for his hammer K3.

Yes, sliding table is 2~3 thou higher than cast iron top, so stock could be moved easily when cutting, 2~3 thou is not a problem for woodworking at all. In some pro shop, they have dedicated machine doing ripping, certainly better and faster than ripping on slider. Btw, Robland's slider is not a high quality machine, I would say Hammer/Felder and MiniMax sliders are better than Robland's.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Thanks for the replies all. Ray, I too have been struggling with the idea of giving up more shop space. Attached is view of my 31' x 23' shop showing my current contractor saw and a 207" x 132" footprint of what a slider might require. Clearly, even with my current saw, I wield large 4x8 sheets in and out of it so I need to leave room in front, back, and left of saw. I have a 32" rip fence now, so I need to go wider on the right anyway. Currently my jointer sits to the right of my saw, so I'd definitely need to find a new home for it. What do you think, am I crazy to give up this space?


Dan, looking at your drawing of your shop, you shouldn't have any trouble with the Hammer K3 79" slider. I have mine in half of a 2-car garage that is 20' deep. The sliding table travels fully with the garage door closed AND having a work bench situated against the wall, behind the sliding table . With your shop's size, I recommend considering the 110" (2800 mm) sliding table, which brings you into the Felder/Kappa lines.



What would be more occupying is actually the outrigger, specifically the long crosscut fence that come with it.
Yes, you can easily attach and detach it, but I'm sure that you will find the outrigger so useful (and love it), you keep it always attached.


Ditto! My out rigger serves many functions. It sometimes acts as a small desk and an assembly table. When I need the space for the car, it is stored away under the out-feed/assembly table. The out rigger support arm folded flat against the saw chassis. Not very difficult or time consuming to remove and install.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Bill, I made a bunch (like 25) of insert stock out of scrap white oak, ripped and planed to the same dimensions as the OEM insert. Holes drilled and counter sunk. The time that I find the ZCI useful is when I have small cut offs and for dadoes. With the OEM insert, the small cut offs get thrown into the opening in the OEM insert reserved for the scoring blade. In this instance, the small cut offs are hazardous. With the ZCI installed, the cut off pieces just slide off the table.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Bill,

I often use the rip fence of my slider saw just like a regular cabinet saw. That is the way I like to do second rip.
I guess we can always use slider saws just like a cabinet saw. Am I missing something?

Before I purchased the slider saw, I read some threads here warning how awkward to do ripping using the rip fence of slider saws, like I need to lean over the slider table, the switch is in the wrong side etc., but at least for my slider saw, the switch is in the right side of the blade and I always hide behind (right side) of the rip fence during ripping. So, I never feel lacking....

I understand that Euro saws used to have very meager rip fences but the cast iron rip fence came with Hammer is quite beefy.

As for ZCI, as Wakashita pointed out, Hammer comes with a blank insert for ZCI. I made it by myself (because it is so expensive), although it requires some routing in the underside. This is something I definitely I envy cabinet saws.

James, that Aigner ripping device is super cool but the price is also super,,,, we can buy a decent table saw just for ripping with that price!

[Denis Kenzior]

Bill,

You can add an auxiliary surface on the cast iron table for the times you actually need to do this, if this really bugs you. Search the archives over on Felder Yahoo Groups page.

Or rip on the thin stuff on the bandsaw and send the stock through the planer / drum sander. Beats trying to rip thin stock.

I have a short-stroke Knapp slider like yours and wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Susumu Mori]

Oh, I see your point. I'll keep my eye on it to see how it would affect my work,,, maybe significant depending on what I make.

[mreza Salav]

I have often heard that sliders can do everything a cabinet saw can do and do it better and then there are others who have both types of saws for some reasons and issues like what Bill describes that I find very interesting. Not that I am on the market to buy a slider but I have wondered for some long time whether it is worth swapping my ICS sawstop for a slider at some point. From a lengthy discussion on this topic in another thread by many experienced users it appeared that it is NOT true that a slider is superior to a cabinet saw in every aspect, particularly for ripping.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have often heard that sliders can do everything a cabinet saw can do and do it better and then there are others who have both types of saws for some reasons and issues like what Bill describes that I find very interesting. Not that I am on the market to buy a slider but I have wondered for some long time whether it is worth swapping my ICS sawstop for a slider at some point. From a lengthy discussion on this topic in another thread by many experienced users it appeared that it is NOT true that a slider is superior to a cabinet saw in every aspect, particularly for ripping.Having used both, I wouldn't go back to a cabinet saw for ripping, regardless of the width of the strip..............Regards, Rod.

[Susumu Mori]

Yes, Mreza, I heard many positive and negative comments and comparisons before I bought a slider saw.
My opinion is nowhere close to the professionals' with multiple table saws at hand, but here is what I thought.

The uniqueness of the slider saws is that everything can be done at the left side of the blade. The rip fence may be used but just as a stop block or a parallel guidance to set up the material on the slider. ZCI at the right side of the blade is not too difficult to make. Our hands are far from the blades and sliders are accurate. All good. We can do almost everything in this way.

However, the second rip is the sore spot. I personally found that cutting at the right side of the blade with a rip fence can be done by the time I set up some sort of a parallel guide on the slider. So why not just do the conventional cabinet saw way. There are, however, some issues, some are specific to the slider saws and some are general problems. Starting from the slider-specific issues;

1) ZCI at the left of the blade could be flimsy or not possible because there is not much space between the blade and the slider. This is potentially hazardous for thin and short cut off.
2) Bill pointed out that the slider wagon is a bit higher than the cast iron table and thus the rip is not perfectly perpendicular. I personally haven't found a problem with it but maybe I've been sloppy.
3) I used to heard that the rip fence of Euro saws are not good. I believe this had been significantly improved in recent years. Yes, they still don't have the cramping mechanism at the both end and it is still not as sturdy as good cabinet saws, but Euros have some advantages like "sliderable" and "90-degree rotatable" rip fence, which I found quite useful at times. However, if somebody tell me that they like the good rip fence of cabinet saws much better, I do understand it.
4) Also I heard ripping with a rip fence in Euro saws forces you an awkward position leaning over the slider. I haven't found any issue because I always stand the right side of the fence, but it could be just me. Again, I do understand that slider table gets in their way for simple second rip, I do understand it too. As a matter of fact, I always wonder why I have to lean over the slider table every time I turn on the saw....

For the issues not specific to the slider saws is;

Once the widths of boards get approach to the size of my palm (like 6 inches), second ripping with a rip fence becomes difficult, but this is an issue of all table saws. For 3-6 inches of width, there is actually an interesting claim that slider saws have a good solution; somehow cramp them to the slider and rip it. Of course, we need to have extra steps to ensure the parallelism of the second rip but this is worth it for the enhanced safety. I personally buy this claim and do it often, but as the width get 2 inches and narrower, there would not be enough cramping space and the advantage is lost. So, this approach has a narrow range of operation.

Overall, I feel opinions from both camps have truth in it and I wish I can have two saws in my shop, but if I can have only one, I would go with a slider.

[Denis Kenzior]

I'm with Rod on this one. If I could only have one saw, it would be a slider. It forces you to change your ways of work a bit, but the overall the advantages are too great to ignore. The disadvantages Bill pointed out, while true, are not really an issue in practice. My slider is set at about .003-.004 above the cast iron table. That is within error-tolerance of most cast iron top saws.

If someone is really worried about that, then simply rip the piece slightly oversize (1/16-1/8") or so and then rip again. Your angle will be spot on in that case. Or do it on the bandsaw and send it through the planer. Safer, better finish and easier to sneak up on the right dimension.

[David Kumm]

You really need to access the type of work you do when deciding on one saw. I have the space and find that efficiency dictates more than one for me. If I had the room for a 10' slider, it would be my first choice but must be heavily built. Any saw that can't stand rolling around or has a fiddly crosscut fence is no fun. If I need to remove the crosscut fence to use the saw, I lose interest too. Clamps almost become a necessity with a slider and should be accounted for in price as well. You learn to use what you have but my short stroke old sliders get by far the most work until the plywood comes out. I keep about four Grrippers set so one will always work and find that as much as I agree about ripping on a slider, I end up doing the second rip on the Whitney rather than attach the parallel fence, adjust the clamps, or remove the fence on the slider. Dave

[Sean Tracey]

Thanks. That's the most useful analogy I've heard.

[David Ashley]

I Saw "as in seen" the SawStop Sliding Crosscut Table today at a store and went WOW this looks cool, then I come here and now I am blown AWAY... Being just a hobby my funds are limited as is the space in which I can store and use a saw. Has anyone here used this crosscut table? is it worth the 999 they want? or it just kind of a wantabe of a true Slider saw.
Ugh the more I look the more Q come to mind.

[John Lankers]

David, what you looked at is a sliding table attachment which is several inches away from the saw blade and won't give you the advantage of a true slider but would be a big improvement over a simple miter gauge setup. The question should be whether the sliding table attachment is superior to a shop built table saw sled, and that is a question I can not answer.
Having said all this, I do know you won't need a crosscut sled ever on a sliding table saw but you likely will on a table saw with the sliding table attachment. Also, when you're already thinking in SawStop money it might not be a bad idea to take a serious look at a true slider. I believe Hammer and Grizzly offer machines that can compete with SawStop.
On a slider your hands don't have to be in harms way ever (unless you're absolute careless) and you will not be in the kickback path either. Don't forget, you can safely rip rough lumber on a slider which you can't do on a table saw with the sliding table attachment - unless your ripping extremely wide boards.

[Keith Weber]

Dan, I think you have your answer. Reading the last 3 pages of responses, I would say that the general opinion is at least 10 to 1 in favor of a slider over a SS. Lots of people have switched from the SS to a slider, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who has gladly gone the other way. There's no way I would spend over $6K on a cabinet saw when buying a slider was an option.

[Dan Schmidt]

Keith & All, yes - all of your comments have been EXTREMELY helpful as usual - thank you. After much research I ordered a Felder K700S slider. I had to push my budget a bit more, and I'm still mourning the loss of floor space / new shop layout, but I feel confident I'm going to love this thing. It will be ~14 weeks before I receive, but I'll circle back with all of you when I get it and give you my first impressions. Thanks again!

Dan

[Jim Andrew]

Congratulations!

[Glenn Kramer]

As a previous owner of the ICS Sawstop and now having replaced it with a Hammer B3 with 78" sliding table I am still not certain I made the right move. I cannot say I am impressed with the Hammer. As was pointed out above, the Hammer B3 is not premium grade machine. It is design to suit a particular market. It's by no means a Felder. I am not impressed with the fit and finish of the hammer. Rip fence is marginal and I do not think long enough. At the cost of this machine I could of had two Sawstops and much more for tooling. One mounted with a dado, the other with a combination blade. I think this would have been more efficient for my operation. I do not like the difference in height between table height versus slider either. The safety advantage of the SawStop also is a big plus.
Sawstop instructions are far better as the B3 Manual is seriously lacking. Now that I use my MFT cross cutting plywood, etc. the sliding table has only a marginal advantage. I guess I just loved my SawStop. Accurate, pleasure to use, quiet and reliable and above all a safer machine.