In Trouble - Tear Out Disaster

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Guys... If you are still out there and haven't started tipping em back yet, I could really use some help...

I just started planning a nice piece of maple that I have all prepped to be one of the sides of a cabinet I am building. I forgot to close down the mouth on my LV 621/2 and I just took out a huge chunk of the board. I mean an area about 2" square that is probably an 1/16 of an inch deep. Its a mess.

Remaking the board is out of the question. I need to somehow address the tear out. Do I scrape it down and feather it out? I have done that in the past with lesser messes, but this is dramatic. I am afraid I will leave a divot or hollow in the board that will be way too noticeable. Naturally this is dead center of a large board. Is there any way to fill it that will take BLO or some other fairly clear finish? Anyone have any similar story and advice they can lend? I really appreciate anyone who may be able to help me get past this mess. Thanks in advance!

Joe

[glenn bradley]

Reduce thickness till eliminated, add shims from the back when installing to simulate thickness? Knowing the location of the piece and the way it will be used will help.

[Jim Belair]

Can you reverse the board and put the offending area on the inside? That way your correction might not be noticeable. I'd reduce the thickness of both sides by 1/16th I think.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Pictures might help. My number one strategy for tear out is avoiding it, followed by using a scraper. If it is as bad as you say, perhaps try switching the board, so the bad spot is on the inside, or somewhere where it won't be noticed.

[Patrick Chase]

Hey Guys... If you are still out there and haven't started tipping em back yet, I could really use some help...

I just started planning a nice piece of maple that I have all prepped to be one of the sides of a cabinet I am building. I forgot to close down the mouth on my LV 621/2 and I just took out a huge chunk of the board. I mean an area about 2" square that is probably an 1/16 of an inch deep. Its a mess.

Remaking the board is out of the question. I need to somehow address the tear out. Do I scrape it down and feather it out? I have done that in the past with lesser messes, but this is dramatic. I am afraid I will leave a divot or hollow in the board that will be way too noticeable. Naturally this is dead center of a large board. Is there any way to fill it that will take BLO or some other fairly clear finish? Anyone have any similar story and advice they can lend? I really appreciate anyone who may be able to help me get past this mess. Thanks in advance!

Joe

I almost hesitate to suggest this, but if the options others have suggested aren't workable then you could thin down the entire panel and veneer it. If you go this route you would thin down by the thickness of the veneer, and fill in any remaining tearout in the manner of your choosing before veneering it.

If you can move the impacted area to the inside face then you might be able to get away with an inlay patch.

[Joe Beaulieu]

I will get a couple of pics. I can't reverse the board- already cut the shelf dadoes on the other side. This is a tool cabinet, so it doesn't need to be perfect, but I also don't want to look at a hunk of tear out every time I come in my shop. It will drive me nuts. I will try and scrape as well - see how bad it looks. My guess is I will scrape out most of it and live with the rest. Is wood putty out of the question? Is it that obvious?

JB

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Personal preference, but I would rather look at a little shallow area that has been scraped up than a bunch of wood putty. If it doesn't bother me enough to go get a new board, I prefer to look at things like that as a reminder to not get in a rush on my next project.

[Patrick Chase]

I will get a couple of pics. I can't reverse the board- already cut the shelf dadoes on the other side. This is a tool cabinet, so it doesn't need to be perfect, but I also don't want to look at a hunk of tear out every time I come in my shop. It will drive me nuts. I will try and scrape as well - see how bad it looks. My guess is I will scrape out most of it and live with the rest. Is wood putty out of the question? Is it that obvious?

JB

I would veneer before I'd resort to putty on an externally facing surface, but that's just me. It also depends on how your joinery works, and specifically whether there's exposed end or edge grain that would give away the veneer.

[Jim Belair]

I'd only use putty if I was going to paint a piece. Paint in conjunction with clear finished wood can look quite striking.

[Patrick Chase]

Hey Guys... If you are still out there and haven't started tipping em back yet, I could really use some help...

I just started planning a nice piece of maple that I have all prepped to be one of the sides of a cabinet I am building. I forgot to close down the mouth on my LV 621/2 and I just took out a huge chunk of the board. I mean an area about 2" square that is probably an 1/16 of an inch deep. Its a mess.

Remaking the board is out of the question. I need to somehow address the tear out. Do I scrape it down and feather it out? I have done that in the past with lesser messes, but this is dramatic. I am afraid I will leave a divot or hollow in the board that will be way too noticeable. Naturally this is dead center of a large board. Is there any way to fill it that will take BLO or some other fairly clear finish? Anyone have any similar story and advice they can lend? I really appreciate anyone who may be able to help me get past this mess. Thanks in advance!

Joe

On a related note, every time I use my low-angle Jack (same plane as you) with a 25-deg blade it feels like I'm playing a round of "tearout Russian roulette". It leaves a beautiful surface when the grain cooperates, but it can also do an incredible amount of damage even with the mouth closed all the way down. The thought of what happens when that 37-deg wedge starts levering grain out with the mouth open makes me shudder.

'Uh huh, I know what you're thinking. Does the grain reverse at that slightly shiny looking spot or only flatten out? Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being this is a low-angle Jack, the most destructive handplane in the world and would rip your cabinet's face clean off, you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?' - D. Harry

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[glenn bradley]

I will get a couple of pics. I can't reverse the board- already cut the shelf dadoes on the other side. This is a tool cabinet

Ouch! OK, I've got it. Make a nice tool holder out of a complimentary wood species and hang your router plane over it.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Ouch! OK, I've got it. Make a nice tool holder out of a complimentary wood species and hang your router plane over it.

I like the way you think.

[Jim Belair]

Ouch! OK, I've got it. Make a nice tool holder out of a complimentary wood species and hang your router plane over it.

Right! It's not "trouble" it's a design opportunity. :rolleyes:

[Pat Barry]

I would eat it and remake it

[Stanley Covington]

Paraphrasing something I read long ago, but which works well in the real world: "The clever craftsman decorates his mistakes."

[Zuye Zheng]

I would use clear epoxy before putty. 1/16 doesn't seem too much to plane/scrape out though?

[Reinis Kanders]

You could inlay something simple and decorative say triangle or rhombus. Fun little chiseling exercise.

[Stewie Simpson]

My preference; thin CA to stabilise the outer fibres of the void; followed by a clear or black tinted 2 part epoxy as your primary filler.

[Joe Beaulieu]

I spent a good amount of time scraping it this afternoon/evening. It is much less of an issue, but still there. On a positive note, I had never used a #80 Stanley before. I had one that I bought as an older tool. Wow! That was the tool that helped the most by a long shot. What a difference. I have the LN large scraper and the LN cabinet scraper, neither of which seemed to make much hay with this maple. Then while getting out some card scrapers I saw the #80. So I sharpened it up, checked the sole, which was fine, and tried it out. What a great tool! I am a convert. I really enjoyed scraping for the first time. I may not get it all out, but it will have to do. I think a matte finish will hide the sins and be OK for a shop cabinet.

Last observation. I was under the impression that the 62 1/2 was the best tool for tight grain. However reading here is sounds like that is maybe not the case? Should I have gone for a smoother with a higher angle frog? I have a 50 degree frog for my 4 1/2. I was under the impression that the 60 1/2 was a great utility plane, and was perfect for tight grain situations. I did leave a good sized mouth on it though, so maybe I am judging too quickly. I am gun shy now though.

Thank you all for your great suggestions. I guess veneering would have been my best bet, although I have never done that. I am a veneering virgin...

Joe

[Stewie Simpson]

There are a number of good options available to deal with tear-out.

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/toothing-plane-bespoke-or-antique-a-comparative-review-t85414.html

[Kees Heiden]

Apart from the toothing plane Stewie just posted, there are a few methods to reduce tearout. First start with a sharp blade and when neccessary a really thin cut. Look for the best grain direction too.

Then there are three basic methods, capiron set very close to the edge, a high cutting angle and a tight mouth. Not neccesarily all combined together!

You allready know about the tight mouth, but it is the least effective of the three.

Your low angle plane has a low bed of 12 degrees. When you sharpen the blade with a 40 degree bevel you get a 52 degree cutting angle. that is one method.

Your 4 1/2 has a chip breaker. Set it super close to the edge, like 0.2 to 0.3 mm close. Make sure the front edge is well prepared. That becomes a nice anti tearout plane, while you are still cutting at only 45 degrees. A basic explanation in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSjpzta0FuY

[Stewie Simpson]

Kees; I see your not built for doing manual work. :p

Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

Indeed! Well, my other hobby is mountain climbing. It's helpfull not to carry around too much weight.

[lowell holmes]

Uhh, just curious.

Kees, why did you show a chipbreaker? This is a bevel up plane. I have all three irons for mine. I would use my 50 degree iron.

I also have the LV bevel up smoother and the irons are interchangeable.

[Chris Hachet]

Uhh, just curious.

Kees, why did you show a chipbreaker? This is a bevel up plane. I have all three irons for mine. I would use my 50 degree iron.

I also have the LV bevel up smoother and the irons are interchangeable.

IIRC the OP has a 4 1/2 as well. I use bevel down planes and sharp blades and have very little trouble with tear out on maple. The chip breaker adjustment is critical.

Regards,

Chris

[Patrick Chase]

Last observation. I was under the impression that the 62 1/2 was the best tool for tight grain. However reading here is sounds like that is maybe not the case? Should I have gone for a smoother with a higher angle frog? I have a 50 degree frog for my 4 1/2. I was under the impression that the 60 1/2 was a great utility plane, and was perfect for tight grain situations. I did leave a good sized mouth on it though, so maybe I am judging too quickly. I am gun shy now though.

Thank you all for your great suggestions. I guess veneering would have been my best bet, although I have never done that. I am a veneering virgin...

Joe

I think you're referring to my Dirty Harry riff there....

Tearout is a very odd thing, and doesn't always behave in predictable and consistent ways. Sometimes things that you think should be awful for tearout turn out to work beautifully and vice-versa. With that said, low cutting angle is usually a Bad Thing (tm) for tearout, so a 12-deg bevel-up plane with a 25-deg blade for a 37-deg cutting angle (the as-shipped configuration of all of the 62-class planes including the LAJ) is begging for trouble, even with the mouth closed down. With that said, low cutting angles also leave ultra-smooth surfaces in their wake - high risk, high reward.

If you haven't already you'll probably want to invest in a second blade honed at a higher angle. Veritas sells 38-deg (50 deg cutting angle) and 50-deg (62-deg cutting angle) blades for it, but you can also just take a 25-deg blade and put a high secondary bevel on it. High cutting angles degrade surface finish, so I would suggest starting with something like the 38-deg blade. You can also use a toothed blade, but IMO that's more useful for bulk material removal than for final smoothing. When smoothing the final pass must always be continuous (no teeth and no voids from a previous toothing pass) so if you can't make such a cut without tearout then you're fundamentally hosed.

In terms of whether the LAJ makes a good smoother ("best" is in the eye of the beholder, and I'll simply say that it isn't my first choice) there are a few tradeoffs to be aware of:

- On the positive side it's very easy to change cutting angle in a bevel-up plane by swapping in blades with different bevels, so that's probably the single easiest and least skill-intensive way to mitigate tearout. You don't need an arsenal of planes with different frogs, you don't have to learn to back-bevel, and you don't have to learn how to tune and closely set a cap iron (and then deal with the inevitable jamming problems). With all of that said, increased cutting angle isn't my first choice because it hurts surface quality a bit (it's actually my last resort before scraping). If you like the surface you got from the #80 then this probably isn't a big concern for you, as even a York-pitch (62 deg) plane will leave a better finish than that.

- On the minus side, bevel-up planes like the LAJ don't have cap irons, so the first of the options Kees describes isn't available with that plane.

- Also on the minus side, a 15" plane can't really follow fluctuations in the surface, so in that sense it's a bit compromised as a smoother. Some people consider this a feature, though I'd argue they've got "smoothing" confused with "jointing" :-).

Taking all of this together, I'd urge you to spend some time learning to take full advantage of your 4-1/2, preferably starting with its default (45-deg) frog. You'll be amazed at how well that plane can do with a close-set chipbreaker as Kees describes (and as discussed in countless threads). I plane a fair amount of Maple and seldom have to resort to high angles.

The "veneer solution" is definitely high effort, and purists don't like it. I threw it out mostly because others hadn't and because it's the one option that gets you to a flat, cosmetically good face at the intended thickness (all of the others compromise one or more of those attributes). You'll find that veneering is a good tool to have in your bag of tricks - there are lots of cases like this where it can save your bacon.

[Patrick Chase]

Uhh, just curious.

Kees, why did you show a chipbreaker? This is a bevel up plane. I have all three irons for mine. I would use my 50 degree iron.

I also have the LV bevel up smoother and the irons are interchangeable.

He showed it for 2 reasons:

- The OP said he has a 4-1/2 as well, so cap iron optimization is an option for him

- High cutting angles compromise surface finish. I also have bevel-up planes (including the LV LAJ) but view high-bevel blades on those as a second-to-last resort (the last resort is scraping).

[Chris Hachet]

I think you're referring to my Dirty Harry riff there....

Tearout is a very odd thing, and doesn't always behave in predictable and consistent ways. Sometimes things that you think should be awful for tearout turn out to work beautifully and vice-versa. With that said, low cutting angle is usually a Bad Thing (tm) for tearout, so a 12-deg bevel-up plane with a 25-deg blade for a 37-deg cutting angle (the as-shipped configuration of all of the 62-class planes including the LAJ) is begging for trouble, even with the mouth closed down. With that said, low cutting angles alsp leave ultra-smooth surfaces in their wake - high risk, high reward.

If you haven't already you'll probably want to invest in a second blade honed at a higher angle. Veritas sells 38-deg (50 deg cutting angle) and 50-deg (62-deg cutting angle) blades for it, but you can also just take a 25-deg blade and put a high secondary bevel on it. High cutting angles degrade surface finish, so I would suggest starting with something like the 38-deg blade. You can also use a toothed blade, but IMO that's more useful for bulk material removal than for final smoothing. When smoothing the final pass must always be continuous (no teeth and no voids from a previous toothing pass) so if you can't make such a cut without tearout then you're fundamentally hosed.

In terms of whether the LAJ makes a good smoother ("best" is in the eye of the beholder, and I'll simply say that it isn't my first choice) there are a few tradeoffs to be aware of:

- On the positive side it's very easy to change cutting angle in a bevel-up plane by swapping in blades with different bevels, so that's probably the single easiest and least skill-intensive way to mitigate tearout. You don't need an arsenal of planes with different frogs, you don't have to learn to back-bevel, and you don't have to learn how to tune and closely set a cap iron (and then deal with the inevitable jamming problems). With all of that said, increased cutting angle isn't my first choice because it hurts surface quality a bit (it's actually my last resort before scraping). If you like the surface you got from the #80 then this probably isn't a big concern for you, as even a York-pitch (62 deg) plane will leave a better finish than that.

- On the minus side, bevel-up planes like the LAJ don't have cap irons, so the first of the options Kees describes isn't available to you

- Also on the minus side, a 14" plane can't really follow fluctuations in the surface, so in that sense it's a bit compromised as a smoother. Some people consider this a feature, though I'd argue they've got "smoothing" confused with "jointing" :-).

Taking all of this together, I'd urge you to spend some time learning to take full advantage of your 4-1/2, preferably with its default (45-deg) frog. You'll be amazed at how well that plane can do with a close-set chipbreaker as Kees describes (and as discussed in countless threads).

The "veneer solution" is definitely high effort, and purists don't like it. I threw it out mostly because others hadn't and because it's the one option that gets you to a flat, cosmetically good face at the intended thickness (all of the others compromise one or more of those attributes). You'll find that veneering is a good tool to have in your bag of tricks - there are lots of cases like this where it can save your bacon.

IIRC the 4 1/2 was originally made by Stanley to compete with the fancy English infills at a lower price. It is probably the next plane that I am going to buy. However, right now I am building a bunch of kitchen cabinets so I did the blasphemous thing and bought a Festool sander and dust vac.

Surface quality of ultra smooth is great for a Jewelery box or a high end piece of furniture, but at some point smooth enough is smooth enough. I usually use card scrapers to fine tune for an ultra smooth finish.

[Patrick Chase]

IIRC the 4 1/2 was originally made by Stanley to compete with the fancy English infills at a lower price.

Yeah, that's Patrick Leach's theory. I don't buy it though as it doesn't explain the 5-1/2.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Patrick and Chris,

First let me say thank you for the exceptional help. Outstanding information. Patrick - I am grateful for the time you took to write that up. Responses like that are the reason I am a member here. People just take the time to help.

Patrick, just to resolve some confusion, I am not saying I am happy with the finish the 80 leaves. I was just surprised at how well it removed material and allowed me to recover from the tear out. i will need to find a way to smooth the finish in this area. "Small steps Sparks, small steps".

I agree that my #4 1/2 is very underutilized. I am just developing my planing skills and I have gaps. No arguement there. I do want to understand how to use these tools to prep in difficult situations. Unfortunately I don't want to do it on production pieces. I will try working with the alternate frog for the 4 1/2 and practice on some less critical stock . I will also grab an extra blade or two for the LV LAJ. I really appreciate the help. The cabinet will hang in my shop and every time I take a tool out I will remember this little debacle and its "opportunity for learning".

Thanks - very much appreciated.

Joe

[Chris Hachet]

Patrick and Chris,

First let me say thank you for the exceptional help. Outstanding information. Patrick - I am grateful for the time you took to write that up. Responses like that are the reason I am a member here. People just take the time to help.

Patrick, just to resolve some confusion, I am not saying I am happy with the finish the 80 leaves. I was just surprised at how well it removed material and allowed me to recover from the tear out. i will need to find a way to smooth the finish in this area. "Small steps Sparks, small steps".

I agree that my #4 1/2 is very underutilized. I am just developing my planing skills and I have gaps. No arguement there. I do want to understand how to use these tools to prep in difficult situations. Unfortunately I don't want to do it on production pieces. I will try working with the alternate frog for the 4 1/2 and practice on some less critical stock . I will also grab an extra blade or two for the LV LAJ. I really appreciate the help. The cabinet will hang in my shop and every time I take a tool out I will remember this little debacle and its "opportunity for learning".

Thanks - very much appreciated.

Joe


Good luck and keep us posted!

[Stewie Simpson]

You can also use a toothed blade, but IMO that's more useful for bulk material removal than for final smoothing.


Patrick. Have you ever used a traditional bd fine toothed, toothing plane. Your comment suggest you haven't.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

You can also use a toothed blade, but IMO that's more useful for bulk material removal than for final smoothing.


Patrick. Have you ever used a traditional bd fine toothed, toothing plane. Your comment suggest you haven't.

Stewie;

Quite possible. The toothed blades that I have are around 15 teeth/inch (too lazy to go count and get an exact #). Are you talking about something much finer?

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick. Bu or Bd.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick. Bu or Bd.

Bevel-up...

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Patrick. The Bu result in a more aggressive cutting action. Traditional Bd toothing irons with a bed angle of 87- 90* work on a scraping action. Having the toothing side facing down also makes the combs more susceptible to severe blinding, rather than self clear as you would experience with a Bd.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

It should be remembered that most woodworkers nowadays no longer thickness stock by hand. Something that is not always openly admitted. If you don't have a high tech thicknesser that's fitted with a spiral cutter head, there is a good likelihood your going to need more than 1 strategy to address existing tear out. I still rely on my old lunchbox thicknesser.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

It should be remembered that most woodworkers nowadays no longer thickness stock by hand. Something that is not always openly admitted. If you don't have a high tech thicknesser that's fitted with a spiral cutter head, there is a good likelihood your going to need more than 1 strategy to address existing tear out. I still rely on my old lunchbox thicknesser.

Stewie;

I sheepishly admit to having a large-ish lunchbox (DW735) that's been retrofitted with a Shelix head, though I don't have a jointer due to space constraints. I typically rough and joint one face by hand (at least to the point where it will sit properly on the planer's platen) and then thickness with the planer. I have access to large jointers, planers, and drum-sanders via an employer-provided shop, but I mostly do this for relaxation and meditative value to begin with so I draw the line there unless I'm in a hurry for some reason.

My responses earlier in this thread were smoothing-specific since that's what OP was trying to do. As you say, the answers would be very different if we introduced roughing or even jointing to the mix.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Patrick. The Bu result in a more aggressive cutting action. Traditional Bd toothing irons with a bed angle of 87- 90* work on a scraping action. Having the toothing side facing down also makes the combs more susceptible to severe blinding, rather than self clear as you would experience with a Bd.

Stewie;

Ah, I see. You're referring to something like this (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/library/coffin%20toother?sort=3&page=1) or this (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/library/toothed%20foreplane?sort=3&page=1). Nope, never tried anything like either of those.

Your photobucket is a wealth of information BTW :-).

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick. Same here. I don't bother with a power jointer.

Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

Yeah, that's Patrick Leach's theory. I don't buy it though as it doesn't explain the 5-1/2.

I was surprised to learn lately that the English favored wider smoothers. Most old woodies have a 2 1/4" iron, while 2" ones are quite rare. So maybe indeed it was an answer to demand from England, but not neccesarily to compete with the infills.

On the continent they seem to have favored narrower irons in their smoothers. In Germany and France 48 mm was the norm, that is even a bit less then 2". I can also find loads of old 2" woodies overhere in Holland. So keeping in line with my "heritage" I choose to buy a #3 last summer and I like it a lot so far.

[Stewie Simpson]

Ah, I see. You're referring to something like this (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/library/coffin%20toother?sort=3&page=1) or this (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/library/toothed%20foreplane?sort=3&page=1). Nope, never tried anything like either of those.

Your photobucket is a wealth of information BTW :-).



All of my albums have now been set to private viewing.

[Patrick Chase]

All of my albums have now been set to private viewing.

Sorry about that - I assumed they were public on purpose. I meant "wealth of information" in a positive/tool sense. I didn't see anything personal there, but I also only looked at things with clearly woodworking-related subjects.

Again, my apologies.

EDIT: Given my line of work (it involves search engines) I should probably be careful about describing stuff as a "a wealth of information". In the grand scheme it really wasn't - Somebody could probably figure out a lot more about you by mining your forum posts than they ever could from that photobucket, for example. It was however a wealth of very nice tools.

EDIT 2: You published the link to your photobucket with your images on the "Tiger Myrtle" thread - anybody who clicked on one of those images got redirected. I didn't and wouldn't post something like that if I'd found it by searching - that's poor forum etiquette.