New dovetail saw

[Charles Balviene]

Hi, I am looking to get a new dovetail saw in the new year (after all the Christmas bills are paid off), and I am looking at Bad Axe Stiletto, Rob Cosman, and Skelton saws. I would not expect many in the USA to have much/any experience of the Skelton saws as they are only sold in the UK.

If any of you have any experience, good and bad, of using any of these that would be great.

Thanks
Charlie

[Mike Henderson]

Look at the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw, also. Good saw. Some saws have progressive teeth, which means that TPI at the tip of the saw are higher than further back. The idea is to help you start the cut. I've not found that to be of value once you learn how to use a saw - and it's usually expensive.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

Look at the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw, also. Good saw. Some saws have progressive teeth, which means that TPI at the tip of the saw are higher than further back. The idea is to help you start the cut. I've not found that to be of value once you learn how to use a saw - and it's usually expensive.

Mike
I've had the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw for at least 15 years. It is an excellent tool. As far as I am concerned, it has no vices.

[Mike Brady]

I'll add a + on the LN saws. Any more spent is just buying "pretty". They all need sharpening, sooner or later.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Add Bob Summerfield to the list. I'm sure he would ship out to the UK. Prices were very good when I asked him about a Tenon saw, not really much more than Lie-Nielsen if I remember right. And they look fantastic.

http://www.rmsaws.com/p/blog-page_87.html (http://www.rmsaws.com/p/about-us.html)

[Dave Parkis]

I would suggest adding Ron Bontz to your list. His saws are great and the customer service is fantastic. Toes are sized to fit your hand, tpi is what you ask for. Just my $.02

[Simon MacGowen]

The poster asks for comments on the saws he has specifically listed, not LN or Veritas, etc. So I am not going to say anything about other saws except Rob Cosman's which I have used. Rob's saw is no doubt a very good dovetail saw as it tracks very well along a cutline and the weight is right for cutting plumb (like by itself). But it's pricey and in most cases, it is your skills rather than the saw that determine how well you can cut dovetails. I can cut perfect dovetails with Rob's or Veritas despite the difference in their prices and I have known many other dovetailers who do the same. By skills, I mean both sawing and chiseling skills.

I have also used the Bad Axe 10" dovetail saw, not the 12", and if they are the same other than the length, then the Stiletto is as good as Rob's. You should try the handles if possible as the feel and comfort are as important as the saw blade and teeth. I find some handles too small for my hand and while I can still cut good joints with them, I go with what feels better in my hand.

Simon

[Curt Putnam]

Since Simon is correct that you have only asked for opinions on 3 saws, may I ask if you are open to other brands? If not, I'm quite curious as to why not.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi, I am looking to get a new dovetail saw in the new year (after all the Christmas bills are paid off), and I am looking at Bad Axe Stiletto, Rob Cosman, and Skelton saws. I would not expect many in the USA to have much/any experience of the Skelton saws as they are only sold in the UK.

If any of you have any experience, good and bad, of using any of these that would be great.

Thanks
Charlie

It would help to know a few things:

1. How much importance do you place on aesthetics? Put another way, do you care if your saw is "heirloom quality" (as L-N prints right on their boxes) or are you mostly interested in function?

2. Do you file your own saws, or do you need something that comes full tuned and ready to go?

3. Do you have any unique preferences in terms of ergonomics or tooth geometry? For example, do you want an unusually large or small handle, or zero rake or a hybrid filing?

If your answers are "yes", "no", and "yes" then Bad Axe (or Wentzloff...) is a no-brainer. Mark will basically sell you whatever you want, aesthetically, ergonomically, and functionally. If you're not sure what you want then he's pretty good at figuring it out.

Conversely, if your answers are "no", "yes", and "no" then you're barking up the wrong trees altogether - You would arguably want something more along the lines of the Veritas saws, i.e. a quality sawplate with workable ergonomics for the lowest possible price. This is basically where I am now.

I don't own any Cosman saws, but my understanding is that they come fully tuned like Bad Axe but with less customization - "yes", "no", and "no" to the questions above. Also, the progressive tooth pitch that he uses (22 tpi at the tip, 15 tpi body) is somewhat polarizing. I prefer either uniform teeth or constant pitch with progressive rake.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Why not begin with the Skelton saw ? they are a piece of art, its uk made. That should mean something. I doubt that other makers are making a better saw.

[Patrick Chase]

It would help to know a few things:
I don't own any Cosman saws, but my understanding is that they come fully tuned like Bad Axe but with less customization - "yes", "no", and "no" to the questions above. Also, the progressive tooth pitch that he uses (22 tpi at the tip, 15 tpi body) is somewhat polarizing. I prefer either uniform teeth or constant pitch with progressive rake.

So I went and looked at Cosman's site. That seems like an awful lot to pay for a plastic-handled saw (so much for aesthetics) with no customization to speak of. I bet you could get a very nice-looking saw with the same progressive filing (his "secret sauce") from a custom maker for less cash.

[Mike Henderson]

So I went and looked at Cosman's site. That seems like an awful lot to pay for a plastic-handled saw (so much for aesthetics) with no customization to speak of. I bet you could get a very nice-looking saw with the same progressive filing (his "secret sauce") from a custom maker for less cash.
If you want a progressive tooth saw, LN makes one. But you don't need progressive.

Mike

[Patrick Chase]

If you want a progressive tooth saw, LN makes one. But you don't need progressive.

Mike

Which LN saw? I know they make tapered (in height, not in thickness) blades, but am not aware of a progressive-pitch saw like Cosman's. It wouldn't surprise me, given that Cosman seems to have gotten many of his product ideas from his former employer...

I personally agree w.r.t. progressive pitch, but I also know people who swear by saws like the Glen-Drakes (now *those* things have weird toothing) or the Cosman. My point was that even if you like such saws, there's no reason to spend $300 on a mass-produced "ebony resin"-handled saw like that. For that kind of money you can buy a custom saw that otherwise appeals to you from a professional who will put whatever toothing you want on it.

While I'm not sold on variable pitch I'm still playing a bit with variable rake. I've set one of my rip saws up with 15 deg at the toe, transitioning to 5 through most of the front and the heel. It's nice for cuts that have to be started on the near corner (for example on half- and double-blind dovetails) since the tilt required for those makes the net effective rake at the start of the cut (when the tilted saw is acting on a flat workpiece) more aggressive. I haven't decided if it's worth the hassle though, and I expect that I'll eventually grow out of it as my technique continues to improve.

EDIT: When glancing at Cosman's wares I forgot that he's Canadian, and that the recent crash in commodity prices (esp oil) has not been kind to the $CDN. His plastic dovetail saw is "only" $220 US, though that's still fairly exorbitant for what it is given that Bad Axe is about the same and Wentzloff and L-N are much cheaper.

[Allen Jordan]

I own both LV dovetail saws, and have tried the Rob Cosman and a few Bad Axe saws. And I still prefer using my cheap 18 tpi "small rip dozuki" from lee valley. It's so easy to start and cuts a super-thin and straight line every time. Cutting on the pull stroke just feels better when following lines... maybe just my preference.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't know if LN still makes it - haven't checked the web site - but here's a couple of pictures of an LN progressive pitch dovetail saw that I have.

I'll echo with Allen said above - a Japanese saw will do fine for dovetails. I used one for years before converting to western saws because I was teaching.

I'll also add that you can cut very fine dovetails with almost any saw. It's much more in the skill of the person than in the saw.

Mike

[I just went and looked at the LN website. Looks like they don't offer the progressive pitch dovetail saw any more. You could contact LN and see if they have any more of them.]

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[Patrick Chase]

I don't know if LN still makes it - haven't checked the web site - but here's a couple of pictures of an LN progressive pitch dovetail saw that I have.

Wow, that's Progressive-with-a-capital-P. I wonder if that was a Cosman thing that they discontinued when they ended their association? Like everybody I've heard the rumors that Cosman wanted less "tradition-constrained" designs and Thomas L-N resisted...

Japanese vs western saws are very much a matter of subjective preference. I have several Dozuki, including the one that Allan mentioned. They work beautifully, but I've decided that I prefer cutting on the push for most things (though I still use the Japanese detail saws that LV sells for fine work). The OP listed exclusively Western saws in his request, so I concluded that he also prefers Western-style backsaws and answered accordingly.

[Stewie Simpson]

Wow, that's Progressive-with-a-capital-P. I wonder if that was a Cosman thing that they discontinued when they ended their association? Like everybody I've heard the rumors that Cosman wanted less "tradition-constrained" designs and Thomas L-N resisted...

Cosmans move to composite handles may add some strength to that argument. He may have had a more receptive audience had he been working for Veritas.

[Ron Bontz]

Just my 2 cents. Since you are in the UK and the extra you pay for importing into the UK can certainly add a few lbs to your tool, ( I've shipped a few saws that way ), I think I would search some of the UK forums and see if some one is close by that has a Skelton Saw. They have a nice design, look to be well made, and you avoid the extra lbs. A 12" dovetail is just as easy to make as a 10" dovetail. So I suspect the maker could help you on that note. Best of luck to you.

[Charles Balviene]

Thanks for all the replies,

Have a good new year
Charlie

[Chris Hachet]

I own bad axe and Bontz saws for a number of functions but really love my L-N dovetail saw. Less bling than Bontz or Bad axe, but it cuts fantastic. And ti is jsut the standard saw, no progressive teeth or any such nonsense. At roughly half the cost of a Bontz or Bad Axe.....