Drum Sander vs. Festool RS 2

[Kent Adams]

I have a small shop, 12x24 and I literally have no more room for stand alone machines, unless I remove one. I can't remove enough machines for a planer/jointer combo without a huge sacrifice in the other machines I like to use as well. I've been looking at a drum sander or an RS 2 to help me flatten boards at glue lines for things such as tabletops. I'd love to have a drum sander, but that means I'm going to have to either remove my combo belt sander or my lathe, which means I'll likely not use them because I don't have another good space for them. My question is this, is it a worthwhile investment to purchase something like an RS 2 to accomplish the same thing as a drum sander? I wouldn't have to sacrifice any machine for an RS 2, but I'm not sure if the RS 2 actually will accomplish the same task (albeit more labor intensive) as a drum sander. The RS 2, before the sandpaper, is a 1/3 of the price of the drum sander I'm looking at, which is below. If I were to purchase Festool sander paper in the grits I want (yes, I know I don't have to purchase their sandpaper, then we are at 1/2 the cost of a drum sander). If you own an RS 2 or similar finish sander, what are your thoughts for my use case scenario? I've included a picture of my shop so you can see my dilemma.



http://www.woodcraft.com/product/857815/supermax-1938-drum-sander.aspx

https://www.festoolusa.com/power-tools/sanders/rs-2-e-orbital-finish-sander-567696

[David Helm]

Doubt you'll get anywhere near the results with the festool. The drum sander will quickly do what you want. Get rid of the sheet rock standing against the wall and you might have the room.

[Kent Adams]

Doubt you'll get anywhere near the results with the festool. The drum sander will quickly do what you want. Get rid of the sheet rock standing against the wall and you might have the room.

LOL, that's not sheetrock, it's BB plywood. Poor picture quality. That's the only place I have to put my sheet goods.

[Andrew Kertesz]

If you don't have an immediate need for the drum sander search for a used one. You will need room for infeed/outfeed you could store it under your drill press until you need to use it. Doesn't necessarily have to be stationary...

[Kent Adams]

Hi Andrew. I've been searching for a used one for over a year now in my local craigslist and haven't come upon anything yet that will fit in a space without me removing something.

[Richard Shaefer]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're probably not making best use of that space. Nice to have a shop with so much light, tho

[Kent Adams]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're probably not making best use of that space. Nice to have a shop with so much light, tho

I'd love some help if you have some ideas on how better to utilize the space. I'll post better and more clear pictures as well if that will help you in your advice.

[glenn bradley]

No short answer here . . . I'm afraid that this is an apples to oranges comparison. Other than the fact that they both use abrasives, a drum sander and a ROS are designed for different jobs. You definitely have a space challenge there but, let's look at the tools first. A drum sander like the Supermax (hard drum surface, platen and conveyor belt) can do fairly accurate thicknessing operations, surface preparation and of course, panel sanding. A ROS uses a small flexible pad to remove previous sanding or milling marks and yield a smooth random scratch pattern. If the ROS is used to remove too much material the result is anything but flat.

Having that said, consider your requirements. You want to do things like flatten boards at the glue lines. You also mention that you do not have a jointer / planer team. I do not see a bench that is conclusive to hand tool use so I assume you are using boards that have not been surfaced and jointed true. If this is true much of your panel glue up irregularities start there. My point is (and I do have one :)) is that you may be able to meet your requirement another way.

Although I do have a Supermax 19-38 I do not use it much for panel work. My focus with this machine is thicknessing of difficult stock or surface prep en masse prior to using hand tools. My primary tools for panel stock prep are the jointer and planer. Once the nice straight and true boards are glued into a panel, a couple of swipes with a card scraper take care of any "oops" spots I might have made for myself.

As long as the coffee is kicking in and I am starting to blather I'll toss out some more stuff that you are free to ignore :D.

We all work differently but, I have never been able to justify the space requirements of a RAS or a SCMS versus what they do for me. I don't do a lot of trim work so my non-sliding CMS sets out in the shed waiting for the next bathroom remodel or whatever. I just had to have one but in fact, use it only every couple of years. When it comes to breaking stock down, my jigsaw does most of that work and takes up almost no room at all. When the CMS left the shop I found I had room for an edge sander and a drum sander. For furniture making I use the bandsaw, tablesaw or router for the tasks one might use the RAS or SCMS for.

Although it is always easier to give advice than to follow it, I have benefited from many ideas tossed out by Creekers when it comes to shop organization and layout. You have a wonderful, though challenging space for your shop. Sometimes the way to make more room is to really get aggressive on layout; it is a lot of work to re-org a shop space but, I have done it twice in the last 12 years and found room I didn't know I had. Our shops are like containers of water; the stuff in them will spread out along the path of least resistance. Give us a few more pics and I'll bet someone will offer up at least one idea you haven't thought of.

[Kent Adams]

Thanks Glen for a lot of thoughts there. Eventually, I hope I can get rid of that table of drawers, but not yet. I will have a bench, which is being delivered today, an adjust-a-bench (I have a temperamental back). I'll post some pictures of my workshop to get some space saving ideas.

[Scott Allen27]

I don't know how open to change you are , but personally I would probably remove the table saw (and outfeed table) and put in a small combo machine - namely the Minimax lab300 or c26 .
For the same space you would then have a much safer sliding table saw, jointer , planer, shaper , and mortiser.
I have a cu300 in my shop which in total equals one side of a 2 car garage and love it.

[Kent Adams]

I don't know how open to change you are , but personally I would probably remove the table saw (and outfeed table) and put in a small combo machine - namely the Minimax lab300 or c26 .
For the same space you would then have a much safer sliding table saw, jointer , planer, shaper , and mortiser.
I have a cu300 in my shop which in total equals one side of a 2 car garage and love it.

I'm very open to that, want to buy a slightly used 5hp PM2000 for $3500?

[glenn bradley]

Thanks Glen for a lot of thoughts there. Eventually, I hope I can get rid of that table of drawers, but not yet. I will have a bench, which is being delivered today, an adjust-a-bench (I have a temperamental back). I'll post some pictures of my workshop to get some space saving ideas.

I am jealous of your newly arriving bench. The Noden can present some challenges as far as storage but, I have seen people build small drawer units into the base. This can hold the tools you use frequently at the bench and eliminate the need to move across the room to get them. I built a large drawer unit under my Supermax that has a smaller footprint in the center itself. This takes care of most of my abrasives and everything I use for that tool and others. If you have any machines on bases that do not provide drawers, I would build new bases for them with drawers. This will help you lead you towards being able to eliminate the large drawer unit that you're dissatisfied with.

[Scott Allen27]

I know there was a guy last year in Charlotte that was selling his Lab300 for not a whole lot more than that. I'm not sure if he still has it or not.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

No way I could utilize my 18x20 shop better without my CU300 combo.

[Richard Shaefer]

I'd love some help if you have some ideas on how better to utilize the space. I'll post better and more clear pictures as well if that will help you in your advice.

Please do.
my shop is 16x20 and I have way more functionality and comfortable space around large tools than you do in a space around the same size. It flagged to me that you can't fit a J/P combo machine and my new one shows up today, and I'm getting one to save space over my current arrangement.

post up the tools you have, the tools you want, the plan area of your shop, location of doors, wize and location of Windows, height to underside of the windows, and the type of material you handle and woodwork you do.

[peter gagliardi]

That particular festool sander will be less than worthless for your described task. Instead, you should very seriously look at either a good handheld belt sander- 4x24" size, or the alternative would be the Festool 6" Rotex sander.
The festool will be almost, but not quite as fast at flattening and blending the gluejoints you describe as the belt sander. The problem is, if you are not a "good mechanic" with hand power tools you will wreck your work in short order.

I have seen countless guys who "think" they can run a sander properly, especially a belt sander, only to see them make firewood.
These tools can do great amounts of work, but you have to possess the right amount of sensitivity and finesse to achieve desired results.

[Cary Falk]

Put the drum sander on wheels(along with other things). Everything in my garage is on wheels. Everything resides on 1/3 of a 3 car garage when 2 of the cars are in. Back the cars out and do some work. I wouldn't get rid of my drum sander.

[Hoang N Nguyen]

This is just my personal opinion so take it for what it's worth. I have the supermax 19-38 and thinking of selling it due to the space it takes up and the little use it gets. I bought it with the intentions of flatting table tops and the likes but soon realized how heavy some of these table tops can get which makes it impossible for me to move them around and feed it through the sander on my own.

On my last project, I made a dining table top that was 42"x92" out of maple. The sucker was heavy and no way I'm moving it through the drum sander. I picked up a Festool RO150 with a hard pad and slapped a 80 grit paper on it and went to town. I was able to get the table darn near dead flat within 20 minutes of sanding. I finished it off with my ETS EC 150 using 100 and 120 grit paper.

After that last project, I pretty much made up my mind that I will not likely keep my drum sander. I just don't want to sell it yet because I just bought it and have only used it to sand my friends table top (found out it wasn't that easy).

[Mark Carlson]

I have a small shop too and have space issues. Never seen a need for a drum sander. Maybe I dont understand there purpose. If you're making table tops what size drum sander is going to remove a glue line? If you prep your stock well, and glue correctly your glue line should be minimal and the festool sander should work just fine. Thats what I do.

~mark

[Art Mann]

Mark, you may not see a need for a drum sander but that is because you have not encountered a situation where you needed one. I can assure you that they are almost a necessity for some types of work.

[Joe Adams]

I own both a Performax 37x2 and a stable of Festool sanders. I use them for different purposes.

The drum sander is great for flattening live edge slabs but it takes two men working in tandem to feed and catch the stock in order to minimize snipe. On this particular machine, the head moves during height adjustments so infeed and outfeed tables are useless. It also works great for thicknessing smaller boards as well as handling wild grain that would otherwise be prone to tear out. The abrasive paper is expensive (Klingspor) and not quick to change for grit progression.

I'd never use it for removing glue joints. I'd probably use my Festool ETS150/3 or maybe the Rotex 150 if they were really bad. I use Dominos to align my glue ups and cauls to keep everything flat during the clamping process (with K-bodies).

Hope this helps.

[Kent Adams]

I own both a Performax 37x2 and a stable of Festool sanders. I use them for different purposes.

The drum sander is great for flattening live edge slabs but it takes two men working in tandem to feed and catch the stock in order to minimize snipe. On this particular machine, the head moves during height adjustments so infeed and outfeed tables are useless. It also works great for thicknessing smaller boards as well as handling wild grain that would otherwise be prone to tear out. The abrasive paper is expensive (Klingspor) and not quick to change for grit progression.

I'd never use it for removing glue joints. I'd probably use my Festool ETS150/3 or maybe the Rotex 150 if they were really bad. I use Dominos to align my glue ups and cauls to keep everything flat during the clamping process (with K-bodies).

Hope this helps.

Joe, I have an ETS 150/3 and ETS 125. I'm hesitant to use them for fear of dishing out the tops. The RS 2 Festool claims its primarily for flattening without the fear of dish out. That is why I was thinking it might serve my needs in my small shop.

[Frederick Skelly]

I don't think a hand sander (belt, ROS) will do a good job in this application. I know mine wouldn't.

I agree with the guys who say reorganizing your shop is a good first step and especially with Cary's point of putting some of your machines on wheels. I've had good luck with that approach. Machines that aren't needed for the current job can be moved out of the way. It's not as attractive as a permanent place for each machine, but it's extremely functional.

A final idea to consider. I use a couple hand planes to flatten table tops after glue ups. It works well, it's not expensive and it takes little space.

Fred

[Kent Adams]

Hi Frederick,

I wouldn't/not skilled enough to use a belt sander to flatten, I can barely control one. Currently, I do have everything on wheels, but I think I need to build bases rather than use the OEM stands so I can make drawers and get rid of that floor cabinet to free up some room. I've got some hand planes I'm still working on to learn, picked up a couple at the LN tour that came to town a few months ago. Ideally, I'd love to have the skill to go all hand tool, then I'd have plenty of room in my shop.

Festool claims this sander is specifically used for large surfaces and can flatten tabletops. They don't claim that on their other sanders. I love my ETS' and people on the net give this RS a very high recommendation for flattening use scenarios. No one here has mentioned that they've owned one or have used one, but are sure it won't work.

From FS website description:

The large 4 1/2" x 9" (115 x 228 mm) sanding surface and a 3/32" (2.5 mm) sanding stroke makes the RS 2 the perfect choice for fine sanding large surfaces. Typical applications include intermediate sanding of varnished doors, leveling large surfaces, and fine sanding of delicate stock. An additional ergonomic hand grip enhances controllability and reduces fatigue during long sessions. This sander is especially good for applications that require an absolutely even surface (like tabletops).


Large rectangular 4-1/2 x 9 inch pad, the RS 2 handles large surfaces quickly and evenly.
Orbital sanding action with a tight 3/32 inch (2.5 mm) stroke for even and consistent results even on lightly veneered surfaces.

[Joe Adams]

I've been looking at a drum sander or an RS 2 to help me flatten boards at glue lines for things such as tabletops.

My question is why you're having to do a lot of flattening with your glue ups? If you plane your boards to the same thickness, joint the edges, use Domino's or something similar for alignment, and cauls to prevent tenting in addition to parallel clamps during glue up, there should be very little if any flattening required.

That being said, sometimes flattening is required for other situations. A drum sander does a very good job but (in my opinion) is a two man operation to minimize snipe at the ends. I usually stop at 120 and this still leaves linear grooves that have to be sanded out afterwards.

For flattening massive slabs, I've also used a shop made router sled running back and forth across the board along parallel rails on each side. This can leave slight scallop marks that still need to be sanded out afterwards. There is a free download of an article by Nick Offerman called "Level Big Slabs in No Time Flat" on Fine Woodworking's website. Here's the link http://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdffree/011222044.pdf

I love my Festool ETS 150/3 because it's so smooth to use. I follow Festool's sanding protocol and sand back & forth across the grain for the length of the board followed by sanding back & forth with the grain for the width of the board.

I don't own an RS2 but have heard good things about it. Maybe I should look into it! :)

Have you tried posting this question on the Festool Owners Group forums? They get a bad rap for being fanboys (and that can be true) but there's a lot of good information to be found about the tools. I'm a member there, too.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hmmm. That does sound tempting doesn't it? I see why you're asking. If it was any manufacturer other than FT making that claim, I'd say "yeah, right" - like I said, my sanders won't. You have a lovely place to go "all hand tool" if you get to that point. I love all that light and that wood floor.

I'll be watching the rest of the thread to see what FT owners say.

Fred

[Bill McNiel]

Kent,
I have and use; a router sled, a Supermax 25/50 and a RS2, here is my $0.02.

The RS2 is a great 1/2 sheet sander but it will take forever to "flatten" a board that has any significant issues. It will remove imperfections but not major stuff. Main use is 2nd to final sanding, or scraping, of larger surfaces like tables, sanding faces on large planks where I want to maintain the original milling marks or leveling epoxy fill on slabs.

The 25/50 is used for almost the same functions as described by Glen but I have also found it to be very helpful in surfacing shop cut veneers. BTW-Glen's comments about the ROS should not be confused with the capabilities of the RS2.

[Kent Adams]

Thanks Bill. That was very helpful.