Tearout advice wanted

[Shawn Christ]

I've purchased or acquired several hand planes recently and have been practicing to the point where I was comfortable trying to incorporate them into my work. I am working on two 18" x 23" tops for a pair of nightstands using #1/#2 air dried walnut (11% moisture content). After power jointing and thicknessing the boards, I flattened the glue-ups using a #5 jack at 30-45 degrees followed by a #4 smoother parallel to the grain. On one top I used a #6 parallel to the grain after the jack and prior to the smoother. On both tops, but particularly on the first top with knots and heavier grain swirls, I had some areas of significant tearout. The tearout occurred near knots or where grain changed direction.

I realize I need to evaluate my technique and it's quite possible my approach was flawed. I tried to pay attention to grain direction and had a closed mouth on the #4. When I started seeing the tearout, I also tightened the mouth on the #5. I honed the blades before I started and again in the middle of work on the first top, then repeated on the second top (rehoned 4 times). I also waxed the soles of the planes and was confident they were tuned relatively well considering how they worked previously.

So, how can I correct this? I prefer to not resort to ROS sanding but that is my back-up plan. I own a 24" transitional jointer which is currently out of commission, a 16" wood plane, a Stanley #6, #5, two #4s, a #3, a converted #4 scrub, a standard Stanley block plane, and a LN low-angle block plane, plus an Anant spokeshave. Or is there another plane for this job? A low-angle jack or scraper plane perhaps? Or a toothing blade? I do have a card scraper but the tearout is deep in many areas.

Any advice is appreciated.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

In terms of fixing it, I would use a card scraper if it were in my shop. You may not be able to get it perfect, but you can improve it. Go slow, take your time, and if you seem to be making it worse just stop. If you don't have a lot of time on a scraper, try using it a little bit on a crappy piece of scrap with a similar grain pattern before you get into your work piece.

[Allen Jordan]

I've also been planing air-dried walnut with many knotholes and grain reversals lately... it is extremely difficult to avoid tear-out while working it. My cambered jack was ripping chunks out of it like crazy. I recently bought a toothed blade for my LA jack that I intend to use for the remaining flattening, then switch to my smoothers. When smoothing, be sure to tune the chipbreaker... it is the most important part for reducing tear-out. You want it within 1/64" of the edge if possible, and with a 50-80 deg angle on the bevel that curls the chips. It must mate against the blade perfectly, too, so flattening both parts is a must. A narrow mouth helps too, though not as much as a close chipbreaker in my opinion. You can also raise the pitch of the iron, either with a small back bevel (for bevel-down planes), or a higher-angled primary bevel (for bevel-up planes). A combined pitch of 55 or 60 degrees works nearly as well as a fine-set chipbreaker.

[Brian Holcombe]

The issue, IMO, you need to control tearout in the roughing planes a bit more, that's a lot to take out with a smoother. Set the 6 plane or the woody for a medium cut with a fairly tight chipper and mild camber and make certain you are keeping the board flat while you work. Work in overlapping cuts along the grain until the tearout is gone. After that follow up with the smoother. The chips should come out straight and flat, if they do not then continue tightening the chipper until they do.

Keep your irons sharp!

[David Eisenhauer]

There are times that I work my freshly sharpened #3 (set with the mouth closed down and the chip breaker set very close) adjusted to take very shallow and short-run cuts around the knot areas from all angles.I make sure to apply a fresh wax job to the sole of the #3 at that time as well. A scraper is also an effective tool, even if it is a slow go due to deeper tear outs. Thinking about it, I don't know why I have not tried the same technique using my block plane. That may work as well. Basically, I try to just plane away the tear out sections and not the entire piece before resorting to the scraper, because the plane is easier to hold and push.

[Curt Putnam]

I'm guessing that the toother followed by very fine cuts from a freshly honed smoother (with chipbreaker set close) will do the job.

[Shawn Christ]

I'm guessing that the toother followed by very fine cuts from a freshly honed smoother (with chipbreaker set close) will do the job.
So Curt, when you say "toother" do you mean a toothed blade installed in any smoothing plane? Any particular tpi?

[Patrick Chase]

Oh boy, and we thought Stewie's post was likely to produce controversy.

There are (at least) 6 major things you can do to manage tear-out:

1. Make sure your blade is as sharp as possible. This is a no-brainer.

2. Make shallower cuts. As Brian points out this may or may not be practical, depending on what you're doing.

3. Use a close-set cap iron (bevel-down planes only). There has been a LOT of discussion of this topic on SMC and other fora. David Weaver (a former regular here) has a pretty comprehensive article on the topic up at The Other Forum That Shall Not Be Named. Do a search for "David Weaver cap iron" and you'll find it. It recently got some additional discussion on this forum here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226514-The-Veritas-Custom-Planes-more-than-a-review), and a search of the archives will reveal many more threads. In my experience this is the closest things there is to a "silver bullet" for tearout. When done properly it can enable moderately aggressive cuts (up to 4-5 mils or so) even in tearout-prone woods.

4. Use a tighter mouth (bevel-up or bevel-down). This usually isn't as effective as a close-set cap iron, and they're often mutually exclusive due to jamming.

5. Increase the cutting angle (bevel-up or bevel-down). This is very effective but degrades the surface finish a bit. In a bevel-down plane you can accomplish this by back-beveling the blade or by using a high-angle frog. In a bevel-up plane you can simply increase the microbevel angle. This can be combined with (3) and/or (4).

6. REALLY increase the cutting angle by switching to a scraper plane, cabinet scraper, or card scraper. This is a kill-it-dead solution but degrades the surface finish even more than (5)

[Andrew Hughes]

I have also found planing around Knots frustrating.Last table I made in alder had some knots so I went after them first with a card scraper.Then I can plane away the planer marks before hitting the crazy knot grain.

[Shawn Christ]

Thanks for the tips and responses. I should clarify I'm not looking for advice or a general education on avoiding tearout -- I realize that is a controversial topic which has been rehashed at exhausting lengths here on SMC. I do intend to reevaluate my technique, however, I was looking for advice on how to approach fixing the tearout using planes or hand tools. There were many good suggestions which are much appreciated.

[Robert Engel]

Shawn, In my limited experience I've found fairly deep tear out is impossible to fix without completely remilling the board which usually ruins it for the project. My most recent was with one of the worst - QS white oak.

I deal with shallow tearout with a scraper and maybe sanding.
Don't have a high angle plane or extra blade to do a serious back bevel but that's what I would try first.

Once I've identified a grain issue, watch the grain like a hawk and go to scraper at the first sign of rascally grain.
Good luck let us know how you make out.

[Stanley Covington]

Your statements appear contradictory.

"I should clarify I'm not looking for advice or a general education on avoiding tearout... I was looking for advice on how to approach fixing the tearout using planes or hand tools."

As I read your post, you have a board with tearout, but want to repair it with "planes or handtools." Of course, planes readily create tearout in ornery grain. So if you are to successfully repair the existing tearout in contrary grain with a plane, you will need to use the plane in a manner that does not create more tearout. So, ipso facto, everyone on the forum gives you advice (good advice, BTW) about how to use a plane to prevent tearout. But if you don't want advice about using planes in difficult grain, you should say so plainly.

Other than a plane, a card scraper is without a doubt the most effective tool for your purposes, as was suggested in a previous post to this thread. Not as fast as a plane, but no risk of tearout. Of course, you need to be able to sharpen it and use it properly, skills that are unique to scrapers.

If you still want to try with a plane, try an old trick: Wipe the board's surface immediately prior to planing with a wet rag.

I knew an old boy who used shochu when planing difficult grain. He thought the alcohol (a chemical very similar to water, BTW) worked better at taming the grain than plain water. Not all of it was applied to the board.

Using a ROS would be a last resort, as you noted.

[Kees Heiden]

Or drink all the shochu and call it a feature: https://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/seventeenth-century-textures-moldings/

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I feel a little bit about tear out the way I feel about knots and perfect dovetails. If you are building a piece that is truly going to be fine furniture, you want perfect dovetails, knots and tear out are unacceptable. But if you are building something you actually intend to use every day (a table I am going to put coffee on, which will sometimes be hot, have moisture on the bottom, spill), these things are not the end of the world. Just scrape it up, improve the surface as best you can, and make sure there is nothing truly sharp to catch fingers, cleaning rags, etc. In my house the daily wear and tear is going to cause imperfections within about a week that will be more significant than that little bit of tear out.

[Prashun Patel]

I've had reasonable success with a cabinet scraper. However, for tricky grain like this, I am still at the stage where busting out the pigtailed ROS is quicker and less stressful than playing Roulette with the blades.

[Andrew Hughes]

Hi Shawn,Sorry if got off the topic with your post.Hope I didn't add to the frustration of taming difficult wood with Handtools.

[Patrick Chase]

I knew an old boy who used shochu when planing difficult grain. He thought the alcohol (a chemical very similar to water, BTW) worked better at taming the grain than plain water. Not all of it was applied to the board.


Well, either way it's likely to make the piece you've been working look better to you.

EDIT: Most things are either alcohol- or water-soluble, but typically not both. Wood is water-soluble (which is why it raises the grain) but relatively insoluble to the alcohols.

[Kees Heiden]

I feel a little bit about tear out the way I feel about knots and perfect dovetails. If you are building a piece that is truly going to be fine furniture, you want perfect dovetails, knots and tear out are unacceptable. But if you are building something you actually intend to use every day (a table I am going to put coffee on, which will sometimes be hot, have moisture on the bottom, spill), these things are not the end of the world. Just scrape it up, improve the surface as best you can, and make sure there is nothing truly sharp to catch fingers, cleaning rags, etc. In my house the daily wear and tear is going to cause imperfections within about a week that will be more significant than that little bit of tear out.

I feel like you too. I love antiques with plenty of "character". Our coffeetable has a large pine top, full of cracks, knots and plenty of tearout. But it is a strugle when I make something new. I'd love to make stuff like that table, but part of me is looking for flawless and I also wouldn't know how to get the right look.

[Curt Putnam]

So Curt, when you say "toother" do you mean a toothed blade installed in any smoothing plane? Any particular tpi?
As I said, I'm guessing. I have used the Veritas toothed blade on gnarly soft maple. The thin slices it takes do no tear out and the thin ridges are easily removed by a fine cut smoother.
JMO & YMWV

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Not finding flawless is a problem I have somehow managed to avoid! I am usually weighing the imperfections versus what needs to be done to get rid of them, and factoring in the chances that my corrective measures will result in some other problem that will in itself need to be corrected. It does no good to have a perfectly flat, glassy surfaced, perfectly square board that is 1/2 inch thinner than I need because I planed most of it away chasing perfection. I don't have power tools, and in some ways I am glad I do not have the option of reaching for them. Eventually I always seem to get to a place where I can live with whatever problem is there, and move on.

If I am not sure what exactly I want or how to get it, I sometimes experiment with construction lumber, because it is cheap, and if everything goes wrong I can chuck everything in the fire and start over for about $10. I can try things with a ratty old 2 x 12 I would never bring myself to try for the first time on a piece of walnut. Sometimes the experiments work out well enough the "real one" never gets built.

[Shawn Pixley]

I don't think this works with your tool kit necessarily, but if this were in my shop, I'd use my LN Jack with the toothed blade diagonally until I got to the bottom of the tear-out. Then the rest of the board to ensure overall flatness. I'd then take a Number 3 with a very sharp blade and tight set shipbreaker / cap iron and the finest cuts to the problem areas until they were smooth & without tearout. I'd go over the balance of the surface with a really sharp #4 and tight set chip breaker until smooth. It looks like you reversed the grain direction at the glue line (I do that myself). You need to change planing direction there.

The voids in the knot itself should be filled IMO.

Please think "Sharp"