Musta been a good boy this year. Plus more sharpening advice.

[Patrick Walsh]

So as the pictures indicate i made out like a bandit this year. Still missing from the pictures but expectd is a new BadAxe stilleto dovetail saw.

As you can see everything including the vise is brand new. Two marking gauges, a Titemark kit and the wooden one i forget from who but it os really really nice, a Sterrett combination square a full set of LN chisels the #4 smoother the shoulder plane and a couple other odds and ends.

So i had asked questions about getting setup for sharpening a couple weeks ago. I mentioned to date i use Irvin Marples and sharpen on a granite 12x12 tile with sand paper up to 2000. I got some good advice from you all as to what i needed to get setup properly. I have decided to leave the machine out of the equation and just do this by hand.

Anyway all these beautiful tools and i need a proper way to sharpen them. I wanted the LN honing guide so i went and ordered that today along with the proper inserts. I wanted to order everything i need to sharpen from one place hence LN so i went with the DMT Dia-sharp or whatever ones are that are all metal. I got the three of them in the 11.5 long size. So course, fine and super fine.

I was inclined at first to go with the waterstones LN currently sell "1000-8000 (tel:1000-8000)" then then a $200 DMT flattening stone. Truth be told if i was going to go waterstone i really wanted to go with the Shapton glass stones. Being i could not do this at LN and i wanted the LN honing guide and to receive my order by the weekend, "im in boston LN is in maine" it was clear i was ordering everything from LN.

Then i noticed the all metal DMT's "not the ones with holes" and i pressed purchase. Did i make a mistake?

sorry my pictures are upside down. I should just left them out...

[ken hatch]

Patrick,

Nope, no mistake. Every thing you have is good and will do its intended job well. In fact I have most if not all stuck on a shelf, under a bench, or on a wall in my shop. As for sharpening advice, everyone will give different but here is mine....play with the DMT stones for awhile. Work with them until you can get a iron as sharp as it can get. Once at that stage think about adding a strop to refine the "polish" or maybe even a Shapton or other stone if you wish. The "polish" will not make the iron sharper for the most part but it may help make the "sharp" last longer. One last bit of advice...."Polish" ain't necessarily sharp, it may be or it could just be shiny.

Have fun and don't burn the numbers off the AmEx too quickly. It is easy to do.

ken

[Robert Engel]

I have the DMT Duo Sharp mesh type plates and they are fine except with narrow chisels or carving gouges, then the edges tend to hang in the holes. Also, I'm having the impression they do wear out faster than I thought they would. If I had it to do over, I would get the Dia Sharps.

I recently picked up a DiaSharp for my gouges and like it much better. Seems to perform better too. I believe they will serve you well.
I use a little window cleaner instead of water. I think it works better, and no rust if you forget to wipe with WD40.

Personally, I can't justify the cost of a Shapton over a water stone. My system works fine for me anyway.

That being said, I've recently gone back to my tried and true Arkansas stones and I'm really very happy with them.
My impression is surgical black is equal to or better than 8000 water stone.
Of course the good quality arkansas stones are not cheap anymore!

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick,

Nope, no mistake. Every thing you have is good and will do its intended job well. In fact I have most if not all stuck on a shelf, under a bench, or on a wall in my shop. As for sharpening advice, everyone will give different but here is mine....play with the DMT stones for awhile. Work with them until you can get a iron as sharp as it can get. Once at that stage think about adding a strop to refine the "polish" or maybe even a Shapton or other stone if you wish. The "polish" will not make the iron sharper for the most part but it may help make the "sharp" last longer. One last bit of advice...."Polish" ain't necessarily sharp, it may be or it could just be shiny.

Have fun and don't burn the numbers off the AmEx too quickly. It is easy to do.

ken

IMO the best sharpening setup is the one you already have (within reason of course). As Ken says there's nothing wrong with the collection of stuff you have on hand, so you'd might was well learn to use that until you find a good reason not to.

For diamond-based sharpening I personally prefer lapping films (coarse grits) and pastes (finer grits) to plates of any brand for all uses except stone-flattening, but the DMT DiaSharp plates you reference are plenty good. Just be aware that even in the finer grits they leave a pretty coarse/ragged edge that needs a bunch of refinement.

[Bill Houghton]

Can't answer on the sharpening, but I'm curious how you keep those tools on the ceiling like that.

[Rollie Kelly]

Obviously he lives in Oz!

[Matthew N. Masail]

Having a party aren't we?? :):D

I'm one to talk we all the HNT Gordon stuff I just got.... (Gloat pending)

As for sharpening diamond plates are fine. the stones LN carry are also fine, they are true splash and go. A friend bought the 1000\8000 combo, the 8000 put on an excellent edge.

My only advice to you would be to save some budget - A. for wood B. for tools needs that will pop up during projects.

That bronze #4 is a dream . .. .

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks all for the input.


I actually placed a order with LN last night. Im not sure i mentioned that above or not.


I took the time on my lunch break today to call LN and hash this over with them. After the conversation i feel fine with the decision i made to go with the Dia-Sharp stones. I will see how they work and add a 10000 Shapton if i am left wanting sharper. I already have a piece of granite and some sticky back sand paper for changing bevels if need be.


I do need to stop spending now as the spending has become a bit crazy to say the least. I am a carpenter by trade and at least feel for the intended purpose of furniture build there are certain tools that one must have to do nice work. For instance you must have a way to sharpen a chisel and a plane or it is of little use.


I started building the shop of my dreams a little less than a year ago. I am now nearing the end of the must have tools. I have purchased both used and new tools or machines. It is clear one could always find something else one needs butI'm pretty sure what i have now should get me through.


Really the big hold out is a proper hand tool bench. I will make the hand tool bench though and not purchase.


Thanks for the help. First on the docket are three exterior passage doors made of solid teak jamb, threshold casing and all. After that six pair of stain grade interior louvered shutters. Then i can get to building the stuff i really want to build.

[Matthew N. Masail]

That Felder Jointer\Planer is another dream... you have enough there to make a good production shop if you wanted too!

I hope you didn't forget plow plane, moving filister, router plane and stuff like that

[Jebediah Eckert]

Nice stuff, I should have been a carpenter I guess..........really nice stuff

[Patrick Walsh]

I don't forget anything ;)

Rounding out the hand tools is next years undertaking. Well that a sliding table saw a OneWay lathe and shaper tooling.

See it could never end!

For now its build the hand tool bench and chip away at the hand tools you suggested.

As for production shop that is also kind of the intent. I dont see myself ever doing production work but their is plenty of room for me to undertake millwork that is usually subbed out by my boss. Other than just wanting the tools impurchased for psonal use this was also part of my motivation. The tools will also get used for work purposes from time to time.





That Felder Jointer\Planer is another dream... you have enough there to make a good production shop if you wanted too!

I hope you didn't forget plow plane, moving filister, router plane and stuff like that

[Tony Shea]

So basically you have a world class shop setup. I must say I am extremely jealous of that shop, especially the Felder Jointer/Planer.

Back to the original question I think you will be well served by the stones you have picked up. I do think you will not be extremely happy with the final polish off the diamond stone and will pick up something to finish with sooner rather than later, especially while the stones are brand new. Brand new diamond stones are much coarser than you expect them to be but they will settle out after a short while. Be sure and use the entire stone while sharpening in order to keep the wear even, yes this matters even on a diamond stone.

A very quick and inexpensive solution to getting to the polish you want I HIGHLY recommend that you pick up a stick of Lee Valley green honing compound and make yourself an MDF or hardwood strop for the straight edges. This honing compound is a dream, even after you get some really fine stones. I still use that stuff a ton even though I have all the a Shapton Pro 12000/15000.

And one last tid bit is about Shapton Pro's. I recommend to EVERYONE here to go check out the Shapton Pro's at Amazon and make sure they are the stones from Japan, not the American versions. The price difference is absolutely insane. Shapton's response to the huge price difference is that the American stones have a slightly different makeup than the Japanese versions due to the differences in climate. I call bulls***. I have both versions and they couldn't possibly convince me there is a difference.

Just some food for thought. Did I mention that I am extremely jealous of your world class tools/shop?

[Patrick Walsh]

Great tips,

Namely using the whole stone and the American vrs. Japanese Shaptons.

I will look into the honing compound. I suspect in a short amount of time i will be purchasing a Shapton 10K and a lapping stone. See there goes another $350!

I am still jealous of my shop too lol.

Now i just have to make a bunch of stuff that prove to "ME" taht i am worthy of such a shop ;)

I have put a unbelieveable amount of time and resources into building this shop in the last year. I had major electrical work to do with each machine getting its own dedicated 30amp outlet. I still need to figure out heat. Being the shop im my basement it never drops below the mid 50's but that is just to darn cold to really glue and finish.





I
So basically you have a world class shop setup. I must say I am extremely jealous of that shop, especially the Felder Jointer/Planer.

Back to the original question I think you will be well served by the stones you have picked up. I do think you will not be extremely happy with the final polish off the diamond stone and will pick up something to finish with sooner rather than later, especially while the stones are brand new. Brand new diamond stones are much coarser than you expect them to be but they will settle out after a short while. Be sure and use the entire stone while sharpening in order to keep the wear even, yes this matters even on a diamond stone.

A very quick and inexpensive solution to getting to the polish you want I HIGHLY recommend that you pick up a stick of Lee Valley green honing compound and make yourself an MDF or hardwood strop for the straight edges. This honing compound is a dream, even after you get some really fine stones. I still use that stuff a ton even though I have all the a Shapton Pro 12000/15000.

And one last tid bit is about Shapton Pro's. I recommend to EVERYONE here to go check out the Shapton Pro's at Amazon and make sure they are the stones from Japan, not the American versions. The price difference is absolutely insane. Shapton's response to the huge price difference is that the American stones have a slightly different makeup than the Japanese versions due to the differences in climate. I call bulls***. I have both versions and they couldn't possibly convince me there is a difference.

Just some food for thought. Did I mention that I am extremely jealous of your world class tools/shop?

[Patrick Chase]

If you have the Ohishi 8K you're not going to get any benefit at all from the Shapton 10K glass. It's just more money for less of a basically equivalent stone.

The Shapton 10K uses 1.5 um abrasive particles, which would be considered 7K or 8K grit by most other makers. For comparison, the Sigma 13000 uses 0.74 um abrasive and the Sigma 10000 is sub-micron as well. I haven't used the Ohishis, but my understanding from others who have them is that they're closer to the rest of the industry than to Shapton in grit numbering.

My own experience is consistent with what I wrote above: I have a near-complete set of Shapton Pros (basically everything but the 30K) as well as a bunch of Sigmas and Besters, and the Shaptons leave a coarser finish at any given stated grit than do the other brands (unless I use them on tough/exotic steels, in which case their hardness causes the abrasive to break down in situ, thereby reducing the effective particle size. This is not a good thing).

If you were going to go for something finer than the Ohishi 8K then I'd recommend the Sigma 13K, but I doubt you'll see any tangible benefit in use (as opposed to under a 'scope). If your technique is remotely good then 8K should be sufficient for woodworking.

[Dave Parkis]

Wow!!!! You must have been a VERY good boy. I'm pretty sure the wooden marking gauge is a Hamilton. I have one and I love it. I prefer it to my Tite-Mark. Congrats on the haul!!!

[glenn bradley]

Great haul! Talking about sharpening is a lot like talking about dust collection or Festool superiority; there are plenty of opinions . . . here's mine :p. I have been running DMT Dia-Sharp (the continuous plates) for over a decade. They are not my only sharpening "tools" but, they last and last. I have a 600 grit that is over 12 years old. I know some folks post about the longevity of these stones. I too have been disappointed in products from EZ-Lap and Trend but, for the DMT's I experience a very long-life. It may be because I read the directions(?):

"All models are designed to be used dry or with water so there are no messy oils and extensive clean up to worry about. Always clean the DMT sharpening surface after sharpening. Rinse surface with water and wipe dry. After several sharpenings, clean more thoroughly with a mild abrasive and brush; rinse surface with water and wipe dry."

I use a natural bristle brush. If the bristles start out too coarse to reach into the finer grits, don't worry. The diamond surface quickly "modifies" the bristle tips to work with even my 1200 grit plate. I do not have any of the finer plates. I find that micro-abrasive film on glass does better for me with finer grits up to about 3 micron. This "Scary Sharp" method for finer grits works well in my shop as the film is not too expensive and is quickly replaceable versus maintaining the higher grit surfaces.

[Matthew Hills]

Very nice shop.
How much lighting do you have in the space? (photos looked a bit dark, but think you didn't have all lights on)
How do you like the felder dust collector?
What are you using the Yates jointer for now?
and I'm curious why the felder mortiser over other options?

Do you have plans for the floor? (I have heavy rubber mats around the benches/stationary tools in my garage. This is a good start; am still a bit envious of the folks who put in insulated wood floors)


Matt

[Matthew N. Masail]

Just a commemt on lapping plates, I would get a couple of Atoma diamond plates (400grit for finer stones and 140grit or whatever it is for coarse stones if you have them). I've had an atoma 400 for years and it's fantastic, no rust no wear as I use if only on stones. Once in a while clean it with a pecile eraser if it get clogged with dry swarf but thats rare and depends on your stones. Nothing against the Shapton but I think it's got "premium" pricing on it.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you for the compliments.

My shop is 1000sq ft.

I have a combo of T-8 fixtures and LED. I think 4 total T-8 fixtures 4 bulbs a piece. Then i have 5 LED fluorescent tube style fixtures. The space is bright very bright! I will replace the T-8 fixtures with LED fixtures at some point. The LED light is very pleasing.

The Felder dust collector is awesome! Like really really awesome!
If i could had gotten the RL160 into my space I would had done it. It can also be hooked up to all 3 phase Felder machines so it auto starts and stops when you turn on your machines. I have single phase so sadly that feature does not work for me.

I gave my Yates jointer to a co worker and friend. I could not bring myself to let it fall into hands that might scrap it.

Why the Felder mortiser over other options well because i clearly like Felder. Plus i got it used in new condition for 1K more than a new Powermatic. It is a real machine not a toy and i trusted that the opinion of those whom own them that they pale in comparison with regard to quality to the likes of Powermatic and General. After some use i can say it cuts like a dream and leaves the cleanest mortise one could ever ask for. The domino was my other option but i wanted the ability to mortise mor than 2.75". My intent was to take my tiem and purchase the best tools and the tools i wanted the first time with the intent they will last the rset of my life if not at least most of it.

No plans for the floor. I do have heavy duty commercial gym flooring down in front of all my machines and benches barring my jointer/planer. I may have pictures, the stuff is very very nice.

The cement floors are hell on the feet and i already have nerve damage in my feet from a prior running addiction so i am pretty picky about what i stand on and for how long. Plus I'm a residential carpenter/home builder so i have little choice of whats under my feet 40-50 hrs a week.






Very nice shop.
How much lighting do you have in the space? (photos looked a bit dark, but think you didn't have all lights on)
How do you like the felder dust collector?
What are you using the Yates jointer for now?
and I'm curious why the felder mortiser over other options?

Do you have plans for the floor? (I have heavy rubber mats around the benches/stationary tools in my garage. This is a good start; am still a bit envious of the folks who put in insulated wood floors)


Matt

[Patrick Chase]

And one last tid bit is about Shapton Pro's. I recommend to EVERYONE here to go check out the Shapton Pro's at Amazon and make sure they are the stones from Japan, not the American versions. The price difference is absolutely insane. Shapton's response to the huge price difference is that the American stones have a slightly different makeup than the Japanese versions due to the differences in climate. I call bulls***. I have both versions and they couldn't possibly convince me there is a difference.

Ditto - I have examples of both JP and US Pros, and they're the same stone. The "climate" explanation is beyond ludicrous when one considers the wide range in North America.

Many have remarked that the same appears to be true of the Glass line, which may explain why Shapton has apparently stopped selling those in Japan. Too many grey market stones have been making the trip across the Pacific, preventing them from fully monetizing the stunningly widespread belief that their stones have magical properties.

In case it isn't obvious: IMO Shapton aren't "all that". They certainly aren't worth the US asking prices.

[Patrick Walsh]

I figured out the sharpening thing.

I decided on the DMT Dia-Sharp course, fine and extra fine. I will add some paste or compound to the mix at some point.

The bevel on the chisels were a bit off based on the factory grind then the jig i made for my honing guide per Lie Nielsen instructions. The difference was minor so i just changed the bevel with the course stone on the few chisels i was working with.

Im also concerned with the secindary bevel. Per lie Nielsen jig they suggest a 1/8 spacer to account for adjsutment for the secondary bevel. My secondary bevel looks a bit large. I will get pictures later.

Thank you all for the help!

[Jebediah Eckert]

Nice board set-up. Is that yours or the LN showroom :D ? Wow, I wonderd if they sold many of their screwdrivers, I guess I got my answer.

Sharpening station came out nice. I like the side stop on the left. Not to wide a board but still fit 5 stops.

[Patrick Walsh]

Right the board does look exactly like online pdf lie nielsen provides. Believe it or not thats just what i had for scraps. Some left over random decking probably maranti and a piece of scrap 1/2 birch plywood.

As for the screw drivers i felt by comparison to other LN tools they are short money and would preserve my expensive tools by not screwing up the heads of my screws.

The board works, pretty nifty. Makes sharpening idiot proof...

I have yet to visit the showroom even though i am in Boston or there about. I gotta save a pile of cash prior to that trip. Im thinking $2500 would barely do it being i have so few hand tools to date.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Haha. It's worth the trip for sure. I went this summer (we have family 20 minutes away). Real nice people and they will give you a tour. I enjoyed it, plus you get 10% off in the showroom.