Tenon saw size

[Cody Kemble]

I'm looking to get a larger size tenon saw and can't decide between a 16" or 18". I've searched the archives and every discussion goes off on one tangent or another. Has anyone really found the need for an 18" over the 16" variety and how often? I can't imagine needing more than 4" of depth with very few exceptions. Am I missing something here or is this just the old theory that "Bigger is better?"

[Patrick Chase]

I'm looking to get a larger size tenon saw and can't decide between a 16" or 18". I've searched the archives and every discussion goes off on one tangent or another. Has anyone really found the need for an 18" over the 16" variety and how often? I can't imagine needing more than 4" of depth with very few exceptions. Am I missing something here or is this just the old theory that "Bigger is better?"

For starters I wouldn't get too hung up on names.

A "tenon saw" is generally the largest rip-toothed backsaw in a woodworker's toolkit, so it should be large enough to handle the largest joinery-quality rip cuts that you expect to make. On the other hand, it's harder to make precise cuts with a larger saw than with a smaller one, so you don't want to overdo it.

FWIW I use a 16" tenon saw, but often find myself stepping down to a 14" hybrid-filed sash saw, both for the improved handling and because the sash saw has a thinner plate and narrower kerf. I wouldn't even consider an 18" tenon saw unless I also had something like the sash saw.

[Randy Karst]

Cody, like Patrick, I too have a 16" tenon saw, its a nice size, I like it. However, lately I have been considering purchasing a 14" tenon saw thinking that it might be a little handier for case work and smaller projects. For the work I do at least, an 18" tenon saw holds no appeal. I note that LN currently lists only a 16" tenon saw, so this appears to be the "sweet spot" in their opinion.

[paul cottingham]

In my experience, taller saws are easier to keep verticle. So i would be looking for the saw with the deepest blade. That being said, i have a tennon saw (an old Disston beauty) that i love, and a Bad Axe sash saw. I reach for the sash almost every time.

Of course YMMV, etc., etc.

[Kees Heiden]

I have made two tenon saws, One 16" the other 18". The 16" has a thick wide heavy brass back, the 18" has a thinner less weighty steel back. I like the lighter weight of my 18" saw a lot better! Now I can make long saw strokes and use it preferably for almost all tenoning work.

[lowell holmes]

I have saw made from a Ron Bontz kit. The saw plate is 4"x16"x12 tpi. I am quite happy with the saw and it's configuration. It is filed rip.

[Phil Mueller]

I'm just finishing up the Handsaw Essentials book by Schwarz. He believes longer and deeper tenon saws can improve accuracy. His point isn't that you will ever need the depth or length, but longer length and taller depth helps him stay on the line.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm just finishing up the Handsaw Essentials book by Schwarz. He believes longer and deeper tenon saws can improve accuracy. His point isn't that you will ever need the depth or length, but longer length and taller depth helps him stay on the line.

Hmm, how to put this delicately...

I have that book. I've read that book. That book helped me come to the conclusion that Schwarz is a better journalist and historian (and he deserves a LOT of credit for his role as the unofficial historian of the current hand-tool revival) than he is a sawyer. If he were right about that then we'd all be cutting dovetails with tenon saws. After all, dovetails are probably the most demanding rip cuts of all in terms of accuracy.

[John Kananis]

Hmm, how to put this delicately...

I have that book. I've read that book. That book helped me come to the conclusion that Schwarz is a better journalist and historian (and he deserves a LOT of credit for his role as the unofficial historian of the current hand-tool revival) than he is a sawyer. If he were right about that then we'd all be cutting dovetails with tenon saws. After all, dovetails are probably the most demanding rip cuts of all in terms of accuracy.

There's a point of diminishing return (Moore's Law essentially) - dovetails are not only precise but 'smaller' work - I think he was referring to tenons and larger work.

[Patrick Chase]

There's a point of diminishing return (Moore's Law essentially) - dovetails are not only precise but 'smaller' work - I think he was referring to tenons and larger work.

Moore's law merely said that you get twice as many gates per unit area/cost every 18-24 months (until escalating mask costs and quantum effects took the punch bowl away and effectively put an end to the party) - I don't see how that's analogous.

In any case, your argument seems to be a bit circular, in the sense that you don't explain *why* smaller saws are more appropriate for smaller work. IMO the answer is "because they enable you to do more precise/accurate work", and that's why I didn't and don't buy Chris Schwartz' contention. Is there some other beneficial aspect to smaller saws that you believe makes them better suited for dovetails?

[ken hatch]

Hmm, how to put this delicately...

I have that book. I've read that book. That book helped me come to the conclusion that Schwarz is a better journalist and historian (and he deserves a LOT of credit for his role as the unofficial historian of the current hand-tool revival) than he is a sawyer. If he were right about that then we'd all be cutting dovetails with tenon saws. After all, dovetails are probably the most demanding rip cuts of all in terms of accuracy.

Patrick,

Funny you posted this about Schwarz. I totally agree he deserves a lot of credit and respect for his role in the current hand tool revival and he is almost always an interesting read. But sometimes his advice is cringe worthy. I spent the week before Christmas on a beach in Mexico. With time on my hands and a backlog of WW videos on the RV's shelf, each evening I'd pop one or two into the machine. One was Schwarz's, I'm not sure of the correct title but something like, Super Tune a Hand Plane and in it there were several moments where I woke up from my beer and taco stupor and thought "where in the Sam Hill did that come from, it ain't the way it works".

Back to the OP's question with a question or two. Are you filling out your saw till or do you have a project in mind? If filling out the saw till, do you have a Sash saw? If you do then I would go with the 16" Tenon saw. If it is project related and that project was a large French style work bench then the answer might be the 18" Tenon saw. If a smaller project but too large for the Sash saw then go for the 16" saw.

ken

[Mark AJ Allen]

Moore's law merely said that you get twice as many gates per unit area/cost every 18-24 months (until escalating mask costs and quantum effects took the punch bowl away and effectively put an end to the party) - I don't see how that's analogous.

In any case, your argument seems to be a bit circular, in the sense that you don't explain *why* smaller saws are more appropriate for smaller work. IMO the answer is "because they enable you to do more precise/accurate work", and that's why I didn't and don't buy Chris Schwartz' contention. Is there some other beneficial aspect to smaller saws that you believe makes them better suited for dovetails?

Actually, if someone was making longer, taller saws with dovetail-appropriate teeth, CS would be correct; it would take less strokes and you would have better resolution on achieving the correct angle; both lead to dovetails cut faster with more accuracy. In fact .... Mr. Harrell at Bad Axe Tools has released a longer version his original dovetail saw with some of these ideas in mind. I don't think CS is incorrect but there are practical limits to making saws that restrict how high and long one might want for a dovetail saw which make it impractical to realize these concepts.

Personally, I don't get hung up on specialized tools for specific jobs unless I was a pro and did it for a living. I think the biggest drawback of using big saws for dovetails is balance.

[Patrick Chase]

Actually, if someone was making longer, taller saws with dovetail-appropriate teeth, CS would be correct; it would take less strokes and you would have better resolution on achieving the correct angle; both lead to dovetails cut faster with more accuracy. In fact .... Mr. Harrell at Bad Axe Tools has released a longer version his original dovetail saw with some of these ideas in mind. I don't think CS is incorrect but there are practical limits to making saws that restrict how high and long one might want for a dovetail saw which make it impractical to realize these concepts.

Good point - IMO what the Bad Axe Stiletto demonstrates is that depth is more important to accuracy than length. I've tried that saw, and to me it felt weird, but you can certainly do highly precise work with it. Note that unlike a tenon saw it still has a very thin plate and limited cut depth (and these are closely related...)

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick,

Funny you posted this about Schwarz. I totally agree he deserves a lot of credit and respect for his role in the current hand tool revival and he is almost always an interesting read. But sometimes his advice is cringe worthy. I spent the week before Christmas on a beach in Mexico. With time on my hands and a backlog of WW videos on the RV's shelf, each evening I'd pop one or two into the machine. One was Schwarz's, I'm not sure of the correct title but something like, Super Tune a Hand Plane and in it there were several moments where I woke up from my beer and taco stupor and thought "where in the Sam Hill did that come from, it ain't the way it works".

Yeah, I've seen that one too.

I think I knocked Chris a bit too hard, so here's my attempt to restore some balance. There are three things that make me like Chris and continue to read his output despite the occasional blatant misfire like that:

1. He's been pretty clear about where he's coming from. He's never claimed to be the second coming of Frank Klausz.

2. He's very much open to trying new things, and admits when his previous advice was wrong.

3. As previously noted he's done a lot of good work digging into and publicizing the history of our craft/hobby/whatever.

[lowell holmes]

What are dovetail appropriate teeth? I have 4 or 5 different saws I cut dovetails with. The most used is a LN dovetail saw.
Dovetail appropriate teeth changes upon whims for me and I suspect others as well.
Sometimes it is the one nearest to me at the moment. I have a 16" long tenon saw that will cut dovetails if I want to be rediculous.
:)

[Brian Holcombe]

I tend to prefer short saws but with aggressive teeth, which is a rare bird.

[lowell holmes]

I tend to prefer short saws but with aggressive teeth, which is a rare bird.

The Lie Nielsen dove tail saw sharpened with vertical rake is quite aggressive.

[Patrick Chase]

The Lie Nielsen dove tail saw sharpened with vertical rake is quite aggressive.

Any quality dovetail saw filed with 0 rake is going to be pretty aggressive. That's also a very easy tooth pattern to file, perhaps the easiest of all.