Beginning Japanese Woodworking

[Kenneth Fisher]

I was given a small Japanese style saw for Christmas. I've never really looked into Japanese woodworking before now, but this saw has my interest piqued. Out of curiosity would any one have a list of what would be considered the basic tools one would need? I'd be most interested in making furniture and boxes.

Thanks
Ken

[Jim Koepke]

There are quite a few books on the joinery and philosophy of Japanese woodworking. Here is one:

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/japanesewoodworkingtoolstheirtraditionspiritanduse .aspx

My limited understanding is the tradition was to pull the spirit of the wood toward the woodworker as opposed to the western style of pushing it away.

As far as the needed tools go it is pretty much the same as the needs for western style wood working: a few chisels, some marking tools and a few planes should be a good start.

My Japanese style saws still get used, but my western saws seem to work better for me.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with Jim's recommendations, a series of marking gauges, Kanna (Japanese planes), and chisels will get you through a great deal of work. You'll also need some layout tools and sharpening stones.

Being in Oregon I'd imagine your local to some people who may offer classes on setting up tools and working through some basic joinery.

There are often very practical reasons behind the spiritual ones, such as when pulling toward yourself you are using your lats which are stronger than your biceps. The temple builders finish many surfaces with a plane, so they would be pulling wide blades over large surfaces and they would need to use their strongest muscles to do so all day, quickly and effectively.

[Stanley Covington]

I was given a small Japanese style saw for Christmas. I've never really looked into Japanese woodworking before now, but this saw has my interest piqued. Out of curiosity would any one have a list of what would be considered the basic tools one would need? I'd be most interested in making furniture and boxes.

I have a couple of friends that live in Hillsboro, and have visited several times. Nice area, at least when the sun is shining the few days in the year.

Since you live in Oregon, I wouldn't worry much about "Japanese woodworking." There are Japanese style tools, there are Japanese varieties of furniture, chests, cabinets, architecture, etc., and there are Japanese ways of using woodworking tools. It would take years, and a lot of money, to acquire truly Japanese tools, and become proficient with them enough to make some of the Japanese style boxes and furniture. If you worry too much about the Japanese way of doing things, i think you will be frustrated quickly.

I suggest you purchase a few tools, a combination of Western and Japanese style ones, learn how to set them up and use them, and make something simple that you like and need.

Japanese Saws are great and easy to buy.

Japanese chisels are wonderful, but are more difficult to setup and maintain. A cheaper set by Narex, or some other brand debated ad nauseum on this forum, would be a cost-effective way to start.

I cannot recommend Japanese planes for a beginner. I own over a hundred Japanese planes. Too much trouble to get working and keep working for a beginner. A steel Bailey (Stanley) style metal-bodied plane, perhaps a number 4 or 5, (also debated to mind-numbing length on this forum) would be a good start. After you have figured out a Western plane, then the Japanese plane would be next.

I do recommend some waterstones for sharpening.

A Japanese kiridashi and marking knife would be useful.

A Japanese-style toolbox would be a good starting project.

Stan

[Kenneth Fisher]

There are quite a few books on the joinery and philosophy of Japanese woodworking. Here is one:

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/japanesewoodworkingtoolstheirtraditionspiritanduse .aspx

My limited understanding is the tradition was to pull the spirit of the wood toward the woodworker as opposed to the western style of pushing it away.

As far as the needed tools go it is pretty much the same as the needs for western style wood working: a few chisels, some marking tools and a few planes should be a good start.

My Japanese style saws still get used, but my western saws seem to work better for me.

jtk

Thanks for the book link, I've added it to my list. I'm very impressed with my little saw, supper smooth and easy to use.


I agree with Jim's recommendations, a series of marking gauges, Kanna (Japanese planes), and chisels will get you through a great deal of work. You'll also need some layout tools and sharpening stones.

Being in Oregon I'd imagine your local to some people who may offer classes on setting up tools and working through some basic joinery.

There are often very practical reasons behind the spiritual ones, such as when pulling toward yourself you are using your lats which are stronger than your biceps. The temple builders finish many surfaces with a plane, so they would be pulling wide blades over large surfaces and they would need to use their strongest muscles to do so all day, quickly and effectively.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm pretty isolated due to work and family so I have no idea what's out here, I'll have to poke around and see if I can find anything. I'm drawn to the design and layout ideas more than the spiritual, but I can see where it might be hard to separate them.


I have a couple of friends that live in Hillsboro, and have visited several times. Nice area, at least when the sun is shining the few days in the year.

Since you live in Oregon, I wouldn't worry much about "Japanese woodworking." There are Japanese style tools, there are Japanese varieties of furniture, chests, cabinets, architecture, etc., and there are Japanese ways of using woodworking tools. It would take years, and a lot of money, to acquire truly Japanese tools, and become proficient with them enough to make some of the Japanese style boxes and furniture. If you worry too much about the Japanese way of doing things, i think you will be frustrated quickly.

I suggest you purchase a few tools, a combination of Western and Japanese style ones, learn how to set them up and use them, and make something simple that you like and need.

Japanese Saws are great and easy to buy.

Japanese chisels are wonderful, but are more difficult to setup and maintain. A cheaper set by Narex, or some other brand debated ad nauseum on this forum, would be a cost-effective way to start.

I cannot recommend Japanese planes for a beginner. I own over a hundred Japanese planes. Too much trouble to get working and keep working for a beginner. A steel Bailey (Stanley) style metal-bodied plane, perhaps a number 4 or 5, (also debated to mind-numbing length on this forum) would be a good start. After you have figured out a Western plane, then the Japanese plane would be next.

I do recommend some waterstones for sharpening.

A Japanese kiridashi and marking knife would be useful.

A Japanese-style toolbox would be a good starting project.

Stan

Thank you for the information and suggestions. I have a basic kit of tools that I've been working with for a few months now. I'm trying to decide if I should add new tools to it or upgrade the ones I have and the Japanese style tools have just added another option. I've gone back and fourth on sharpening stones for awhile now, someday I'll just pick one. I'll be taking a closer look for a kiridashi and looking at Japanese tool boxes.

Any suggestions for saws? Sizes, types, brands to avoid?

Thanks
Ken

[Stanley Covington]

Any suggestions for saws? Sizes, types, brands to avoid?

Thanks
Ken

You wrote you were given a saw. What Kind?

The most useful Japanese saw for Americans is a good dozuki. Get one with a changeable blade. Z saws are the brand I like best. Changeable sounds disgusting, but everyone uses them even here (especially here) in Japan. There are some tricks to improve them we can talk about someday. Disposable blades have lots of advantages: Harder teeth than traditional blades and so stay sharper longer; easier to sharpen them (simply change them); more economical than traditional dozuki (since sharpening costs as much as a replacement blade, and takes a lot longer). High end traditional saws are necessary for high-end high-quality work, but as an amateur, you will probably never need one. I say this as someone that has several $500 custom made dozuki saws hand forged by famous sawsmiths, and used them to put food on the table for many years.

A dozuki does work no Western saw can truly replicate, and can help you learn precision joinery techniques quicker.

I would also suggest a changeable blade rip saw. Very useful. 7sun is good

If you do lots of joinery, a ryoba (double edged saw) may be useful. I own them, but really don't really use them except for field installation work where I want to limit the number of saws needed, and the precision required is a little lower.

There are really no bad brands sold by the major retailers like Lee Valley, etc, so long as they are made in Japan, and not Chinese knock-offs. The Chinese have yet to figure out (or found it worthwhile) excellent metallurgy and the art of good steel.

Stan

[Kenneth Fisher]

http://z-saw.co.jp/en/02b_07010_piercing150.html
This is the saw I was given. It's been a fun saw to use so far, I defiantly need more practice with it.

Thank you for all the information and help, I really appreciate it.

[Stanley Covington]

http://z-saw.co.jp/en/02b_07010_piercing150.html
This is the saw I was given. It's been a fun saw to use so far, I defiantly need more practice with it.

Thank you for all the information and help, I really appreciate it.

So you have the little saw. The 240mm is the next one to get. The greater length will allow you to cut faster and more precisely.

I also recommend the rip fine 250. If finances permit, and you are still interested in Japanese saws, the crosscut fine h-225 is useful. Next in priority is the H-265 which is a good one for all-around general cross-cutting.

I have been to the Okada factory and taken the dime tour. They really are well-made using pre-hardened Swedish steel, which is excellent steel indeed. The teeth are punched, then shaped and ground using diamond wheels. The blades are hammer (actually roller) tensioned, which is something almost no-one does anymore, including the overpriced garage-shop backsaw makers that have popped up everywhere lately. The teeth (other than dozuki saws) are hardened using a high-speed induction heating and quenching line and are harder than a saw file, so they stay sharp a long time, but cannot be sharpened with conventional files. Other makers use very similar techniques and make fine saws. I just like the Z-saws best.

The fact of the matter is that the easily-obtainable Japanese saws available nowadays have tooth geometry and hardness best suited to cutting softwoods, and sometimes do not perform as well in hard hardwoods as a well-fettled push saw will. One must be careful using a Z-saw dozuki, for instance, in maple or white oak as the teeth may actually break-off. Rip saws are not a problem, but the dozuki and crosscut saws can self-destruct if you loose control while cutting very hard wood.

If you really decide to get into woodworking long-term, and prefer using the harder hardwoods, you would do yourself a favor by getting some good old American saws such as those produced by Disston, Simmonds, Atkins or Bishop etc. (pre-1960's are best) from ebay, and learning how to use them and sharpen them too. Being skilled in both the Japanese and American English saw traditions is helpful, and gives you the ability to always have the right saw ready to go for the work to which is best suited.

[Kenneth Fisher]

Than you for the recommendations, they're very helpful.

I have a pre WWII set of 26" Disston saws (8pt rip and 12pt crosscut), a 26" Atkins crosscut from the 1900s that needs some love, a 1940s 12" Disston carcass saw, and a veritas rip cut carcass saw. I love using them all and don't think I'll be selling any of them any time soon. I'm waiting for a few things, then I'll start learning to sharpen them.

Right now I prefer the softer local woods like pine and Douglas fir. Eventually I'd like to try some hard woods.

[Eric Schubert]

I recently participated in some local Meetup group activities related to Japanese woodworking. The organizer loves the Japanese style. And though he wants to get more into timber framing, he also makes smaller pieces. Items like the 3-panel room dividers, box-shaped items, etc. I think he sells some of his items on Craigslist from time to time, but it's done as a hobby and to further his skills.

Might be of some use to look through his blog?
http://granitemountainwoodcraft.com

He mentions numerous Japanese tools and techniques.

[Kenneth Fisher]

I recently participated in some local Meetup group activities related to Japanese woodworking. The organizer loves the Japanese style. And though he wants to get more into timber framing, he also makes smaller pieces. Items like the 3-panel room dividers, box-shaped items, etc. I think he sells some of his items on Craigslist from time to time, but it's done as a hobby and to further his skills.

Might be of some use to look through his blog?
http://granitemountainwoodcraft.com

He mentions numerous Japanese tools and techniques.

Thanks for the link, I'll read through it tonight.

[Matt Lau]

You may also want to contact Stu from ToolsfromJapan.

Personally, I'd recommend getting a few good inexpensive tools instead of trying to go cheap.
I tried buying stuff off ebay, but found most of those tools (the cheap ones) were past their useful life and needed major work to be useable.

Personally, I'd recommend:
1. A good crosscut and rip saw. (Hard to find a rip saw as good as your Ditson)
I really like the Lee Valley steel backed saw.
Wilbur has some really great advice on his blog http://giantcypress.net/post/533383638/the-problem-with-buying-a-japanese-saw
2. Marking knife (you can use a Murphy mill knife bevel blade for under $8. http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=31080&cat=1,130,43332,43339 or the Stanley knife that Paul Sellers recommends https://paulsellers.com/2012/06/the-stanley-knife-i-use/).
3. Mortise gauge (get 2) http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=356_357&products_id=2039
4. A good hand plane. Personally, I'd recommend asking Stu for a budget user.
Otherwise, you can consider a Mujingfeng from Lee Valley or Japanese Woodworker. These are chinese, but surprisingly useful and have extremely hard working blades (also hard to sharpen).
5. Chisels--get a Koyama chisel from Stu in your favorite size. White steel is a dream to sharpen. Just wipe dry and oil after use. Buy more as needed.
You can also get some narex mortise chisels--pretty nice for the money.
6. Mallet
Deadblow mallet works great.
7. Sharpening.
While you could do sandpaper, I'd recommend springing for Stu's special sharpening set or George Wilson's fine diamond, sypderco med, spyderco fine/uf. I just used George's combo last night on a kanna (large gouges in the soft steel), and it brought it to a mirror gloss (which I brought back to normal with a natural stone).
8. A good square and straight edge.

Speaking as a guy who gets too hung up on things--don't get too hung up.
It's another approach to woodworking--yes, but a very complimentary approach to western ways.

[Kenneth Fisher]

You may also want to contact Stu from ToolsfromJapan.

Personally, I'd recommend getting a few good inexpensive tools instead of trying to go cheap.
I tried buying stuff off ebay, but found most of those tools (the cheap ones) were past their useful life and needed major work to be useable.

Personally, I'd recommend:
1. A good crosscut and rip saw. (Hard to find a rip saw as good as your Ditson)
I really like the Lee Valley steel backed saw.
Wilbur has some really great advice on his blog http://giantcypress.net/post/533383638/the-problem-with-buying-a-japanese-saw
2. Marking knife (you can use a Murphy mill knife bevel blade for under $8. http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=31080&cat=1,130,43332,43339 or the Stanley knife that Paul Sellers recommends https://paulsellers.com/2012/06/the-stanley-knife-i-use/).
3. Mortise gauge (get 2) http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=356_357&products_id=2039
4. A good hand plane. Personally, I'd recommend asking Stu for a budget user.
Otherwise, you can consider a Mujingfeng from Lee Valley or Japanese Woodworker. These are chinese, but surprisingly useful and have extremely hard working blades (also hard to sharpen).
5. Chisels--get a Koyama chisel from Stu in your favorite size. White steel is a dream to sharpen. Just wipe dry and oil after use. Buy more as needed.
You can also get some narex mortise chisels--pretty nice for the money.
6. Mallet
Deadblow mallet works great.
7. Sharpening.
While you could do sandpaper, I'd recommend springing for Stu's special sharpening set or George Wilson's fine diamond, sypderco med, spyderco fine/uf. I just used George's combo last night on a kanna (large gouges in the soft steel), and it brought it to a mirror gloss (which I brought back to normal with a natural stone).
8. A good square and straight edge.

Speaking as a guy who gets too hung up on things--don't get too hung up.
It's another approach to woodworking--yes, but a very complimentary approach to western ways.

Thanks for the advice, I'm working with what I have and mainly looking to add a bit at a time. I'll be emailing Stu once he gets back from holiday.