Hammer K3 Winner 79" sliding table alignment

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I took my Starrett 36" straight edge, feeler guage, and dial indicator to my Hammer K3 79" to align the sliding table to be level to the cast iron table and parallel to the blade. From the factory, the sliding table is higher than the cast iron table and has some runout toward the rear of the saw (0.007" over 10" travel for mine). After an hour, I had the sliding table level. The rear runout was set at 0.001" using a new 300mm saw blade. After I torqued all the bolts (6) holding the sliding table assembly to the chassis, it seemed that the sliding action of the table did not feel as smooth as prior to adjustments. I thought that this might be due to tension I introduced to the sliding table assembly with my adjustments. So, I loosen all the bolts and started over. The second time around, I proceeded slower. Afterward, the sliding action as a bit better, but not as smooth as I remember it (maybe my memory is faulty!). Again, I loosen everything. I am letting the table sits free over night, hoping to release any tension associated with my adjustments.

I can push the sliding table with one finger, but I must put a bit of my weight behind it to get it to move. The sliding movement becomes more difficult when the sliding table extends almost its entire length toward the front of the saw. It feels smoother when the bolts aren't torqued to hold the table down to the chassis.

Any Hammer K3 owner re-align their sliding table after initial setup? How is the sliding movement afterward? Any tip on making these adjustments?

[John Lankers]

I'm not familiar with the Hammer sliding table, but I do know that it is supposed to sit a few thou above the cast iron top and you also want the sliding table to run parallel to a thou or 2 away (toe out) from the blade, 007 sounds a bit excessive to me though.
To adjust the Felder X-Roll slider you have to follow a strict procedure and I suspect the same applies to the Hammer slider. If you can't get instructions here I suggest you call Felder and ask them for advise. If I'm correct the shorter sliders like your's come installed and properly adjusted from the factory and very seldom need tweaking.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

John, thanks!

It doesn't make sense to me to have both the rip fence and sliding table toed out toward the back of the saw. While I understand the reason for the toe outs, the two combined are disastrous for ripping operations. Imagine using the rip fence as a stop while advancing the stock along the blade using the sliding table. You end up with a trapezoidal product. If you rip using just the rip fence (like NA table saws), the higher sliding table lifts the stock to the left of the blade above the table. You end up with a non-square edge. So, I want to level the tables and reduce/eliminate the toe outs.

I were told by my sale rep that Felder adjusts all the machines to their specs before shipment. My K3 settings were all off a bit. The cast iron table isn't flat. It has a dip in the middle that is 0.006" lower than the two ends (not sure what to do about this). This is referenced against a Starrett 380-36 straight edge, which has a +/- 0.0002" accuracy per foot. I don't mind the misalignments because I eventually will adjust the machine to my preferences.

[David T gray]

well first off u shouldn't be using the rip fence and the slider at the same time and if u are using it to crosscut (the only time u should be using them together) you would be using a short fence before the blade mine is 6" long so if the fence was toe'd out at the end of a 50'' rip fence that is would be a non issue with a 6'' fence, not to mention u should be referencing the fence on the slider for crosscutting not the rip fence. for ripping on the slider u should make a parallel jig like so http://s75.photobucket.com/user/erikloza/media/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/012LongRip.jpg.html or two i use two so i can rip less then the fence will allow and just use small toggle clamps . u really need to read up on using a sliding table saw b/c there are a number of other jigs that are nice to have. also if u level the two tables every time u use the slider its going to catch the cast iron. there is a reason for every thing they have done .

.006 is not a problem

your probably tightening the bolts that hold the slider on too tight your warping the alu and causing the bearings to bind.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Wakashita,

Congratulation for you new saw. I went through the same thought process. The relationship between the slider, saw, and the rip fence is quite brain teasing. Just to make myself understand this issue, I wrote diagrams.

In the left, I exaggerate the "runout". As the slider moves, the wood changes the position from red, green, and black. I can understand that the effect of the runout is wider kerf but the cut is accurate and parallel to the sliding action. I believe this is what "runout" does. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If I put a dial indicator on the same position of the slider and move across the blade, the distance increases. I was told by Felder tech that the run out should be 0.003-0.004 with your largest blade. Mine was 0.004.

Now the tricky question is the rip fence. I think rip fence is also slightly runout in my saw. Because the rip fence and slider are runout in the opposite ways, their "unparallelness" multiplies.

When I use the rip fence as a stop-block, we should NOT follow the rip fence as it moves forward, because the stock is supposed to start to move away from the fence. So, we should set the cut depth using the rip fence once at a similar starting location, lock the stock tight against the slider, and move. In this operation, the rip fence does not have to extend to the blade and cutoff never gets pinched between the fence and the blade.

What is confusing, though, is the Fritz and Franz operation shown in the third figure. In this operation, my understanding is to use the fence to orient the stock in a way we can get the second parallel rip (the first rip by the slider, initiating a straight line). In the past threads in this forum, this operation was considered as "the" method to use the slider for the second rip. Although I agree that this is a safe operation as long as the rip fence stays behind the blade, my conclusion was that it is not an accurate procedure (correct me if I'm wrong).

The only way I find to use the slider for a good second parallel rip is, to use a parallel jig (fourth diagram), which is just an accurate large rectangular sheet attached against the crosscut fence, or precisely mark the location of the cut on the board and align it to the cut line.

There was an experienced person in this forum who owns both types of the saws and said it is ridiculous to use the slider for the second rip. I must agree that second rip would be easily done by the rip fence by the time we finish the set up on the slider. So, I think there is no reason to hesitate to use the rip fence on the slider. Some readers mentioned about the awkward position over the slider to do rip-fence ripping, but I don't get it. I usually stand right side of the fence anyway and the switch of my Hammer is actually right there.

Ripping of narrow stock? I think any table saws straggle for that and different people use different approaches and Fritz and Franz with a cut line marking (not with the rip fence) on the stock is one of them. I use a bandsaw, though.

I am also a new user of a slider (only 4 months) and may be missing some important points. I look forward more to hear.

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[James Zhu]

I believe this topic was discussed at Felder forum before when someone had the same issue. There are a few experts who have extensive knowledge about how to adjust the slider, for example, David Best who wrote the Felder Survival Guide. You probably want to post the question there, I am sure you will get the correct answer.

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

Hi Wakashita, your best friends are Felder representatives. Ask them to send calibration procedure or you can find one on Felder site - looks for "sliding table adjustment guide".
I would like to share, but can't upload pdf file, sorry.
I just finished same procedure for Felder machine - it s very tedious and time consuming. But I did it right on my last attempt and have perfect machine now.

Good luck, Ed.

[John Lankers]

John, thanks!

It doesn't make sense to me to have both the rip fence and sliding table toed out toward the back of the saw. While I understand the reason for the toe outs, the two combined are disastrous for ripping operations. Imagine using the rip fence as a stop while advancing the stock along the blade using the sliding table. You end up with a trapezoidal product. If you rip using just the rip fence (like NA table saws), the higher sliding table lifts the stock to the left of the blade above the table. You end up with a non-square edge. So, I want to level the tables and reduce/eliminate the toe outs.

I were told by my sale rep that Felder adjusts all the machines to their specs before shipment. My K3 settings were all off a bit. The cast iron table isn't flat. It has a dip in the middle that is 0.006" lower than the two ends (not sure what to do about this). This is referenced against a Starrett 380-36 straight edge, which has a +/- 0.0002" accuracy per foot. I don't mind the misalignments because I eventually will adjust the machine to my preferences.



Wakahisa, here is a link to an informative thread discussing slider operations and setup from 2013 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198099-Observations-on-Euro-style-sliding-saws
I don't have Felder's exact numbers, but your Hammer could very well be within their tolerance margins.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I think this thread is veering toward alignment specs for a sliding table saw. I asked about sliding table movement smoothness after adjustments are made. :D Regardless, I will reply to you all as best I can

Susumu, I had similar thoughts as you. Unfortunately, my K3 arrived out of alignment a small amount for every setting. Besides, I am particular, so I prefer things my way! :p

Per Felder factory, both the sliding table (ST) and the rip fence (RF) have toe out of 0.003-0.004" (mine were 0.006 and 0.007 respectively) and ST higher than cast iron table. The "unparallelness" of them multiplied when I used the RF as a stop to rip thin stock (face frame) using a Fritz and Franz jig. Please direct your attention to "A" in the figure below (angles are exaggerated for illustration purpose only). I don't have a short rip fence. With the toe out of 0.006", you can see that controlling widths of the stock is a frustrating exercise when the RF is slid all the way forward to clear the blade and act as just a stop. You may set the width to be 1.5", but with the toe out, it might be 1.4" where the stock touches the fence toward the front.

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Besides, I want to use the RF in the same manner as NA tablesaw AND with the Fritz and Franz method/jig per this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqzVglze9Nk). To these ends, I need to have the RF absolutely parallel to the blade and the ST and cast iron table level. A stop needs to be accurate, square, parallel, and reliable. Any toe out (or in) amount is unacceptable.

"B" in the picture above illustrates both RF and ST parallel to the blade. The stock is held in the F&F jig and push into the blade using the ST.

"C" in the picture above illustrate short RF parallel to the blade and ST with 0.001-2" toe out. The the stock is held in the F&F jig and push into the blade using the ST. Just as Susumu stated, the second edge is ripped parallel to the first edge.

Since I don't have a short RF, I need my long RF to be parallel to the blade when it is in position as in "B". Besides, it is a perfectly good RF. It is a shame to use it only as a stop! There is no reason it can't be used like the RF of a NA cabinet saw.



I believe this topic was discussed at Felder forum before when someone had the same issue. There are a few experts who have extensive knowledge about how to adjust the slider, for example, David Best who wrote the Felder Survival Guide. You probably want to post the question there, I am sure you will get the correct answer.

James, which forum are you referring to? If it's the Yahoo's group forum, I have tried to sign up for two years. Never a reply from the admins. Or are you referring to this new one at http://www.hammerfelderowners.com (http://www.hammerfelderowners.com/?) ?


Hi Wakashita, your best friends are Felder representatives. Ask them to send calibration procedure or you can find one on Felder site - looks for "sliding table adjustment guide"
I would like to share, but can't upload pdf file, sorry.
I just finished same procedure for Felder machine - it s very tedious and time consuming. But I did it right on my last attempt and have perfect machine now.

Good luck, Ed.



Thanks Ed. I agree that adjusting this saw is tedious. My legs are sore! However, it is infinitely adjustable, so it seems.


Wakahisa, here is a link to an informative thread discussing slider operations and setup from 2013 http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198099-Observations-on-Euro-style-sliding-saws
I don't have Felder's exact numbers, but your Hammer could very well be within their tolerance margins.

John, thanks for the link. I remember reading that thread a while ago when I were shopping for the K3.

If anyone is interested, there is another thread at another site (http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Aligning_a_Sliding_Table_Saw_Carriage.html) with similar topics.

I think David is right. I might have over torqued the bolts and twisted the ST's support track. I'll have to be more gentle!

Additional question: what do you to lubricate the rolling balls track? A small amount of bearing grease?

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

Forget to mention - precise level, like machinist level is very helpful in sliding saw alignment process.
Ed.

[Jim Becker]

well first off u shouldn't be using the rip fence and the slider at the same time .
This is generally a true statement. Outside of when using a short fence as a stop (in front of the blade not at the blade) to have repeatable cut-offs when inappropriate to use a short miter fence, either for stock length or short cutoffs, the slider wagon should be locked when using the rip fence to actually rip material so it doesn't move. I personally only use the rip fence for narrow rips that wouldn't be safe to do on the wagon with a parallel ripping jig.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Wakashita-san,

This is very clear. OK, I agree that if ST, RF, and blade are all parallel, all procedures should work like a dream. All F&F procedures in the video should be precise.
Speaking for the short fence, I'm not completely sure that it is long enough to precisely register the long rip edge parallel to the blade/ST. It may, but not sure.

I believe the reason why manufacturers are not trying to achieve the complete parallels among the three (blade, ST, RF) is, it requires higher tolerance. If we shoot for average 0, the precision of +/- 0.001 would give 50% of the saws "runin" situations. If they shoot for 0.003 "runout", then +/- 0.001 would be perfectly reasonable. I guess the final 0.001 would require twice or three times more effort. It's just my theory.

Please let me know if you could achieve such a "all parallel" nirvana.

By the way, my ST moves with my pinky without much stress. I hope you could resolve the tightness issue.
I thought my Hammer ST was supremely smooth until my friend visited and said, "Felder X-roll doesn't make this noise.":)

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Forget to mention - precise level, like machinist level is very helpful in sliding saw alignment process.
Ed.

Yep, using a Starrett 380-36 straight edge here. Thank you very much for your email.


Hi Wakashita-san,

This is very clear. OK, I agree that if ST, RF, and blade are all parallel, all procedures should work like a dream. All F&F procedures in the video should be precise.
Speaking for the short fence, I'm not completely sure that it is long enough to precisely register the long rip edge parallel to the blade/ST. It may, but not sure.

I believe the reason why manufacturers are not trying to achieve the complete parallels among the three (blade, ST, RF) is, it requires higher tolerance. If we shoot for average 0, the precision of +/- 0.001 would give 50% of the saws "runin" situations. If they shoot for 0.003 "runout", then +/- 0.001 would be perfectly reasonable. I guess the final 0.001 would require twice or three times more effort. It's just my theory.

Please let me know if you could achieve such a "all parallel" nirvana.

By the way, my ST moves with my pinky without much stress. I hope you could resolve the tightness issue.
I thought my Hammer ST was supremely smooth until my friend visited and said, "Felder X-roll doesn't make this noise.":)

I don't have the short rip fence, so I have no idea if it will register parallel to the blade/ST like you stated. While we are talking RF, I would like to find an extruded aluminum that fits the K3's RF carrier and has T-slots to attach sacrificial fence and accessories to. Like anti-kickback device, etc.

I played with the Felder K 700 S at the show room. The X-roll table is smoother compared to the Hammer K3's. It was also more than twice the price! :eek: Plus, it needs 3-phase power.

In response to Jim and David, why not use the ST and RF together? Binding and kickback problems? I don't routinely do it, but for ripping thin stocks, I find it very easy with the Fritz and Franz jig. You set the RF to the desire width (say 1"), butt the wood against the RF, sandwich it in the F&F jig, make the cut. Rinse and repeat. So much easier and safer than with my old cabinet-style TS. My hands are never near the blade. I stand to the side of the saw, so if the stock shoots forward, it flies into the wall. It is for this particular operation that I want the parallel nirvana between RF, blade, and ST. :D

For ripping wider stock, a shop-made rip stop (like the one pictured on the huge Minimax TS that the Minimax rep posted) attach to the ST in conjunction with front and back clamps is the way to go.

There is always the option of calling the Felder technician for a service call. I am a cheapskate, so I don't want to pay for the crazy hourly rate + travel time rate. Besides, that's the easy way out and no fun! Hahaha!

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

I am talking about this (http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-98-6-6-Inch-Precision-Machinists/dp/B0002CSBNY/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451180445&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=machinistlevel)

Ed.

Forget to mention - precise level, like machinist level is very helpful in sliding saw alignment process.
Ed.

[James Zhu]

@Wakashita, yes, What I meant is Felder Owner Group on Yahoo. I will contact FOG admin ....

[James Zhu]

I played with the Felder K 700 S at the show room. The X-roll table is smoother compared to the Hammer K3's. It was also more than twice the price! :eek: Plus, it needs 3-phase power.


Hammer slider uses ball bearing, Felder slider uses X-Roll which is extremely smooth. Felder K700S has single phase motor as an option, so you can run k700S on single phase 30 amp circuit.

[James Zhu]

@Wakashita, yes, What I meant is Felder Owner Group on Yahoo. I will contact FOG admin ....

Wakashita, I sent a private message to you, please contact FOG admin directly, he will make sure your request gets approved.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

With help from you who posted, Felder's guide, and David Best's online documentation, I were able to get the 79" ST on the Hammer K3 Comfort to almost desired alignments.

First, the binding issue experience before is most likely due to twist introduced to the under carriage by my inexperience at adjusting this saw. After letting everything sits freely for a day and started over, I think it has mostly resolved. I will go through the alignment exercise again once I expand on my limited number of reference tools.

Susumu-san, it is possible to achieve absolute parallel nirvana between ST, blade, and RF. However, I am not sure if that is wise. So, for now, my RF has no toe-out or toe-in. It is 0.000" parallel against a 300mm blade. The ST has a 0.0015 toe out toward the back of the saw. I cut four panels for drawer bottom last night, using the RF as a stop. They are square as far as I can measure with my Empire combination square.

My ST is 0.002" higher than the cast iron table. Getting it to this setting took 5 attempts; four of which were performed prior to starting this thread. Referencing David Best's advise, the ST was first set to be coplanar with the cast iron table, around 0.005" higher at first. Once coplanar achieved, lowering the ST to 0.002" higher than the cast iron table through out its length was the fun, tedious part. I only have one straight edge (36") and a set of feeler gauge, so it went slow. Though, slow and methodical is necessary!

The Hammer K3 Comfort 79" ST under carriage is secured to the chassis with 6 bolts and nuts. The middle two need to be loosen and left alone until the very last. The rest is detailed in the pictures below. I only turned each nut 1/8 turn for each adjustment increment. There was a lot of re-positioning the straight edge. I mean A LOT! My thighs testify to this!

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Backlash was an issue at the end when all the nuts get their final torque. This required further checking and adjustments. I used two 17 mm wrenches to mitigate this problem.

I am glad I went through this exercise, instead of utilizing Felder tech service. I have a better understanding of my machine. I believe the next attempt will be easier and more fun.



Now, what is everyone using for lubricating the tracks that the carriage balls ride on?

[David T gray]

they dont need lube as far as i know using it would probably just gunk it up with dust and cause more problems.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

For future reference, I find WD-40, a bristle brush, and a rag work very well for cleaning and lubricating the bearings. The WD-40 was recommended to me by someone else.