E.C. Emmerich planes

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I wonder if anybody has any experience with these German planes ? I find them very appealing as they are made of wood, but Im unsure about the plane iron. They say its German vanadium-cromesteel, whatever that is ? Is it comparable to O1, or A2 ?

[Tom M King]

I have three of them. The irons are harder than O1, but not as hard as A2. You can get a really sharp edge on them. I have a scrub plane that gets used a lot, and a Primus Smoother, and Jointer that I have never used to amount to anything. The irons on the smoother and jointer have a strange mechanism that uses a die spring that is tensioned by a knob on the back that holds tension back on the cap. The iron is easily advanced and retracted. The only problem I had was when letting the iron get the least bit dull in the smoother, it would chatter worse than anything I've ever had in my hands. I might not have had enough tension on the die spring, but never spent much time fiddling with it. I'm so used to the old Stanleys and Records that those are the ones I reach for.

[Prashun Patel]

I cannot comment on the steel. But. I have two of these and they are my favorite planes. I like them so much i am considering a primus jointer .

the only downside is the removal of the blade on the adjuster models.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I cannot comment on the steel. But. I have two of these and they are my favorite planes. I like them so much i am considering a primus jointer .

the only downside is the removal of the blade on the adjuster models.

What do you mean exactly ? Is it difficult or ?

[Tom M King]

There is a metal rod with a "t" on it. The T holds pressure back on the cap, and the rod goes through the die spring, has threads on the ass end that the knob on the back tightens. To remove iron, take rear knob off, pull rod forward turning "T" ninety degrees to be able to take the iron/cap/adjuster assembly out. It might take ten or fifteen seconds longer than throwing the lever on an old Stanley. It is a little fiddly though, since there is a washer under the knob that usually falls out too.

[Jim Belair]

I think you're supposed to be able to just push on the rear knob to release the blade but I end up unscrewing it also. As Tom says, fiddly. The spring loaded blade securement is to reduce backlash IIRC.

[Trevor Goodwin]

I've got the short jointer. Didn't go for the primus mechanism because they are expensive and time consuming to remove the blade for sharpening. Pretty happy with the wedge model, but I actually find the plane a bit heavy.

[Jim Belair]

Another downside (besides the fiddly adjuster/ blade securement) is the extremely uncomfortable tote (on the jointer). Easy enough to fix with a rasp I suppose but off the shelf it is flat with sharp edges.

[ken hatch]

ECE also makes traditional wood planes in addition to the Primus line. I can't say anything about the Primus line because I've never used one but I have a half dozen of the traditional plane line, from the Scrub to the Try with several smoothers in between, and they are all very good planes.

[Bill McNiel]

I've had the the Primus Smoother and Jack along with the Scrub for over 40 years and love them. They were the first real bench planes in my shop and have remained favorites. I guess the "fiddly tee rod" never really bothered me because I didn't know better and just got OK with it.

[Tom M King]

327933327934Bill, you must have bought yours about the same time I got mine. Here's a recent picture of the scrub. That's not a shadow in front of the iron. It's wear. The mechanism never really bothered me either, but I think I didn't get good enough at sharpening when I first bought the planes, and after the chattering issue, they probably never were pulled out again.

[Joe Beaulieu]

I have the Primus smoother- at least that's what I think it is. It's the one with the weird knob on the back and the finger jointed sole made of "lignin vitae". It's a very nice plane, I use it for smoothing softer woods. I don't use it on oak or maple because I sharpen several times a session and getting the iron out of that plane is wonky. You have to unscrew that black knob in back. It is cumbersome imho, but it is a gorgeous plane otherwise. I'd grab one if I were you. If you are looking for a good wooden smoother, I would look into a good Japanese plane.
I love my Innomoto. Very nice plane - iron really holds an edge. The dai is easy to adjust. Hard to break in to unless you have local resources, but there is a real upside to eastern tools. My $.02

Joe

[Steve Rochon]

HI. I just acquired a Primus smoother on eBay, because I wanted something with an elevated cutting angle for gnarly grain. Can you direct me to any information about disassembling the plane for sharpening? It's very different than any plane I've used and I don't want to start dismantling something without some understanding of what all this is and how it works. Thanks for any help you can provide.

[Steve Rochon]

Sorry, I just found the post by Tom King, which was helpful. However, as someone who likes this particular plane, any insight you might have about the tool would be appreciated. Thanks and take care Prashun.

[Tom M King]

The tension on the knob needs to be just right. I don't know how to say what just right is. Too little, and the iron will chatter like crazy on any pass. Too tight, and it will chatter if you try to plane faster. It's sort of a balance between tension of that knob, and speed of pushing the plane.

I sold the Jointer, and sharpened the iron before I shipped it. I went ahead and sharpened the smoother too, and had it up for sale, until I tried it. I hadn't used these planes for probably 40 years. I guess my sharpening has gotten a lot better, because I never liked this plane as much as I do after sharpening the iron super sharp recently. No doubt, my planning ability has gotten better too.

If I was going to buy an ECE plane today, I'd get one without the adjuster. Just a wedge and iron is just fine.

[Steve Rochon]

I just acquired a E C Emmerich smoother; my first such plane that I hunted down for the 50 degree angle of attack. I've taken it apart and reassembled it, but I'm not sure of how the knob at the back and the spring tensioning knob work together. Do I tap the iron into place like other wooden planes, or do the two adjustments work together to get the proper depth and mouth opening? One adjustment seems to counter the other. Any insight will be appreciated. Thanks.

[Tom M King]

The adjuster knob (looks sort of like a Norris adjuster) controls the depth of cut. The knob on the back puts tension on the T-shaped rod that pulls back on the iron. There is a die spring inside that supplies the force used to seat the iron using that T pulling the iron back. The spring is supposed to give enough tension to hold the iron in place, but still allow easy adjustment of cutting depth. There is nothing that needs to be tapped on.

The adjuster knob on top pushes against a bend in the T- shaped tensioning rod. The bend needs to be down.

The plane has to be really, Really sharp to work well, but fortunately, the iron is a steel that takes a great edge.

It works well, when you have everything adjusted just right, and find the right plane speed for the wood you're working, but I don't think spring tension is the ideal way to clamp an iron down. It's a fun plane for some things, but it would be too frustrating to use one all day.

[Bill McNiel]

I just acquired a E C Emmerich smoother; my first such plane that I hunted down for the 50 degree angle of attack. I've taken it apart and reassembled it, but I'm not sure of how the knob at the back and the spring tensioning knob work together. Do I tap the iron into place like other wooden planes, or do the two adjustments work together to get the proper depth and mouth opening? One adjustment seems to counter the other. Any insight will be appreciated. Thanks.

Steve- go to the ECE site, if I remember correctly they have drawings and instructions there.

[John Kananis]

For everyone saying that removing the blade is 'wonky': Place the knob on your bench, press down and then reach in and remove the blade. Not 'wonky' at all. Admittedly, (at first) I removed the entire adjustment mechanism when I needed to sharpen, then one day (about three years after owning the plane) it dawned on me that you really don't need to do this. Awesome plane by the way.

[Patrick Chase]

I have three of them. The irons are harder than O1, but not as hard as A2. You can get a really sharp edge on them. I have a scrub plane that gets used a lot, and a Primus Smoother, and Jointer that I have never used to amount to anything. The irons on the smoother and jointer have a strange mechanism that uses a die spring that is tensioned by a knob on the back that holds tension back on the cap. The iron is easily advanced and retracted. The only problem I had was when letting the iron get the least bit dull in the smoother, it would chatter worse than anything I've ever had in my hands. I might not have had enough tension on the die spring, but never spent much time fiddling with it. I'm so used to the old Stanleys and Records that those are the ones I reach for.

The backlash-proof (that's what the spring is for) mechanism you describe is the main thing that distinguishes their "Primus" line from their ordinary bench planes. The ordinary ones are adjusted the old fashioned way, with a hammer. I'd go for the latter if I were the OP.

[Rob Luter]

I have a smoother (see below) The blade holds an edge just fine, but the adjustment method (plane hammer) is touchy and the mouth opening is rather large. You have to have it set just right to pull thin shavings.

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/images/535-0104%20lg.jpg

[Patrick Chase]

I have a smoother (see below) The blade holds an edge just fine, but the adjustment method (plane hammer) is touchy and the mouth opening is rather large. You have to have it set just right to pull thin shavings.

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/images/535-0104%20lg.jpg

That's the "non-Primus" kind that I was referring to a couple posts back. The ones Tom is describing have a much different mechanism (as in, they have one).

[Prashun Patel]

The couple that I have require that the rod be oriented with the painted side up. Not doing so will not allow the blade to descend below the mouth.

I like the jack more than the smoother. Both are light and very ergonomic.

[ken hatch]

I have several hammer set ECE planes, the cost/benefit ratio is pretty good.

ken

[Allan Speers]

I wonder if anybody has any experience with these German planes ? I find them very appealing as they are made of wood, but Im unsure about the plane iron. They say its German vanadium-cromesteel, whatever that is ? Is it comparable to O1, or A2 ?

I believe the steel is a type of stainless, ie high vandium or high chromium. It's a very nice compromise between durability & sharpness, but not the best on either end.

I'm a big fan, esp of the "primus" versions. These have the complex adjustment mechanisms. Adjustment is critical, and hard to do properly without instruction.
Here's some instruction:

======================

from: http://www.fine-tools.com/G301047.html


How to adjust:

Choose the desired cutting depth with a turn of the adjustment screw and your E.C.E. PRIMUS plane is set to go. There is no free wheeling of the screw. It's tight and sure, like rack and pinion steering on a sports car. You'll notice that the plane iron stays sharp a long time.


How it works:


At the back of the plane body, there is a knob. The knob is attached to a piece of steel that is in turn attached to the plane blade via the chipbreaker. The piece of steel is always in tension - through the use of a large spring just behind the knob - and is trying to pull the plane blade back against the blade-bed. However, since the blade-bed is at 50 degrees, the effect of this tension to to force the plane blade upwards away from the plane-base.


The depth-adjusting knob is attached to a threaded rod whose far end presses down onto the piece of steel under tension. There is enough vertical give in the assembly to allow this knob to raise and lower the blade. This assembly is always in tension, thus there can never be any backlash.


### After several turns of the adjusting knob, the tension in the piece of steel attached to the blade needs to be adjusted (via the back knob) so as to keep the system in equilibrium.
=============================


David Warren on adjusting the iron in a Primus plane:


To adjust a Primus cutter depth, bring the blade to above the sole (recessed) 3/16-inch and tighten the black tensioning knob. (Once a blade edge is down, even with the sole, it's harder to finger-tighten the spring tensioning knob sufficiently.)


Turn the depth adjustment screw clockwise to lower the blade until it's even with the sole. The blade assembly slides easily on steel buttons.


LATERAL ADJUSTMENT:

The Primus is specially engineered to hold the iron parallel in use. E.C.E. designed two features that combine to retain parallelism:


1: All Primus plane irons initially touch the lower left side of the mouth.
Look into the plane throat from the top. Note that the unadjusted blade rests left. The cause is the small .04-mm pin at the end of the tension rod is bowed slightly left. To further assure that the plane blade touches the lower left side, E.C.E. fashions Primus blade beds so they are between dead square and canted left one-half degree or so. These two design features link to cause the blade to jut out of the mouth on the left.


2: Check that the black knob is tight. Turn plane over and sight down the sole from the front. From this perspective, the blade protrudes on the right. Turn the chrome depth adjustment until the blade barely shows in the middle. When sighting down the sole, the right edge is high but not visible on the left.


3: Keeping the blade tightly bedded, turn plane upright and bring the blade parallel. Swing the regulator lever left so the upper part of the blade swings left causing cutting edge to swing right. This brings the edge parallel and buttresses the upper part of the regulator-bearing surface against the right throat wall. (If needed, tap blade a hair until it's parallel.)


A truss is formed: tensioning rod pin plus canted bed pull the cutter edge left while the regulator pushes the iron right. This truss prevents lateral movement. It assures an even chip.


4: After adjusting depth, close the mouth opening until it is just wide enough to clear the thickest shaving anticipated. Any larger mouth opening presents the real danger of the cutter prying up a tiny splinter and leaving a poor surface. That narrow band of the plane sole parallel to and just in front of the cutting edge compresses and holds the wood down, en‑mass, until the instant the cutter engages. It arrests any tendency of the iron to raise a splinter.


### Caution: Always adjust cutter depth before closing mouth opening.
If you reverse this, if you slide the mouth close, and then screw the blade down, the mouth may be too close. It may force the cutter edge into the trailing edge of the sliding mouth. It may splinter it. Easily fix that crack by epoxying back in place and re-sanding the sole flat.)




5: Take a pass or two on a flat piece of scrap. The chip reveals your success in tuning. (See Reading the Chip in InfoLog). Readjust depth until the shaving is nearly as wide as the blade, so it's sheered evenly across, so it’s translucent...

[Don Slaughter]

I have the jointer and it is a fine tool. I had to fettle it for a bit before I got it to work smoothly but never had a problem since. Blade holds an edge about as well as any stanley plane I have. Found it at swap meet for $100 many years ago.....already had a Stanley #8 and a Clifton #6 for jointing but fell in love with this one because it is so lite. Very easy to set the depth of cut and easy to use for hours.
good luck,

Don

[Patrick Chase]

I believe the steel is a type of stainless, ie high vandium or high chromium. It's a very nice compromise between durability & sharpness, but not the best on either end.


I have a toothing plane with a blade made of the same steel (branded "Ulmia" but identical to the ECEs and likely from the same factory) and I don't think it's stainless.

"High Chromium" is a very relative thing. True stainless steels like the 440 series or CTS-XHP (a PM stainless that some suspect may "go to 11") is up at 16+% Cr. Even D2, which isn't stainless, is 11%. With the exception of CTS-XHP those all have huge carbides and well-known problems with taking and holding edges as a consequence. The ECE blades are much better in that regard than any non-PM stainless, but I don't think they're PM.

I suspect instead that ECE is more like A2 - "high Cr" relative to O1/HCS, at ~5%.

[Rob Luter]

That's the "non-Primus" kind that I was referring to a couple posts back. The ones Tom is describing have a much different mechanism (as in, they have one).

Understood. I've seen the Primus versions and suspect they work much better. This one isn't so bad, but the mouth opening limits its functionality.