Lie Nielsen Honing Guide Question

[Paul Sidener]

For those of you with the guide, I have a question. I have a Veritas skewed rabbet. Will the skew jaws hold the Veritas iron? I am looking at getting a new honing guide, and trying to decide which guide to get. I like the side clamping of the Lie Nielsen. But I want one thet I can make work with all my chisels and plane irons. If the Lie Nielsen won't hold my skew blade, I will probably get the Veritas honing guide, even though it isn't side clamping.

[Derek Cohen]

Paul

Lie Nielsen make jaws for the guide for a 30 degree skew. The Veritas Skew Rabbet plane uses blades with a 30 degree skew. Sounds like a match.

Personally, I hollow grind mine, and freehand sharpen. Quicker than setting up a guide. Just another option (I do have the LN guide to use on BU planes blades).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

I have the LN honing guide and would say you are good to go with it if the jaws match your blade's skew angle, which they apparently do. I have owned both systems and like the LN much better. The build quality and simplicity are very impressive. The LV guide probably fits more tools if you buy all of the accessories they make, although their side clamping attachment was very disappointing to me because it allowed blades to slip to the point of being dangerous. Not everyone would agree with me, but I sold off my MkII kit and have not missed it yet.

[Kurt Cady]

Not to hijack the thread but I'm thinking we need a "what fits the LN guide" thread. Do Narex bench chisels? Narex mortise chisels? AI chisels? Marples? Hock blades? Veritas blades? Etc. You get the idea. Up/down to what size for what jaws? You name it, someone is bound to have it and the LN guide. Will let many know what to expect. Might save from buying extra jaws or counting on the guide at all

[Ralph Boumenot]

I have the LN guide and both the left and right skew jaws. I bought them because I have the LV right hand rabbet plane. I couldn't get the LV iron to fit in the LN skewed jaws.

[Patrick Chase]

I have the LN honing guide and would say you are good to go with it if the jaws match your blade's skew angle, which they apparently do. I have owned both systems and like the LN much better. The build quality and simplicity are very impressive. The LV guide probably fits more tools if you buy all of the accessories they make, although their side clamping attachment was very disappointing to me because it allowed blades to slip to the point of being dangerous. Not everyone would agree with me, but I sold off my MkII kit and have not missed it yet.

I've played with the L-N guide in their showroom. I talked my wife into a "scenic route" to the in-laws' house from a family vacation in Maine, and neglected to mention that the "scenery" was mostly iron and steel. It's a very nice guide. The overall gripe I have with it is that that's an awful lot to pay (when you consider the costs of all of the various jaws) for a souped-up Eclipse with a bunch of screw-in jaws that any competent machinist could whip up in negligible time.

The other thing that frankly offended my ex-mechanical-engineer sensibilities was the need for separate left-/right-facing jaw pairs for each angle. I can't see any legitimate engineering rationale for making the screw pattern asymmetric about the wheel rotation axis, and if they'd made those screws symmetric then jaws could be made reversible/invertible and only one set would be needed for each angle.

Even a blatant tool/stone/whatever whore like me has to draw the "insufficient value-for-money" line somewhere :-)

[Derek Cohen]

Patrick, you make a good point about reversing the skew jaws. I have little interest in this particular situation (since I hollow grind my skews and freehand on the hollow - much easier), but the curiosity in me asks whether the jaws be flipped over? Perhaps a champer needs to be drilled for the screws?

Ralph, why could the LV skew rabbet blade not fit - too wide?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, you make a good point about reversing the skew jaws. I have little interest in this particular situation (since I hollow grind my skews and freehand on the hollow - much easier), but the curiosity in me asks whether the jaws be flipped over? Perhaps a champer needs to be drilled for the screws?

Ralph, why could the LV skew rabbet blade not fit - too wide?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I do basically the same as you - I grind to a guide-line and then either freehand or use a top-clamping guide that allows arbitrary angles.

The problem is that the screws on each side are actually offset along the wheel rotation axis, so if you flip the jaws over the screw holes won't line up. That's the thing that offended my sensibilities. See the pictures here: https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/honing-guide-bladesstandard

EDIT: On a related note, if you have the blade ground to the angle you want (either because you did it yourself or because it came that way) then it's REALLY easy to get it registered in a top-clamping guide. The trick is to set the blade to the right extension and roughly the right angle, and then take it to a known-flat surface like a granite plate or piece of float glass. See if the guide "rocks" from side to side when you shift pressure from the roller to the blade edge. If it does, rotate the blade until it stops. Done.

If you're really OCD like me then use float glass and sight from underneath to see if both the length of the roller and the length of the blade edge are both in full contact :-)

[Derek Cohen]

Y'now, if one wants to save their bucks, simply make a skew blade guide for the LN out of hardwood (and seal it against water). Follow the LN design. Use the existing straight guide as a template for the holes. Should be easy to do.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Paul Sidener]

My main concern is with the shape of the iron and getting the right projection. The iron isn't straight on the sides. That is why I asked. The Lie Nielsen seems like the better guide. The price won't be that much different, when I buy the jaws I need. As compared to the deluxe set with the skew guide from Vertias.

[Patrick Chase]

My main concern is with the shape of the iron and getting the right projection. The iron isn't straight on the sides. That is why I asked. The Lie Nielsen seems like the better guide. The price won't be that much different, when I buy the jaws I need. As compared to the deluxe set with the skew guide from Vertias.

I have the Veritas Skew Guide, but I never use it and wouldn't buy it again. As noted above, setting skew angles in a top-clamping guide is utterly, mind-numbingly trivial. Both the Veritas guide and L-N's swappable jaws just add needless complexity and effort.

"Better guide" here depends on what you're trying to do. The L-N is an improved Eclipse-pattern guide, and like the Eclipse it's a side-clamp guide with a narrow wheel. IMO such guides are "better" if you want to camber a blade (where the narrow wheel helps) or if you want to set a tool at exactly 90 deg with an absolute minimum amount of effort (where side clamping helps). On the other hand side-clamp guides just get in your way when working skewed tools as discussed here - If you're having to do something as involved as swapping jaws every time you want to change angle then that means you're using the wrong tool and process for the job. That's what Derek and I have both been trying to tell you in more subtly-worded posts :-).

BTW I have both styles - Eclipse-style guides for honing highly cambered blades and top-clamp guides for skews. I use whichever is closer to hand for simple straight blades.

[Mike Brady]

What Ralph states above pretty much puts an end to this post, unless he is mistaken. I guess you LV skew plane owners get the LV honing guide, and live with it.

[Derek Cohen]

Paul, Patrick is correct. If you need to hone a blade that has a perfectly straight bevel, then a side-clamp guide is a good choice. However, when plane blades (not chisel blades) require skew angles, where there may be a deviation of 1 or 2 degrees, then these guides fail. I can manipulate the desired angle when freehanding. The alternative is a top-clamping guide, such as the Veritas. Now you do not need the skew angle setter. Just make up a stop jig and set it with that. A whole bunch easier.

Here's an example of a stop jig for a knife (for when I hollow grind the sides before freehand sharpening) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A2_zpsb7e652ab.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A1_zps3852c5b1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A3_zps939a08a9.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I have the LN guide and both the left and right skew jaws. I bought them because I have the LV right hand rabbet plane. I couldn't get the LV iron to fit in the LN skewed jaws.

What bevel angle were you using?

I have the Skew Rabbets, and the only reason they wouldn't fit a side-clamp guide is if bevel angle were high enough (and the blade extension short enough) that the wide part of the blade overlaps the jaws. Is that what happened to you?

I'm asking mostly out or curiosity - using a side-clamp guide on a blade that

[Patrick Chase]

Paul, Patrick is correct. If you need to hone a blade that has a perfectly straight bevel, then a side-clamp guide is a good choice. However, when plane blades (not chisel blades) require skew angles, where there may be a deviation of 1 or 2 degrees, then these guides fail. I can manipulate the desired angle when freehanding. The alternative is a top-clamping guide, such as the Veritas. Now you do not need the skew angle setter. Just make up a stop jig and set it with that. A whole bunch easier.

Here's an example of a stop jig for a knife (for when I hollow grind the sides before freehand sharpening) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A2_zpsb7e652ab.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A1_zps3852c5b1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A3_zps939a08a9.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ooh, clever jig. I like the way the flange on the back registers against the Tormek-style guide bar. I think I'm going to have to make one of those (I have a couple LV knives with similar blades)

[Paul Sidener]

Patrick & Derek, Thanks for the help. Here is the iron I am asking about. If I sharpen it at 25 degrees, I need 1 1/2 inch projection out of the jig. If the sides of the iron were straight, I wouldn't have asked. I think Ralph has the best answer, to my question. I think I will hold off on buying a new jig. Lie Nielsen has a hand tool event in 3 months. I think I will just bring the iron and give it a try. I am thinking that Derek has a possibly has a solution if it doesn't work. Make jaws out of hard wood, or take a file to a LN jaw and make it fit. The jaw would be for the one iron anyways, so it wouldn't be a big deal to modify it to make it work for me.

327923

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick & Derek, Thanks for the help. Here is the iron I am asking about. If I sharpen it at 25 degrees, I need 1 1/2 inch projection out of the jig. If the sides of the iron were straight, I wouldn't have asked. I think Ralph has the best answer, to my question. I think I will hold off on buying a new jig. Lie Nielsen has a hand tool event in 3 months. I think I will just bring the iron and give it a try. I am thinking that Derek has a possibly has a solution if it doesn't work. Make jaws out of hard wood, or take a file to a LN jaw and make it fit. The jaw would be for the one iron anyways, so it wouldn't be a big deal to modify it to make it work for me.

327923

Ah, I'd forgotten that those irons widen on both sides (and you'd think I'd know given that I have both LH+RH LV skew rabbets and actually use them a fair bit). The projection is measured perpendicular to the cutting edge (that's the entire point of skewing) and the blade is 1-5/8" wide, so from the picture you posted 1-1/2" projection should be right on the edge of workability. The way to check is to very carefully set a combination square along the cutting edge (preferably with a thin bit of plastic shim stock between them...), and measure the distance to the straight part of the blade along each side.

Out of curiosity have you tried honing it with a top-clamping guide? I can understand the reluctance to freehand - I was the same way for a long time, and I still prefer to use a guide as long as doing so doesn't disrupt my workflow. I've honed that exact blade in in Veritas mk 1 and 2 guides and freehand, and haven't had any trouble with any of the 3. I expect that any top-clamping guide would be just fine.

[Patrick Chase]

Ah, I'd forgotten that those irons widen on both sides (and you'd think I'd know given that I have both LV skew rabbets and actually use them a fair bit). The projection is measured perpendicular to the cutting edge (that's the entire point of skewing) and the blade is 1-5/8" wide, so from the picture you posted 1-1/2" projection should be right on the edge of workability.

Out of curiosity have you tried honing it with a top-clamping guide? I can understand the reluctance to freehand - I was the same way for a long time, and I still prefer to use a guide as long as doing so doesn't disrupt my workflow. I've honed that exact blade in in Veritas mk 1 and 2 guides and freehand, and haven't had any trouble with any of the 3. I expect that any top-clamping guide would be just fine.

One other thought, though I'm reluctant to post this: If you end up with the L-N guide and it doesn't quite work, you can always increase the extension for any given angle by shimming up the guide (either under the wheel or between the guide and blade, though in the latter case you might have to shim up the jaws as well).

[Derek Cohen]

Lee Valley recommend a bevel of 30 degrees, not 25 degrees.

A simple add-on for the LN guide may be made this way ..

1. Use a block of wood that is about 1/2" thick and the width of the jaws.

2. Lay the plane blade over it at the exact orientation that it will hone at. Score the sides of the chisel into the wood.

3. Mark a square line about 1/2" on each side of the blade position.

4. Saw to the blade lines, to a depth of about 1/4", and remove the waste.

5. Saw to the outside lines. Note that this recessed block of wood must fit inside the LN guide - I am offering measurements from my head. Check these yourself.

6. Add a 1/4" wide stop block (hangs over the guide) at the rear of the recessed block.

7. Remove 1/4" by sawing from the centre of the recessed block - this is to enable the new guide blocks to tighten on the blade.

An optional tweek is to add a slight angle (chamfer) to the inside of the jig faces to ensure that the blade is forced down and does not lift.

Done.

Regards from Perth

Derek