Advice of efficiently buying rough sawn hardwood

[Michael Yadfar]

When I took furniture making classes In high school, we pretty much used ugly lumber that was given for a good price. We would cut out the biggest sections possible of salvageable wood and go from there, and it was a good amount. When I had a project, I had a good selection of wood to choose from.

Now on my own as a hobbiest, I've built small things by just getting a few boards at a time. Now I'm ready to build a coffee table, and I want to be as efficent as possible. I don't have the time or storage to get a whole truck load of trashy lumber, and with the prices of good quality lumber, I don't want a whole lot of waste.

Hardwood lumber is a little hard for me to calculate because the lumber yard has random lengths and widths, so I can't count on finding a whole bunch of 4/4x6x8 pieces. So Im going into the lumber yard knowing the sizes of wood I need, but don't know what I'm going to get. That leaves me there on the spot, deciding whether I can efficiently use the materials. Then I may have waste to factor in, because FAS is 92% yield. Basically I don't want to end up with a bunch of 2 foot cut offs.

I haven't decided on the wood I'm going to use or exact dimensions, but I'm looking at:
4 3"x3"x24" pieces
5-6 1"x6"x60'" pieces
2 1"x8"x60" pieces
2 1"x8"x30" pieces
2 1"x6"x36" pieces

[Jamie Buxton]

I start planning a shopping trip with a parts list like that. I generally convert it to square feet of each thickness of lumber -- so I know I need say ten sq ft of 5/4, and five sq ft of 8/4. For big chunks like those leg blanks, I just carry them on my shopping list like that. At the yard, I examine boards for defects, and for beauty. I may mentally lay out challenging layouts -- to try to avoid your bunch of two foot cut-offs. I always buy more lumber than I'm going to need. I may find defects at home I didn't notice at the yard. I may make mistakes when I cut wood. I'd rather have some leftover than need to make the trip back to the yard for one more darn board.

[Jim Becker]

Your parts list will help for sure, but also try to understand how many board feet you need for your project and multiple by at least 1.5 (or more for some species like walnut) to insure you bring home enough to do the job. Work hard to buy lumber that's similar in color and grain pattern...easy for some species; hard for others like cherry. If the lumber is truly rough, bring a small block plane with you and ask if you can take a shaving on the edge or near the ends of the boards you are considering so you can ascertain the color better. One back at your shop, breaking your boards down prior to milling is a matter of measuring rough for components and using some chalk to work it out. Frankly, I like to skim the surface of boards on my jointer/planer initially to really see where things are before selecting what gets used and how...again, color and grain match is important.

And when you find a good price for a species you like...over buy. It doesn't go bad in the rack and you have material for future projects.

[Matt Day]

If you try to be too efficient at the yard, you risk becoming very inefficient when you have to drive back to the yard for one more board because:
1) The boards didn't yield what you planned after milling
2) You made a mistake (cut too short, messed up a joint, etc)
3) You were trying to be too efficient

Buy more than you need. You're at the mercy of the yard for what lengths and widths are available.

I use sketchup I for my projects so I'll bring a dimensioned view of each component and figure out how much I need for each component. Bringing some chalk might be a good idea so you can label each piece and keep track of what's what.

You'll need to do some figuring at the yard as far as how many pieces you can get out of each board and such. That's inevitable. And because you will have to do this figuring, but more than you think you'll need.

Good luck! I love the candy store!

[Jamie Buxton]

Going to the lumberyard with a shopping list expressed in board feet is not great. Say you're buying 5/4 lumber. You have to be measuring the square footage of a board, and multiplying by 1 1/4 in your head to see if it matches what your shopping list says. If instead your shopping list is expressed in square feet of 5/4, or whatever, you get to directly measure the board and see if it fits your need. The lumberyard does care about board feet, because that's how they compute the price. But in terms of buying the lumber, square feet is more useful.

[Michael Yadfar]

Thanks for the tips so far. I actually have to calculate the board feet myself to determine what kind of wood to use. I really want to go mostly black walnut with some maple mixed in, but last time I got black walnut it was $8.72 a board foot I believe. I may have to either mix in more maple or go with oak. However though, I guess I can't really go wrong with too much wood. I don't have the perfect storage space, but I have almost unlimited room in my basement and I keep it stacked tight by the dehumidifer. My shop is kept to a steady environment year round, but I can barely store my tools lol

[Matthew Hills]

Pay attention to what you need to optimize for appearance, too.
E.g., you may want a specific section of a board for its appearance in the top, rather than cutting it to optimize usable lumber per the project bf calculations or you may want rails/stiles to have straight grain.

I'm happiest when I have some extra material... and any good quality lumber will eventually find a use.

Matt

[Dan Hahr]

If you simply buy by the bd foot, you may be short when you finally lay out your pieces. Buy a board with specific cuts to be made. For example if you need four 4" by 4' boards, an 8" by 8' board is probably going to be too small. Buy the longest, widest lumber you can find as long as it is usable. Buy plenty more than you need now. You can follow me a use for it later.

Da

[glenn bradley]

Pay attention to what you need to optimize for appearance, too.
E.g., you may want a specific section of a board for its appearance in the top, rather than cutting it to optimize usable lumber per the project bf calculations or you may want rails/stiles to have straight grain.

I'm happiest when I have some extra material... and any good quality lumber will eventually find a use.

Matt

This exactly. I do not just use whatever the board happens to be. I generally make boards from larger pieces of material to get the figure I am after. If you are very selective at the yard you can keep this down around 20% waste in my experience.

327834 . 327833 . 327824

[Keith Hankins]

ok, all I can do is pass along how I've developed my way over 30 years or so. I use to only get wood per project and only what I needed. It was expensive and IMO wrong. Now I save my money and tend to look for bulk buy deals. It will be much more affordable (overall) and you get some gems in the pile. I found a 500bf deal on craig's list for 3$/bf for cherry. I took a look at the pile and took it. Had some wide boards flat sawn that I knew I could rip both sides off that would be quartersawn. Great for my rail and stiles.

I look for deals all the time! some times I take the deal even though I know I will not need it imediately. As to those cut offs. I love my cut off pile! I don't know how many times I need that piece for something somewhere inside a piece or a rial and go pile diving. I rarely waste anything If it's 2" wide or better it gets leaned against the wall and will be found sooner or later. I even saved a 2' piece of 12/4" stock and ripped it into 1x pieces and used them for rails in a cabinet piece.

So, if you have any space at all start building your supply, go in with partners in the area and do a bulk buy to get your cost down. Me and a guy from work are going to split a 1000bf load and they guy is even throwing in delivery due to the load size.

Thats just me, but I've found thats the most economical way. Good luck!

[Mike Cutler]

Michael

I have found that for me it's just a lot better having an inventory of wood on hand. It drives me crazy trying to find exactly the right piece of wood when I need it.
There are always deals on wood, you just have to be ready when they come up. Build an inventory of woods you like to work with, and sometimes on deals just too good to pass up, and you'll be happy that you did.

There will always be waste. Try as hard as you can too minimize it, but just know that it's part of the game. What may be "shorts" to you, could be exactly the size someone else likes to use.

[Chuck Nickerson]

To amplify what a few people said, your piece list should note what each piece is for. Some pieces need show grain while leg pieces often work best with rift grain.

Some website somewhere has pictures of two pieces of similar furniture; one where grain was considered in construction, the other less so.
Those photos really changed my attitude about what I optimize when selecting wood.

[Michael Yadfar]

To amplify what a few people said, your piece list should note what each piece is for. Some pieces need show grain while leg pieces often work best with rift grain.

Some website somewhere has pictures of two pieces of similar furniture; one where grain was considered in construction, the other less so.
Those photos really changed my attitude about what I optimize when selecting wood.

Thanks for the heads up, not just from Chuck, but everyone. I never even considered grain direction, but it's a pretty big deal. If I'm going to use mostly black walnut, I have to make this table look good. The only issue is when I was at the lumber yard the first couple of times, I would tell the worker what I needed, he would go up and look for the board, then yell down what they had. Maybe if I tell them I'm a serious buyer, they will let me go up and find what I need myself

[Michael Yadfar]

Michael

What may be "shorts" to you, could be exactly the size someone else likes to use.

You're exactly right with that. In my woodshop class in high school, we literally had almost no solid waste, maybe just a box full of wood that's literally too small to even make a door stop, and my teacher took it home for kindling. The sawdust was even used for compost. At the end of the one year, we actually focused on finding ways to reuse all the "waste" material. One project was using the thin slivers to make a whole bunch of cutting boards. Another which was one of my favorites was making discs out of all the odds and ends pieces of plywood, gluing them together, then making lamps on the lathe which turned out really cool.

The reason I'm looking to be efficent though is cost. While I can use a lot of the odds and ends, I don't want to pay for the least possible.

[Steve Peterson]

I usually buy around 50% more wood than I need for a specific project. I will hand pick one or two "show" pieces and the rest can be less specific. It is nice to not be stressed about making a mistake and being one piece short.

Over time, I will eventually use up all of the leftovers.

Steve

[Shawn Pixley]

I do a rough cut plan for the conponents so that I can be smart at the lumber yard. (X inches 4/4x8", Y inches of 4/4x6", & Z inches of 12/4x3") I add 20% or one extra board for waste / mistakes. I pick lumber for show grain and other appropriate grain for the components (rift for legs, etc...). I never calculate board feet, nor do I order lumber that way. My lumber yard lets me pick through and I try to be a good citizen by leaving it neater than I found it (they run a very neat lumber yard). I spend a fair amount of time examining the wood for grain, color, straighness, twist, etc...

[David Helm]

I don't usually buy for a specific project. I am constantly looking for wood and buy whenever I find something I like. I tend to have quite a bit on hand so when I have a specific project I usually have what I need on hand.

[Scott T Smith]

In my opinion, you are much better to purchase lumber with the project in mind, and select boards based upon where you plan to use them in the project as well as where you plan to join them to other boards.

An extra hour or two selecting lumber will pay significant dividends in the ultimate artistry and presentation of your finished piece.

[Wade Lippman]

Buy substantially more wood than you need. Having a greater choice will dramatically cut waste. Having wood left over should not be a problem.

You might consider using something cheaper than walnut for your first project. Better to screw up on red oak than walnut.

[Michael Yadfar]

You might consider using something cheaper than walnut for your first project. Better to screw up on red oak than walnut.

I was sort of thinking the same thing... It's not my first project, but it's my first in awhile, and first on my own in this nature. One thing I know for sure either way is I'm going to buy 2x4s to practice the joints I will use and to test the equipment

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

but last time I got black walnut it was $8.72 a board foot I believe.

Does anyone else find this price to be really high? I would think that in PA, you should be able to find walnut for a much better price?

I can get 4/4 for $6.40 in 100 bd ft. quantities.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If cost is an issue, consider another wood, or combining woods to keep the cost down. If you like Walnut, you can use it to highlight features, as opposed to the main wood. One of my early projects was a little table for my wife. I made it of white oak (similar grain to walnut, works similarly as well, but is usually much cheaper), and used walnut for a simple band around the edges.

I buy with a specific project in mind, but I also agree with keeping an eye out for good deals. Years ago at a Lie Nielsen event I picked up about 8 boards of random width black walnut for about $100. Any one of those boards would have been $50 or more at my regular lumber yard.

327867

[Michael Yadfar]

Considering the potential of getting large bulk, I guess I can buy NO 1 common rather than FAS to save money

[Michael Yadfar]

If cost is an issue, consider another wood, or combining woods to keep the cost down. If you like Walnut, you can use it to highlight features, as opposed to the main wood. One of my early projects was a little table for my wife. I made it of white oak (similar grain to walnut, works similarly as well, but is usually much cheaper), and used walnut for a simple band around the edges.

I buy with a specific project in mind, but I also agree with keeping an eye out for good deals. Years ago at a Lie Nielsen event I picked up about 8 boards of random width black walnut for about $100. Any one of those boards would have been $50 or more at my regular lumber yard.

327867

Using two different types of wood was the idea that I had in mind. built a box not too long ago using black walnut and oak.
327894

For my table, I had something similar to this in mind:
327895

I am just sort of debating what combination I'm going to use, which is either going to be maple/black walnut, or oak/black walnut. A lot of google images seem to show maple being used with black walnut, so that's what I wanted to go with, but I'm also reading a lot of stuff about soft maple being as soft as pine, and hard maple being too hard to work with so I'm not certain what I want to do yet.

[Jim Becker]

Black walnut is one of those "special case" woods where you have to shop very carefully...color and grain variability can really mess up a project look if you buy by cut list quantity, rather than choose boards that are going to work for your project. You really can buy #1 common for some components where shorter and not so wide is ok...as long as the color and grain match the FAS stock that goes into larger components. Whether or not the walnut has been steamed or not will also affect the look, primarily with color. They steam to darken the sap wood for greater yield, but that can compromise the rich color thats present in non-steamed walnut. ( Ipersonally prefer air-dryed, non-steamed walnut)

Maple also has variations; soft maple for color and figure and hard maple primarily with figure/grain. Be sure to choose what's going to be pleasing upon completion of your project.

You are only a short drive from several really good lumber suppliers, like Hearne in Oxford and Groff & Groff nearby. I've not been to the latter, but the former is my "candy store" when I want the really nice stuff. Try to find some of the smaller, "one guy" shops/sawyers, too...you can often get nice prices, especially on local species.

[Michael Yadfar]

You are only a short drive from several really good lumber suppliers, like Hearne in Oxford and Groff & Groff nearby. I've not been to the latter, but the former is my "candy store" when I want the really nice stuff. Try to find some of the smaller, "one guy" shops/sawyers, too...you can often get nice prices, especially on local species.

The two closest to me are Taque Lumber and Delaware County Supply. Delaware County Supply is the cheaper of the two, so I usually go there. However, theyre a pretty big place in a popular location, and specialize in framing lumber too, so maybe I should check some other places out. There's one small sawmill nearby that I belive is called Spacht, I was thinking of checking him out. I may also look into the places you recommended, I've actually been using Hearnes website for pricing reference but never realized it's so close

[Cody Colston]

How you select lumber to buy, both quality and quantity, will be a function of how you work. You can calculate the bf needed, add 20% excess and buy that amount. Of course, you will then be pretty much limited in the ability to choose wood that compliments the effect you want to achieve in the completed project. Fancy wood, solid joinery and proven methods do not necessarily make fine woodworking. It's how and where the wood is used that dictates the final outcome.

Do you want straight grain on all four sides of a leg? Then use rift-sawn stock.
Do you want the top to look like one single board? Then select pieces that are grain matched, at least as closely as possible from a random stack. Flitch cut lumber is best since it all comes from the same tree and is stacked in the order it is sawn.
Do you want the aprons to convey a look of softness or lift? Then select pieces with curved grain and orient them to achieve that look.

In short, I guess you should buy as much wood for a project as is practical and select what goes best with your idea and the look you want to achieve. As has already been said, any extra will not spoil on the rack and you will eventually use it.

[Michael Yadfar]

I may actually look further into buying wood from local sawmills instead of the lumber yard. Upon doing some searching, there's a couple local small sawmills that sell kiln dried lumber. I was reading reviews on one and people were saying the sawmill owner actually helps you out in selecting the wood you need. I'm not sure how the pricing works though, because both are "on the spot" pricing, and "reasonable". I would assume they would be at least the same if not cheaper considering there's no middle man, and I think I might enjoy the personal service

[Jim Becker]

Most "lumber yards" (those that cater primarily to the building trade) are not going to have much selection and will often have much higher prices, too. Take a field trip to Hearne when you have a copious free moment...but be careful because your wallet is going to be much lighter really fast! LOL The moral to the story is that material for furniture and cabinetry is most often best sourced from folks who specialize in that kind of material...better stuff, better selection and generally better prices.

[Jim German]

Swing over to Hearne Hardwood, They're the best place to buy hardwood in the area.

[Jim Dwight]

I have consistently found smaller operations. In Pittsburgh, there is a nice place on the east side of town that sells by the board. They have lots of variety but the price is fairly high per board foot. I lived on the west and didn't enjoy the drive over either. I found a sawmill closer to me that was much less expensive. You might have to wait when you got there is they were busy but they had good wood at a very fair price. But only domestic hardwoods and they could be out of what I wanted too. But still it was my first choice.

In SC, I am lucky to be able to join the NC woodworker website (you have to live in SC or an adjacent state) where there are several smaller (and larger) sawmills. I've bought from them and also individuals who had wood they wanted to get rid of. There is a local guy too who's pricing is pretty decent but he sorts out the figured material and charges more and also planes everything and I prefer to do the planning myself. NC has extensive hardwood forests so it is a good state to live next to.

[Michael Yadfar]

I probably will check it out regardless, looks like a cool place, but what's specifically special about Hearnes? Is it high quality stuff? Good selection? Good service? I just haven't been to any yet besides the one, so I don't really have the ups/downs figured out yet

[Steve Schoene]

Last time I was to Groff & Groff I was able to buy most of a flitch of Walnut, cut in 5/4 thickness and almost 12 feet long. The heartwood was a minimum of 14" wide and went up to 18". The ability to match grain and color is fabulous. It can be a big investment, but really helps end up with superior results.

[Michael Yadfar]

I went to Hearnes hardwood and got the lumber I needed, and it worked out pretty well. The plan I designed used mostly 6 inch wide pieces, and luckily that's the most common width Hearnes has. Maple was easy, all the boards are pretty much 100% useable with no nots. Walnut was a bit tougher because a lot of the stuff on top had a lot of sapwood, or was bowed/twisted. My pieces are beautiful but with a few knots. I brought my tape measure and actually measured out all the lengths I needed, even excluding the knot parts to determine what I needed. I also kept grain pattern in mind, and picked all the boards that I though matched best. The 12/4 walnut piece was half the money I spent alone, but the piece I got I believe is rift sawn

[Jim Becker]

Hearne is a virtual "candy store" when it comes to lumber...as I'm sure you noticed. :) You are indeed fortunate to live so close...I have to drive an hour and a quarter or more, depending on traffic, to get there when I need something "special".