RO Sander dust pickup.

[Martin Wasner]

Does anyone have their orbital sander hose plugged into regular dust collection? Does it provide enough suction? A vacuum doesn't have huge cfm numbers, but the suction is pretty great.

The new shop will have three benches in it instead of running pipe for dust collection to each I was thinking about buying a little 650cfm dust collector and building it into the bench with a small cyclone like Oneida's super dust deputy. That should be adequate for the chop box, but I don't have a clue if it will draw enough to work with the orbital. It also makes zero sense having a 20hp dust collector running when somebody is just working on a bench making a handful of cuts during cabinet assembly. I figure it's almost a wash with the cost of the pipe, and a no brainer when not running the main collector is an option. Also, a good vacuum will run $600 for just sucking up stuff on the sander.

Thoughts?

[Martin Wasner]

I'm also easing some load on the main dust collector which is barely adequate

[Ellen Benkin]

I have used a dewalt ros connected to a ridgid shop vac using the hose and connectors from Rockler. I found it very clunky until I also bought the Rockler device that holds the hose up so it doesn't drag. The shop vac had plenty of power to collect the dust from the sander. I never tried to connect the miter saw to the shop vac and I would be interested in it if others have tried it. Dust collection on most miter saws is almost zero in my opinion.

[Prashun Patel]

Ihave this set up. Exactly: dust deputy plus ridgid shop vac. I use it for my. Ros. It works well.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm looking at something like this (http://m.grainger.com/product/3AA30?gclid=CLK-x8fw8MkCFQanaQodnH8DNA&cm_mmc=PPC:GOOGLEPLAA-_-Machining-_-Finishing%20Supplies-_-3AA30&AL!2966!3!50916765957!!!g!71843983879!&ef_id=VnlSgwAAAF@-2sa9:20151223015652:s). Not a regular shop vac type.

I'm plenty happy with a single 4" pipe running to the one bench right now, but I have pretty realistic expectations of what is expected on a chop box. I think that little Dayton unit or something similar would be adequate cfm for the chop box, I'm not for if there's enough vacuum to clear an orbital effectively or not.

[Lee Schierer]

I connect my Porter Cable ROS to my DC system with a length of 1-1/2" hose connected to a 2" hose. Since the PC ROS was originally equipped with it's own dust collector it has an internal fan that suck up the sawdust and blows it into the hoses. I get very little dust left on the surface of what I'm sanding.

[Denis Kenzior]

Martin,

I doubt this will work acceptably. DC systems are meant to move air through large diameter pipes. That's how they get those large cfm numbers. Capacity grows exponentially with diameter of the port. Most sanders have a 1" diameter port. Shop-Vacs are the opposite, they're meant to suck hard through a small port. I'd use a quiet shop-vac for the ROS.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin,

I doubt this will work acceptably. DC systems are meant to move air through large diameter pipes. That's how they get those large cfm numbers. Capacity grows exponentially with diameter of the port. Most sanders have a 1" diameter port. Shop-Vacs are the opposite, they're meant to suck hard through a small port. I'd use a quiet shop-vac for the ROS.


That's kinda what I was concerned with . Not overly excited about the idea of dropping ~ $1800 on vacuums and still not solving the load on the main dust collector issue. Part of me says it won't work, part of me says a sander doesn't need to move much air to adequately evacuate the tiny amount of dust they create.

I'm tempted to buy one and try it since I'm sure it could be used somewhere else for temporary setups or whatever. Might even be handy if setup on a jobsite for long periods.

[James Zhu]

Festool Mini dust extractor is $475, Midi with 50% more bag capacity is $525. Its HEPA filter removes 99.97% of particulates down to 0.3 microns, much better than the $300 portable dust collector you are looking at.

If you decide to buy Festool or Mirka sander in the future, you can just connect the sander to the Mini/Midi dust extractor and have virtually dust free sanding.

[Martin Wasner]

I think it'll work. The mirka vacuum pulls 7.5", the Penn state model claims 8.5". The miter saw will have to be gated, but that's no big deal.

I'm ruling out the vacuum. Too narrow of use, not enough available space. .3 micron is great, but excessive in my mind. Also easily achievable with a cartridge filter on the other unit. My down draft table filters down to .5 micron, which is more than adequate.

[Terry Hatfield]

That's kinda what I was concerned with . Not overly excited about the idea of dropping ~ $1800 on vacuums and still not solving the load on the main dust collector issue. Part of me says it won't work, part of me says a sander doesn't need to move much air to adequately evacuate the tiny amount of dust they create.

I'm tempted to buy one and try it since I'm sure it could be used somewhere else for temporary setups or whatever. Might even be handy if setup on a jobsite for long periods.

The DC will likely do a poor job with the sander or any other tool with a small port. I keep a small shop vac with a HEPA filter just for tools with small ports.

[John Lankers]

I use a dust deputy on the shop vac with HEPA filter on my Mirka Ceros ROS.
I did try a 1 1/2 hp dust collector once, it doesn't work. By the time the hose is reduced to the port size of the ROS the suction is gone.

[mreza Salav]

DC has much larger CFM but works at much smaller static pressure (typically under 10"). A good shop-vac has much smaller CFM but works at much higher static pressure (like over 80" or 90").
DC and a good dust-extractor are different animals and unfortunately neither will replace the other.

[Martin Wasner]

A good shop-vac has much smaller CFM but works at much higher static pressure (like over 80" or 90").



I must've done the conversion wrong from millibars to in/hg. Poop.

[Darcy Forman]

I connect my Mirka to my Oneida dust collection system. I have a festool hose run off the end of a 1 1/2 vacume hose. This is all I have ever used and if works perfectly. While I am sanding I leave another six inch dust gate on the system open.

[Dan Friedrichs]

That's kinda what I was concerned with . Not overly excited about the idea of dropping ~ $1800 on vacuums and still not solving the load on the main dust collector issue.

What "load" are you referring to? If you were to hook a 1.25" hose from a ROS to your 20HP dust collector, you won't be adding much "load" - the CFM that it can draw through that small of a tube is very low.

Secondly, you mentioned earlier that you were concerned about running your 20HP collector if only sanders (etc) were being used. Keep in mind that a "20HP" motor only uses that much power when presented with such a load. If you have all the blast gates closed (and relatively air-tight ducting), you will be drawing hardly any power at all (the motor only needs to overcome frictional losses, which are likely not much different if it were a 1HP motor or a 20HP motor)

It sounds like this is a production shop? Personally, I'd rig a few cheap shop vacs in parallel and blow their exhaust directly outside (or into a large bag). Set up a separate ducted system for this high-static-pressure, low-CFM system, using ~2" PVC pipe. Since the system moves very little air, you needn't worry about HVAC losses.

That said, it seems like it might be prudent to consult a professional (engineer) to design some of the details of this system.

[mreza Salav]

I must've done the conversion wrong from millibars to in/hg. Poop.

e.g. Festool MIDI has 96" s.p.

http://www.festoolcanada.com/power-tools/HEPA-dust-extractors/ct-midi-hepa-dust-extractor-584165

[Justin Ludwig]

I tried it, Martin, with a 1hp Grizzly DC that's rated for 537 CFM. It sucked, or rather didn't. I have a 5gal bucket with a screw on lid, a dust deputy I made a bracket for and screwed/silicone to the lid, attached to a 4.5 hp shop vac with a Festool 150/5 sander. Works great. Light and portable. Super easy to clean.

[glenn bradley]

Ihave this set up. Exactly: dust deputy plus ridgid shop vac. I use it for my. Ros. It works well.

Ditto. The Shop Vac is superior for small powered tools IME. Choking the DC down (like the over arm on the Saw Stop tablesaw) yields pretty weak performance. I run 2 smaller DC's (1HP and 2HP) and 2 Vacs even though my shop is only 20 x 30 feet. I would rather have one large DC but, noise, duct runs and other factors just happened to lead me here.

[Dave Arnett]

I have a Fein Turbo 1 (with the hepa filter) dedicated to my ros. Mine is similar to this one...http://feintools-online.com/92027236090-fein-turbo-i-dust-extractor.html. They've changed the shape since I bought mine, but I'm pretty sure it's the same thing.

I can't brag on it enough...auto-start...67db...almost nothing gets through it.

[Robert Delhommer Sr]

I use my Dewalt ROS with a 1Hp HF DC and a Thien style separator and that combo works great.

[George Bokros]

Dust collection from the ROS,

The pickup of the dust from the sanded surface, is it more a function of the sander or the vac connected to the sander? If I run my hand over the sanded surface I still pick up dust.

I have used both my JDS collector and my current shop vac and it does not seem to make a difference in the dust left on the surface. I want to upgrade my dust collection when sanding but will not buy another sander to do so. If I upgrade my vac to the Fein Dave Arnett cites will it reduce the amount of dust left on the surface? I know it will do a better job is reducing the dust in the air.

I use my JDS with my drum sander and it does a very good job of keeping the dust out of the air and a reasonable job is removing the dust from the sanded surface.

Thanks

[Tom Deutsch]

I use a sanding project table that has a pegboard top and 2 large pleated filters inside with basically a furnace blower sitting inside the cabinet. Air exits a vent on the side of the contraption. I have it on wheels and it's my go to for all my projects whether I have the filter running or not. Super handy and effective for sanding. Buy expensive filters, if that's your emphasis, and make your workshop like a circuit board production facility. I also make circular saw cuts over it, since that's one of the "other" big dust makers. I just can't see messing around with a bunch of hoses, adapters, dollars, etc and having a DC robot hanging around. With all the DC threads on here, I bet the air in most of the shops has 10x less airborne dust than the average non-rainy day outdoors. LOL. I'm not sure why these tables aren't more popular (at least among the more reckless, or low-maintenance-inclined among us). http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2009/04/10-downdraft-table-plans-and-build-notes-for-wood-shops

[Keith Outten]

For short sanding jobs I have a cheap shop vac that I use. Shop Vacs are a fire risk when they are used for very long periods of time, in the CNC Router world there have been a number of people who have shared pictures of their shop vacs burned/melted beyond recognition.

I have a 4" pipe cap that has a 2.5" connector that I slip in the end of my DC pipe when I expect to be sanding for very long periods for sheets, long or odd size jobs. As noted before I usually open one of the other 4" valves at the same time, this improves performance dramatically.

I built one of the sanding tables for the sign shop at CNU. It was very small, sized to fit the 6" by 8" door signs that we made daily. In my shop I ordered one of the sanding tables from Grizzly, hook up the 4" DC hose and I can run all day without a problem BUT I exhaust directly to the outside and don't use filters or bags.

[Greg R Bradley]

Dust collection from the ROS,

The pickup of the dust from the sanded surface, is it more a function of the sander or the vac connected to the sander? If I run my hand over the sanded surface I still pick up dust.

I have used both my JDS collector and my current shop vac and it does not seem to make a difference in the dust left on the surface. I want to upgrade my dust collection when sanding but will not buy another sander to do so. If I upgrade my vac to the Fein Dave Arnett cites will it reduce the amount of dust left on the surface? I know it will do a better job is reducing the dust in the air.

I use my JDS with my drum sander and it does a very good job of keeping the dust out of the air and a reasonable job is removing the dust from the sanded surface.

Thanks
It is a function of both. To make it optimum, requires sanding discs with the holes in the right place and sometime adjusting the power of the suction.

As much as I like the Fein vacs, Dave made an assumption that the new ones are just a different shape and that is not true. My local Fein dealer stopped carrying them. The new ones adjust suction by an adjustable vacuum leak. You open a leak if you want less suction at the tool. Good thing I have 3 older Feins already as I won't be buying one of the "new" ones.

There were a few sanders that had built in suction and work surprisingly well with an attached bag. Those should work well hooked up to a DC as the sander is already doing some of the work.

A Mirka or Festool RO hooked up to a vac that is adjusted properly mostly gives you a dust free surface when you are done on flat surfaces. Lots of other brands going the same direction but with varying success. Makita had an almost dust free half sheet sander almost 25 years ago.

[Martin Wasner]

This was supposed to be posted yesterday morning, but apparently I walked away without doing so.




What "load" are you referring to? If you were to hook a 1.25" hose from a ROS to your 20HP dust collector, you won't be adding much "load" - the CFM that it can draw through that small of a tube is very low.

Secondly, you mentioned earlier that you were concerned about running your 20HP collector if only sanders (etc) were being used. Keep in mind that a "20HP" motor only uses that much power when presented with such a load. If you have all the blast gates closed (and relatively air-tight ducting), you will be drawing hardly any power at all (the motor only needs to overcome frictional losses, which are likely not much different if it were a 1HP motor or a 20HP motor)

It sounds like this is a production shop? Personally, I'd rig a few cheap shop vacs in parallel and blow their exhaust directly outside (or into a large bag). Set up a separate ducted system for this high-static-pressure, low-CFM system, using ~2" PVC pipe. Since the system moves very little air, you needn't worry about HVAC losses.

That said, it seems like it might be prudent to consult a professional (engineer) to design some of the details of this system.


Capacity might be a better word? The benches don't produce much in the way of dust or chips in any real volume, but each will have a 4" port for dust pickup at the saw, and possibly a port for the sander hose. That's roughly 1200cfm between the three and a pretty big chunk of my capacity which is only something like 6500 cfm. By the time it gets split to everything and the massive amount of pipe it takes, anything I can recoup is a win. The assembly benches are also the absolute furthest from the baghouse. The widebelt alone is burning up 2400 cfm. The cnc I'm looking at putting in the new shop will need probably around 1600cfm. With just those two tools I'm at 60% of my capacity. Nevermind the zillion other tools Granted, it takes three guys to run those two tools and everything will be gated, but it doesn't leave much for the rest of the shop, or adding another person(s). Plus all the line loss and leaks that come no matter what when you've got a few hundred feet of pipe hanging on the ceiling.

Yes. Production shop. Currently two guys in 2500 sq/ft. Unless something goes horribly crabbed, next spring I'm putting up a new building. The current plane is a bit less than 9000 sq/ft, and adding at least one more body. I was working 80 hour weeks all summer long trying to keep up because I don't have room for another person currently. The current shop is 10# of crap in a 5# bag. There isn't going to be much room to add more stuff in the new shop than what I currently have. The goal is to have about 5 guys on the shop floor in this space in the future. If I have to, I'll do the vacuum, and a separate small dc with a mini cyclone just for ease of emptying. I just don't want to. Cost being one, space inside a 14' bench being another. As is I need to dump my current omga since it's pretty much a lawsuit waiting to happen since it has zero guarding on it, and I need to source three replacements for the new benches. It makes me squeamish watching somebody else cut on it. Plus fences, stops, full set of nail guns on each, Mirkas, and the cost of building the benches themselves. Cheap shop vacs are never cheap. They're just a headache waiting to happen. Best to buy something like a festool, or alto wap. I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure the Mirka vacs are built by Alto-Wap which is likely the path I'd go. If you buy their hose it has the power cable in it, and will kick the vac on as soon as you hit the paddle, which would be a nice feature.

The amperage draw doesn't change much on a dust collector while running, (I've actually only heard one bog down once, I don't remember the reason but we had a pipe full of crap that let loose at once. Odd sound), the load is pretty static no matter the amount of gates that are open or closed. It's still a big motor running that if I can avoid it running, I will. It's still pulling through the filters no matter what, and you can't choke them down too much you run the risk of collapsing pipes and cavitation at the impeller. I don't think that cavitation causes any physical harm, but I can't find think of any positives either.


This whole thought process started when we switched to the Mirka sanders early last spring. They are great and we love them, but for whatever reason they send a ton of dust airborne compared to the Dynabrades we used before (which might just be diluting the air because of the compressed air exhaust, making it seem better than it is), or the regular electrics we ran when sanding large panels like box parts. The Mirka's are flat out miserable to run if you aren't either on the downdraft table or in close proximity to it. In the currently tiny shop, all the box assemble takes place within spitting distance of the downdraft table. In the new shop it won't be in the same neighborhood, so something has to be done to pickup the dust on the assembly benches from sanding. Adding a vacuum was my first thought, being able to incorporate the dust collection for the chop saw came second. Making the bench a self contained unit on it's own has a lot of appeal for a multitude of reasons. There isn't a ton of sanding that is done on an assembly bench, basically just the face frame and any finished ends or paneled ends. That little bit sucks though. Pre sanding the frames helps a bunch and cuts the final sanding down to next to nothing, but the extra handling costs money and opens risk to damaging frames. I've always been against the vacuum on the sander itself. Mostly because it's clumsy for detail sanding cabinets and you have to be careful dragging that ribbed hose across things. I just don't see a way around it though for this application though.

I've got lots of ideas. Some good, most bad. No real answers on most of them.

[Marty Schlosser]

Same set-up for me as what Prashun has. It works really well, but i's noisy. I'd love to have a Festool vacuum cleaner in my shop for use with such small machines, but the steep pricetag keep getting in the way.


Ihave this set up. Exactly: dust deputy plus ridgid shop vac. I use it for my. Ros. It works well.

[Max Neu]

I use a festool with a dust deputy for sanding,I think the shop vacs are way too noisy,plus have a short life span if using daily.I like being able to turn down the suction for some sanding operations,which is another benefit of the festool.But,I do use a shop vac with a dust deputy for my panel router,but it's noisy anyway, so it doesn't really matter with that, it's ear muffs regardless.

[Jim Becker]

The bottom line is that you "can" use your regular dust collection system with your smaller, hand-held dust makers, but with a few exceptions on units designed for CNC machines, most dust collectors are not going to do as good a job as a smaller vacuum setup will do. The reason is that dust collection systems are optimized for low pressure, low velocity and high volume whereas vacuums (like the Fein, Festool, Shopvac, etc.) are optimized for high pressure, high velocity and low volume. The small diameter pickup and hose you need to use with small tools works better with the latter setup.

[Peter Quinn]

I've done it in a pinch on at least 3 occasions, once on a 100HP central collector that was pulling down 3 through molders and most of the shop, we made up a port and sent it through a 4X5" inlet for a shaper.....file that under better than nothing, but not real great. That was with a dynebrade. I've tried it a few other times, with a 3HP grizzly when a fein vac went down for instance, pulling a mirka ceros. Not great. The vacuums pull a velocity that you don't get from the chip collectors, and its the velocity that pulls in the fine dust from sanders. Its not heavy, doesn't need CFM's because its not massive volume of material, it needs speed, and you just can't get that kind of speed from a collector no matter how you choke it down pipe size wise.

Oneida does make a collector they market to trades like flooring guys, its a small cyclone with a variable speed motor that will ramp up speed if its connected to a small port, some how it senses the restriction and adjusts? You might be able to get one of those and port the three benches rather than run 3 pricey shop vacs straight out that will not last more than a few years. If you got fancy with a tool trigger switch that would kick it on when ever one of the sander was in use, or put a 3 way mag switch with a starter at each bench, could work?

http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=XCKM010000-IND&CatId={88398A7C-ADBE-46C7-976A-AEAD1AE24147}

http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=XXS020100&CatId={D55CD13D-5CAA-4DD1-8646-157B8B3BDF44}

[Martin Wasner]

Good idea Peter, I'll look into that. A quick glance, holy balls expensive, but I likely wasn't looking at an ideal setup either.

[peter gagliardi]

Well, I am surprised to learn the Mirka system is that bad at dust pickup. Sorry, following a couple of your threads.
Anyway, another option might be to hook a 2 or 3 tap short extension to a Festool collector, and put a couple inline Y's so you get the "instant on" when using a tool, and only need 1 or 2 collectors. The Festool vac allows running the OF 2200, which pulls around 18 or so amps I believe, so with two sanders at 4-5 amps, no problem.

I hate to say it, but the "research" has been done, and all these companies, Festool included, have developed , marketed, and sold the solution.
It's called a vac.
High velocity, low CFM is what you need.

It's obvious you don't have any use for Festool tools reading your posts over the last several years! But I have to tell you, I run an 8500 sf pro shop as well as you, and the Festool vac system, and SOME of their tools have been one of the best investments I have made!
My Festool sanders, and the vac leave a very clean work area. I run them in a sunlit room with a wall of windows 40' wide x 20' tall, you are hard pressed to see airborn dust, even after hours of sanding.
Reinventing the wheel is usually not the most cost effective business decision in the long run.
Just my opinion.

It occurred to me after posting this , that this may have come off as condescending or rude in some way. That is NOT my intent.
Just feedback from someone who has been there, and done that.

[Martin Wasner]

That first one without all the widgets is pretty reasonable. I looked at the floor sanding unit with two parts, over $2k is pretty steep for the application, but $900 fits in the budget. Probably moves enough air for the chop box as well.

[Martin Wasner]

Peter G. I don't get offended and didn't read anything rude. Don't sweat it.

I currently don't use any suction on the mirka's. I'm just looking to not add a vacuum on top of the dust collection if I don't have to.

I've been impressed with every Festool tool I've used too, but not with what they charge. Great stuff, but in my opinion not a good value.

[Larry Copas]

Does anyone have their orbital sander hose plugged into regular dust collection? Does it provide enough suction? A vacuum doesn't have huge cfm numbers, but the suction is pretty great.

Thoughts?

When I first got my Dynabrade, I plumbed it to the shop dust collector. It worked but not well. I than tried one of the cheap 6 HP shop vacs and now it works absolutely perfect. Very seldom do I see any dust escaping or left on the board.

[Peter Quinn]

That first one without all the widgets is pretty reasonable. I looked at the floor sanding unit with two parts, over $2k is pretty steep for the application, but $900 fits in the budget. Probably moves enough air for the chop box as well.

I figure you get three fein vacs, they last you maybe 2 years, maybe 3, cost you the same thing as the Oneida that can run flat out for years. Or two festool vacs. Maybe those last longer....not sure. If three guys are pushing them flat out for multi hour sanding sessions, how long can universal motors go? Peter G would know better, I've just never seen any universal motor based vac system take the use a busy shop can heap on it long term. Festool sander guide itself says if you are sanding more than 2 hours per day constant don't buy their electrics, go pneumatic. I've tried to sell owners at several shops where I worked on the Oneida vac concept.....they all choke up and say no.....they all wind up paying more over the years.

[peter gagliardi]

I figure you get three fein vacs, they last you maybe 2 years, maybe 3, cost you the same thing as the Oneida that can run flat out for years. Or two festool vacs. Maybe those last longer....not sure. If three guys are pushing them flat out for multi hour sanding sessions, how long can universal motors go? Peter G would know better, I've just never seen any universal motor based vac system take the use a busy shop can heap on it long term. Festool sander guide itself says if you are sanding more than 2 hours per day constant don't buy their electrics, go pneumatic. I've tried to sell owners at several shops where I worked on the Oneida vac concept.....they all choke up and say no.....they all wind up paying more over the years.

Peter, there is no question that an induction motor should outlast a universal motor. As for a Festool vac's longevity, I don't really know. All I do know is that I bought my first one 10-12 years ago, and it would seem I have a similar workload as Martin describes, and it has needed nothing!
I wore out the brushes on one Rotex sander using that vac, but the vac keeps on ticking.
I should mention that I came about my solution from a different angle though.
I wanted the best performing, most versatile piece of equipment I could find for the money- I think the Festool system has done that for MY requirements.
It lives mostly in the shop, but if I go out in the field, it goes with me on installs. It is night and day the difference the system makes for a clean work environment- even if it has to be in a client's living room.
We install everything we build- cabinets, flooring, stairs, railings, windows, and doors, etc.... We build and finish everything ourselves- no outsourcing of drawers or doors etc..
So my requirements are quality and flexibility to get the best payback. If I get 10 years of daily use out of these small power tools without downtime for repair, I win, so to speak.
If I were ONLY going to chain it to a bench, I might look at other options as well, but I need more/different from my investments.