Quarter-round on a shaper

[Denis Kenzior]

I'm looking to add quarter round capability to my shaper. Any recommendations on shaper cutters to consider? I'd prefer to go with an insert head that can accept multiple knives with different radii. So far I've found heads from Freud, Felder/Hammer and CMT that seem to fit the bill.

Are there other choices? Do such heads support the use of a rub collar for template guided work?

[Martin Wasner]

I'd use an out board fence instead of a bearing for just runs of moulding. Any he'd can accommodate a bearing, you might have to get creative with your template if the head is taller our the bearing has to sit really low compared to your cut.

Dimensions In Tooling has what they call a crank head that you can have custom profiles cut for. I just bought a bunch of their stuff and I'm extremely pleased. You have to purchase through a dealer. Their website is pretty much worthless and I'm pretty sure they don't deal with the public. I can pm you the phone number of the salesman I use at acme told if you like.

[Max Neu]

Depending on how big your shaper is,you might want to look into getting a corrugated head.I have a Weinig head,it's a little over 5" high,so you can have multiple profiles on each cutter.I prefer carbide inserts,but for short runs,it's nice to have that option.

[Denis Kenzior]

Martin,

I'm more interested in processing panels. My initial use case is for putting round overs on curved furniture parts, cutting boards, doors, table tops, etc. So I need template / rub bearing capability. I don't want to invest in something like an Aigner Bowmould just yet.

[Denis Kenzior]

Max,

I've got two medium-heavy duty shapers (Knapp & Minimax T55W). I considered a corrugated head, but my work uses mostly basic shapes. E.g. shaker style doors, chamfers and roundovers. I use 3mm - 6mm (1/16-1/4) round overs quite a bit. So I'm thinking it makes sense to invest in a decent insert carbide head.

[Max Neu]

Denis,
I agree,if you run these profiles a lot,I think your better off with carbide.For these simple roundovers,I would just consider doing your radius /template work with a router table.I just bought a Kreg router table recently for odds and ends like that.Sometimes it's more hassle than what it's worth doing things like that on a big shaper,I think my shaper fence weighs more than the whole router table does soaking wet.With a router table and matching router bits,I save a lot of time vs. messing around with time consuming jigs just for a piece or two.

[Denis Kenzior]

I've been using the router for this up to this point, but I'm not happy with the results. Surface quality is so-so and it is too easy to burn the work if I hesitate just a bit (hand-feeding while using a template makes this quite likely). So I'm thinking a bigger radius, less rpm (e.g. shaper) is what I need to try next.

[Max Neu]

I know what your saying,there's no free lunch.If you use the same shapes and already have a system/jigs made for it,shaper would definitely be better.But if it's a one off,I would reach for the router table every time.

[Martin Wasner]

Try it with brazed tooling first before diving into a spendy head.

I'd go face down and just run the material against a fence. Unless you're talking a full round over with no flat, that might be a challenge.

[Rod Sheridan]

Denis, why don't you just try the 40mm head with steel knives and a bearing to see how you like it.

I don't have burning issues with above setup, far superior to a router/.........Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm confused about what you are doing. You indicate radius 1/4" and under, those are more easily accomplished with a router IME, router bits have bearings, generally reference the work, there is no need to involve a pattern? Keep them sharp, use quality bits, climb cut as necessary? Sure, the shaper is a fantastic way to trim those curves to pattern, but its not my go to for small round overs except on lengths of stock such as moldings where there is a lot of straight stock to process. Honestly a good trim router will handle most of those sizes with ease.

That said amana makes some multi roundover carbide insert heads that might do what you seek.

http://www.amanatool.com/products/shaper-cutters/insert-shaper-cutters/profiling-insert-shaper-cutters/insert-multi-round-over-shaper-cutters/61430-insert-carbide-multi-round-over-180mm-dia-x-35mm-x-1-1-4-bore.html

http://www.amanatool.com/products/shaper-cutters/insert-shaper-cutters/profiling-insert-shaper-cutters/insert-multi-round-over-shaper-cutters/61421-insert-carbide-multi-round-over-140mm-dia-x-18mm-x-1-1-4-bore.html

Not sure but you might be able to outfit these with bearings, amana has a good insert bearing system in metric with most popular radii. Garniga makes a similar set of heads and bearings are available, all at considerable cost.


Turning tight corners on a shaper with pattern can be a thing of some difficulty and danger, not always a viable approach to every shaping situation.

[Jared Sankovich]

Denis, why don't you just try the 40mm head with steel knives and a bearing to see how you like it.


Its a relatively inexpensive option, considering the number of profiles availible.

[Jeff Duncan]

Gotta agree with Peter here, roundovers and chamfers under 1/4" are quicker and easier with a router than a shaper. I wouldn't bother with a router table either for that matter. For small work like that I use a small PC router and it zips though much faster than I could do on a table, and the quality is as good as the person running it. And it's not b/c I lack in tooling or shapers, I've got plenty of heads to run what I need. Just comes down to what's easier, quicker and more cost effective and the small router wins on all those points....IMHO anyway;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Denis Kenzior]

Rod,

I have a euro-block head, but I can't seem to find stock profiles with round overs that small. I'm not sure I want the hassle of grinding a custom profile and then trying to match it to a particular bearing. Any pointers?

[Denis Kenzior]

Peter,

Let me give you a quick example:

327716

When routing round-overs on this cutting board, I had burn marks on 6 / 8 corners (4 on each top / bottom). That is because I couldn't keep the stock moving fast enough around the tight radius of the corners. The bit is decent, still sharp. Router speed turned all the way down. And even playing silly router tricks like making the first pass with 90% stock removal, and 10% on the second pass. Doing this free-hand would have been even worse as I have even less control than on the table.

So while the router setup time was minimal, I ended up with considerable amount of time in sanding the burn marks and less than spectacular result at the end. I'd rather spend a bit more time with a shaper setup and less time sanding.

Here are the heads I'm considering:
http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_items.asp?pars=HK~694.003~2
http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-cutter-Profile-Cutters/Radius-cutters-Wooden-Case-Set-DB-HW.html

I was told the Felder head uses 110mm bearing for all radiuses.

[Denis Kenzior]

Jeff,

Agreed on all points. If I can keep the stock moving the router is cheaper / faster / easier. But it seems I can't keep the stock moving fast enough ;)

[Peter Quinn]

Problem I identify...you should not be moving the stock, you should be using a small router with a well waxed base and moving the router around the work. Perhaps get a vacuum clamp for quick hold down adjustments. On corners that tight on a shaper with 5"+ head, it's no joy turning the wood either. And if you bobble and it turns into climb cut.....your problems will vastly exceed sanding. Further problem...you have to attach a template, possible to your show face, then remove said template.....clean up the tape, or make still blown captive jig to pass these safely. I'd be thinking 1 1/2 hp router fixed base and a light touch on the corners. I usually climb the corners taking a light first pass to drop maybe half the stock then a full depth clean up pass. All free hand.


PS: Beautiful work by the way!

[Denis Kenzior]

Peter,

I've been doing this for 15 years and I've done it every way possible in that time. I find I'm much more comfortable doing this sort of stuff on the table. I never seem to have as much control with a hand-held router and the results are always worse. However, this is getting away from the original topic.

[Max Neu]

After viewing the pictures, I think Peter gave you the best advise, I know its not what you want to hear since you want to do it on a shaper, but I think the shaper is the least practical option.

[Warren Lake]

While back I tested a 3/8 profile on serrated edge knife against a brand new 3/8 router bit. The serrated cutter had been used a bunch in the past and I just honed it flat on the shaper table at 400 and 800 grit sandpaper. both surfaces were good but no comparison the high speed steel was outstanding. The router bit surface looked like the wood had been scrubbed or torn away in comparison. realize we are talking two different radiuses as well. This was just for a short run so the high speed steel was not being asked to do thousands of feet, it was all side grain no end grain.

I keep a small laminate trimmer for small radius stuff, go backwards by hand first not removing all the material as the trimmer or bigger router by hand sort of float as you go backwards, then go forward. I still prefer the high speed steel when possible. If your cutting board was not flat you may not get a consistent cut on the radius compared to a hand held router if its not always tight to the table

I know there are all kinds of new style cutters thanks for posting those, thats all new to me im still on old school stuff. New stuff looks easier and quick to set up, replace cutters etc

[Denis Kenzior]

Max,

There are two separate operations being done on this cutting board and you guys might be confusing the two. First operation is to take a rectangular board and make the corners rounded, ala an iPhone icon. Peter suggests doing this using a hand-held router. I do this on the table with a 3/4" shear-flush bit from Whiteside using something like this for the template:
http://www.ptreeusa.com/rtr_jigs_radius_templates.htm

The above operation is easy and un-exciting.

The second operation is to route a round-over over the top and bottom of the piece using a bearing. No matter how I do it, hand-held or on the table, I can't move the router consistently enough not to cause a burn. This is a worst-case scenario since we're talking about end-grain on burn-prone woods. Maybe you guys can and I'm just not agile enough. But I'm not necessarily interested in developing my agility at the moment :)

Several people with much more experience than I do have suggested that I should use a slower rpm + larger radius cutter to make this work well (e.g. shaper). I'd like to give this a try.

[Rod Sheridan]

327726327727327728

Here's what it looks like with steel knives in a shaper on end and side grain.

No burning at all, finish like glass.

Forget the router........Rod

[Peter Quinn]

Max,

There are two separate operations being done on this cutting board and you guys might be confusing the two. First operation is to take a rectangular board and make the corners rounded, ala an iPhone icon. Peter suggests doing this using a hand-held router.

The second operation is to route a round-over over the top and bottom of the piece using a bearing. No matter how I do it, hand-held or on the table, I can't move the router consistently enough not to cause a burn. This is a worst-case scenario since we're talking about end-grain on burn-prone woods. Maybe you guys can and I'm just not agile enough. But I'm not necessarily interested in developing my agility at the moment :)



Dennis, It was not my intention to insult your experience. I never suggested making the corner radius with a freehand router, that I'd probably do on the shaper with a spiral insert head and a pattern screwed on from below. If you are going to do the 1/4 rounds on a shaper you might be able to leave the pattern on and stack some bushings so the bearing is higher, the pattern on top, the work face down. I'd put some good handles on the pattern to facilitate rotating the work, IME its really hard to keep a consistent feed rate and pressure on corners that tight regardless of method.

Freeborn makes 1/4 rounds in most popular sizes and they use consistent diameters generally so you could probably have a set of cutters and one bearing. The amana multi-step heads I referenced above would require one of the bearing/sleeve kits. Another option brought up is the Profile pro Euro block type heads. I use amana for those.....and their documentation stinks. Luckily these euro block pattern are pretty much the same across every vendor. They are sold by Dimar in canada, and their documentation is impeccable.

http://www.amanatool.com/nsearch/?q=profile+pro+knives#/?keywords=profile+pro+knives&sort_by_field=Name+A-Z&search_return=all&page=2

http://dimar-canada.com/pdf/MultiProfileCutters3.pdf

Look at knives number 21 and 22, there are a few other 1/4 round knives as well. With the information from dimar that gives all the radius numbers and the distance from the locking pins, and information about your particular head, you should be able to calculate which bearing sleeve is required for each cut and use the profile pro set with a bearing. The sleeves are pretty cheap and work well. Only thing I don't like about that equation is the stuff sold in USA has no chip limiters, so the potential for problems does exist. Those are pretty small cuts, and assuming you have already shaped the corners to pattern its not much material being taken, thats just a lot of knife swinging . Unless of course you have a set from Felder, who do offer a chip limiting head. One thing is for sure, the cut from a shaper is almost always better.

[Jeff Duncan]

Having seen what your trying to work I'd really suggest trying again with a small trim router. Not the big 1-1/2 hp beast you use for say a table edge, (which is what I'm guessing you've tried unsuccessfully?), but a small trim router you can comfortably hold in one hand. It may seem unwieldy at first, but shouldn't take long to get used to. I would do all the edges of those boards and the router would never stop moving, I'd guess maybe 30 seconds tops to do each board.

I'm not saying you can't do it on a shaper, but it's not nearly as safe or quick and your going to need to invest a lot more to get a head, knives, and correct sized bearing. And unfortunately what Rod showed while a nice setup, isn't what we're discussing, so won't work for what your trying to do. What Peter brought up with the Euro block could work....but again is going to cost a lot more and not be nearly as safe.

This is one of those things that's harder to explain well in text, but I bet if someone could walk you through it in person you'd be able to push those puppies through quickly!

good luck,
JeffD

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod,

I have a euro-block head, but I can't seem to find stock profiles with round overs that small. I'm not sure I want the hassle of grinding a custom profile and then trying to match it to a particular bearing. Any pointers?


Denis, what radius are you looking for?

This cutter has some very small radius profiles
327815

Regards, Rod.

[Denis Kenzior]

Jeff,

I spent the summer building a bunch of shelving and had to run lots of 1/4R round overs. Tool of choice was a PC Laminate Trimmer. Plenty of practice for that project. I hated it. PC spins far too fast at 30k rpm, unforgiving (e.g. burn) any time you hesitate. Narrow base makes it a pain to use. Got rid of it after that project. Maybe a DW611 or a Bosch Colt with an offset base would have worked better, and I will pick one of those up eventually. However, I must be not as agile as you guys are as I feel much more comfortable / safer using a table.

[Denis Kenzior]

Rod,

As I do a bunch of one-off-pieces I'd like to have as much choice as possible. E.g. 3 mm, 4mm, 6mm and 8mm. That's why I'm looking into insert systems as the minor radius is (supposedly?) consistent. E.g. I would invest in a single bearing + cutter.

It doesn't seem that euro-block cutters are designed this way. So I'd need multiple bearing sizes.

[Peter Quinn]

Rod,

As I do a bunch of one-off-pieces I'd like to have as much choice as possible. E.g. 3 mm, 4mm, 6mm and 8mm. That's why I'm looking into insert systems as the minor radius is (supposedly?) consistent. E.g. I would invest in a single bearing + cutter.

It doesn't seem that euro-block cutters are designed this way. So I'd need multiple bearing sizes.

Which insert systems have you found where you purchase a single head, single bearing, and multiple insert knives of different radii? I'm not seeing that anywhere, most of the insert carbide has very little off set from its backer material, so here are real structural limits to how many 1/4 rounds you could spin with the same basic head. Comes down to the thickness of the carbide chips. Does somebody offer such a thing? The amana (and others offer similar) bearing system solves part of the cost problem. You buy a single bearing, and they sell sleeves that fit over he bearing made of anodized aluminum in various metric increments. Sleeves are around $16, the bearing around $35, there is a lock bushing needed to hold the whole thing together on he spindle. Way cheaper than a pile of bearings some of which are almost as expensive as the heads. I think you get better surface finish from HSS than insert carbide with fresh knives, but it's an awfully close race, and insert carbide pulls ahead after the first lap!

[glenn bradley]

Surface quality is so-so and it is too easy to burn the work if I hesitate just a bit (hand-feeding while using a template makes this quite likely). So I'm thinking a bigger radius, less rpm (e.g. shaper) is what I need to try next.

Just dial the router speed down but, your logic seems sound for the shaper. I do not know about different radii via different inserts. Doesn't the insert need proper support behind the cutting edge?

[peter gagliardi]

Dennis, if all you are doing is straight runs, and convex curves, the shaper is ideal, especially if using steel as Rod said. If that's the case, all you need is the head, with knife steel or carbide, and a straight fence. Only if doing concave do you start needing a different setup. Personally if doing concave, and I had the option, I would just fab up a curved dead collar to drop over the spindle and clamp to table when necessary.
Small boards like this with minute material removal on a corner edge can quite safely be whipped thru the shaper with perfect results.
I will almost always use the shaper if possible over a router.

[Denis Kenzior]

Peter,

Still need to confirm with Felder, but I was told the Felder insert head uses a 110mm bearing for all 6 profiles (3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 mm). The Hammer / CMT cutter looks to be similar, but a little less flexible since some profiles have to be run with the stock face down and some face up.

There's also systems like these:
http://www.omastools.com/prodotto.php?p=teste-con-inserti-profilati&id=5+Art393-C&page=61

[Eric D Matson]

I have made cutting boards like that and have used a handheld router for all the profiling. I used a 5/8" round overbit to cut the corners and a 1/4" roundover for the rest. I do have the DeWalt 618 and 611. I sure do like the 611. The base on the 611 is bigger on one side so it is easier to hold flat on the surface. I didn't have any noticeable burning that I can remember.

327840

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,

Still need to confirm with Felder, but I was told the Felder insert head uses a 110mm bearing for all 6 profiles (3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 mm). The Hammer / CMT cutter looks to be similar, but a little less flexible since some profiles have to be run with the stock face down and some face up.

There's also systems like these:
http://www.omastools.com/prodotto.php?p=teste-con-inserti-profilati&id=5+Art393-C&page=61

Is the quarter round cutter on fielders site? I don't see any dedicated 1/4 round heads listed. Any link?

[Denis Kenzior]

Peter,

The Felder system is an insert-based system. I posted it upthread, but here's the link again:
http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-cutter-Profile-Cutters/Radius-cutters-Wooden-Case-Set-DB-HW.html

They also have a Hammer system here:
http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-cutter-Profile-Cutters/Multi-radius-cutter-DB-HW.html

[jim mills]

I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to wanting fancy tooling to do a simple task, but I think you are way off base on this one. Every one of Peter Q's posts on why you shouldn't do this are spot on. Pattern cutting on a shaper is nothing to sneeze at, and doing small pieces, with tight radius's makes it even more dangerous. Even the slightest miss move, causing a climb cut can launch the workpiece at cutterhead speed. That's not something you want to experience.

An offset router base would be a simple solution for this task. I've got several, even one 4' long that I use to radius large drawer boxes after they are assembled. Gives you much better control of the router, and works as good as any machine operation.

You may be determined to do this with shaper tooling, but for anyone else following along considering the same thing, I'd reconsider.