Question about sharpening

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I have a LN no5 jack plane but I think there is a problem with the blade as it comes from factory. It has a completely square edge which means that I get grooves to each side of the shavings. I believe a Jack plane should have a small radius on the edge.

The question is, how do achieve a small radius on my blade without sharpening free hand ? As it is right now Im using a sharpening jig. Is there a way to sort of round the corners of the blade and still using a jig ?

Best regards

Lasse Hilbrandt

[Garrett Ellis]

use your fingers to put more pressure on the outside corners of the blade while sharpening, thus removing more material from the corners.

or you can use a cambered roller setup like the veritas one. what jig are you using?

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

This one

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-rider-honing-guide-340147

[Dave Beauchesne]

Lasse:

Like Garrett says, when you get the blade sharp ( initially ) put finger pressure for a few strokes ( count them ) on the left hand edge, then the same number of strokes on the right hand edge. It takes a while initially, but keep track by holding the blade up to a square to make sure you are keeping things even.

A couple thousandths on each side to begin with should do it, or work your way up to the desired radius.

Good luck;

Dave B

[Robert Hazelwood]

You can put a fairly pronounced camber on the edge with that type of jig, if you want. Just control where you apply pressure like Garrett and Dave mentioned.

You can also round the corners of the blade, keeping the center section straight. You basically tilt the whole jig over and work down the corners before sharpening the remaining middle section as normal.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Thanks for info.

Are anybody using the cambered honing jig from Veritas and how do you like it ?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The jig you have looks very similar to the one inexpensive one sold by Lie Nielsen, which is the one I use. I use the technique of putting slightly more pressure at the corners to ease the edges of the iron, and it works because you do not need to ease them very much to take care of the plane tracks. If you do that and are still having problems, check the alignment of the iron in the plane. When I have plane tracks, it is mostly not having the iron properly aligned (square) in the mouth, so one side is digging in a little more than the other and leaving the marks.

[Jim Koepke]

When I have plane tracks, it is mostly not having the iron properly aligned (square) in the mouth, so one side is digging in a little more than the other and leaving the marks.

It also depends on how thick a shaving is being taken.

One way to camber with that type of honing guide is a different "ruler trick."

Roll one side of the roller on a thin steel ruler, then do the same with the other side. This will restrict the rolling distance.

Another "ruler trick" is to lift the roller on a ruler to produce a micro bevel. These should work in theory as well as practice. There is more than one way to eliminate blade tracks.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

That type of jig you are using has the single, fairly narrow wheel in the center of the base specifically to allow you to "roll" the edge from side to side using finger pressure at the outer corners so that you can relieve the corners of the blade edge. It is not hard to do and does not take much to get rid of the tracks at the edges of the blade. All new plane blades (to my inexpert knowledge) come square ended from the factory and the user is expected to shape the edge into whatever profile desired. David Charlesworth has a DVD that demonstrates plane blade sharpening and using that technique if you are interested. Actually, the DVD has lots of insightful info on planes - their setup and use.

[Derek Cohen]

If you plan to add a "jack-type" 8" radius camber to the blade - which is what I do with my #5 - then this is NOT something you with do with a honing guide (well you can, but it is only for the desperate or the masochists among us!). You make a camber of this size with a grinder (marking off with a cardboard or ply template), and then you hone it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

You make a camber of this size with a grinder (marking off with a cardboard or ply template), and then you hone it.

If you have a grinder this is the easy way.

There are many ways to get a camber on a blade.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

If one must do it by hand - no choice - then I would mark the 8" camber on the blade with a sharpie or marking fluid, and clamp the blade vertically in a vise. Then I would use a diamond stone to "file" down to the marked camber, and no attempt to create a bevel. Add the bevel in afterwards using a honing guide, such as the Eclipse, working to the profile.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I think I will grind an 8" camber and then make a new bevel and edge. I´ts a little surpricing that the top planemakers chose to grind all of except the scrub plane blade completely square, when most bench planes would benefit from a slight camber. I guess its just easier for them to make them square.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

It is funny how everyone looks at the same message and sees something slightly different. I guess that is why crowd sourcing works.

What profile you want on that blade to some extent depends on what you want to use the plane for. If you are using it as a traditional jack for heavy work, you will want more of a camber like Derek is suggesting. If this is your only plane I would be reluctant to do that, because then you will not be able to use it very well for edge jointing or smoothing, both of which do better with a square iron (with the corners very slightly relieved).

It sounds to me like you may be getting familiar with planes, and if that is the case my money is on the blade not being properly aligned in the plane as opposed to a significant problem with the blade from the factory. I would recommend you spend some time reading about how to set the plane up and adjust it, and focus heavily on that before you take a grinder to your new blade, or otherwise put a significant radius on it (unless you do plan to use it as a traditional jack, in which case grind away). Remember any radius you put on the blade is going to show up in the planed surface, so with an 8" camber you will go from plane tracks to undulations.

I do not have any Lie Nielsens, but I understand they have a Bedrock configuration, and based on what I read about their fitting and finishing I would expect the frog came from the factory properly set up. Try focusing on getting the blade as close to square to the frog as you can (with the lateral adjustment lever centered) before you lock down the lever cap. Then very slowly advance the blade into the throat until it is just protruding. I usually try to to get it square and even across the throat by eye, and then do some test cuts on scrap, adjusting the blade with the lateral adjustment lever until I am getting equal thickness shavings all the way across. When I was starting out I did not really understand how fine the adjustments sometimes have to be to get the result you want. I would advance the blade a half turn and think I was making a small adjustment, when really it is sometimes "just nothing" that makes the plane start doing what you want. The same is true with the lateral adjustments.

ETA: here is a link to a Lie Nielsen video where they demonstrate adjustment of the blade.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CpQSDI0SNIc

[Derek Cohen]

I think I will grind an 8" camber and then make a new bevel and edge. I´ts a little surpricing that the top planemakers chose to grind all of except the scrub plane blade completely square, when most bench planes would benefit from a slight camber. I guess its just easier for them to make them square.

Hi Lasse

My discussion of an 8" radius was simply an example of why grinding is needed to achieve a camber of this type, which is generally the extreme one goes to on a #5. In this mode the plane is for coarse work - not as radical as a scrub plane (3" radius), but far, far less that the camber of a smoother (which would be the thickness of the thickest shaving you would take at each side of the blade).

Cambers for coarse work are more efficiently done with a with a grinder. However cambers for all else are completed on a stone, either freehand or with a honing guide.

My preferred use of a #5 is as a coarse plane. It is a decent general purpose plane, however, and may be used as a smoother or a short joiner. The latter two may use the same blade, as described above. What I would do is get a second blade so that you can use the #5 as a coarse and a fine plane.

This is what an 8" camber looks like (on my #605). As you can see, it will cut deeply, which is what is desired in coarse planing. This is far from the near-straight blade of a "smoother".

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Stanley%20Bed%20Rock%20605/Bedrock%20605-10_zpsxsatqsdw.jpg

The reason that the plane comes with a straight blade is that LN (and others) leave the decision to you how you would prefer to utilise the plane. There is no single method.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Luter]

Thanks for info.

Are anybody using the cambered honing jig from Veritas and how do you like it ?

I have this one in addition to the standard version for my MKII honing guide. It works well for adding subtle camber to a straight iron, or for sharpening an iron that's been cambered on a grinder.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Sharpening/05m0905s1.jpg

[Robert Engel]

I've not had much luck with putting more pressure toward corners.

I no longer use a jig I simply round off the corners.

However if you're doing a camber that won't apply

Keep in mind with cambered blade you can't use for shooting.

[Mike Holbrook]

I agree with Derek, in spades. I spent years struggling with making bevels on thick plane blades and cambering edges. I tried all sorts of methods. For me the bottom line was progress on most media is so slow it is very difficult to see what is going on, skewing the results, often horribly. I am not saying results are not achievable. I am saying that one needs to develop a specific skill set, methodology and a good deal of patience to produce reasonable results. I do understand that if one is dealing with predominately softer, simpler steels the job is easier but I have an increasing array of harder and tougher steels as do many woodworkers. I also understand that some do not use large cambers in their plane blades, I do.

I am a great fan of CBN wheels on a grinder, there have been many posts on this topic. Sure the job can be done with stone wheels. There is the risk of stone wheels, especially cheaper ones, breaking and I personally have issues with all the dust and refuse they make. I can grind a camber sooooo much faster and precisely with the CBN wheel and grinder. For me it is simply a matter of being able to tell/see what is happening while it is going on. Trying to count strokes may work for some people but I find it difficult to maintain the same arch/pressure/angle over the much longer time frame. People seem to think working by hand is inaccurate. I have found the opposite to be true, it is precisely the ability to adapt by small increments during the process that allows me to achieve more accurate results.

Some argue that a CBN wheel is not necessary and I understand that view. On the other hand the ability to sharpen quickly, accurately by hand sort of makes or breaks my enjoyment and success rate with hand tools. I don't think sharpening is the place to pinch pennies. If I have to get out a Veritas jig, put it together, set it, find/change the camber wheel, count strokes... well the likely hood of that happening on a regular basis is much less than my turning on the grinder. For me it is a simple matter of time and required effort, neither of which I ever seem to have enough of.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Im sorry, I don´t know what a CBN wheel is. Do you sharpen all of your planes with that ?

[david charlesworth]

I think I would be right in saying that no bench plane (except a scrub plane) comes with a cambered blade.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Mike Holbrook]

CBN wheels have a sort of artificial diamond coating, that has been popularized by turners who sharpen hardened steel frequently. Diamonds can fracture against hard steel when on the surface of fast moving grinder wheels, due I believe to their extreme hardness. There is more to toughness in steels and steel sharpeners than just hardness. CBN wheels have a life span that many claim is longer than the average human lifetime. Turners who sharpen much more frequently than most woodworkers typically do not wear them out. In addition to removing steel at very fast rates, they typically do not dish or become significantly less wide with use. Typically they are used to do the initial grinding of bevels, cambers...and the final sharpening is done with a couple stones or a diamond plate and stones.

I have a Eze-Lap 400-1200 grit 2x6" diamond sharpener and a medium & fine/xtrafine Spyderco stones that can have my blades very sharp in a very few strokes after they come off the grinder. The diamond stone is usually used to remove small nicks etc. Most of my blades just see the Spyderco stones regularly. The Spydercos are more polishing stones, they do not require water or oil to work and typically do not need to be leveled. Spydercos are very hard ceramic. I like having a system that does not require water or stone leveling and works very quickly.

[Tom M King]

The pressure to the edges method really only works for something like a smoothing plane where the goal is to take super thin shavings. For something like a Jack plane iron with an 8" radius camber, it really needs to be ground first. I have the MKII with the cambered roller, but for irons with really small radius cambers like a scrub plane, when I use a guide it's an old Record guide with a ball for a roller. It allows almost any camber to be honed with a guide. I've never used one of my Eclipses to hone a camber. I'd like to have one of the Eclipses with a ball roller, but never took the time to modify one.

[ken hatch]

I think I would be right in saying that no bench plane (except a scrub plane) comes with a cambered blade.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

David,

I know it doesn't count but the PhillyPlane "Jack" comes with a nicely cambered O-1 single iron. Other than that I expect you are correct 😀.

ken

BTW, my RV is backed up to Sea of Cortez and I just finished watching your Part 2 Hand Planing video with single malt in hand and waves crashing on the beach in the background. It doesn't get much better.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Mike,

I have found the same issue that you describe - trying to get a camber in a hard tool steel blade is painful. I have tried the pressure on either side of the blade advice and find that I have either really screwed up the blade - ending up having to take it all down and start over, or that in most instances, nothing happens. I still get plane tracks. Part of the issue is I don't know about how much camber I want to work with, because basically I haven't had any success in getting one. I have thought of taking a new LN or a Hock blade over to my grinder and basically nipping off the corners, but as you say, the grinder is a scary device. Both from a safety perspective and a destroying the temper perspective. Like Lasse (the OP) - I had never heard of a CBN wheel. I Googled it and find there are a bunch of styles. Lasse, if you haven't looked it up - - CBN stands for "Cubic Boron Nitride". It is apparently a compound just slightly less hard than diamond, and doesn't break apart like a stone wheel will do. It comes in coarse and fine, and supposedly will last for years. But they ain't cheap! ~$150 or so per wheel. I don't mind spending the cash, but I want to make sure I am getting the right one. What is the right one... :-) ? I have a variable speed Delta 8" grinder - a pretty common one I believe. I don't do any turning, so I can't speak from that perspective. I just want to shape my plane blades.

Lasse - please forgive me if I am hijacking your post. I think this is along the same question you were asking.

Joe

I would appreciate hearing what you use and how you do it -

[Tom M King]

I've had the radiused edge variation of this one for over two years, and it changes the game of grinding. I'd buy this one if I was getting one today, since Derek had trouble with a radiused edge one like mine. http://d-waytools.com/cbn-grinding-wheels/cbn-wheel-8-x-1-1-2-x-1-arbor-hole/ Mine is the 180 grit, and I've never needed anything coarser. It takes metal off so fast and easy that you have to be careful to have a really light touch.

[Derek Cohen]

With CBN wheels in mind, here is a link to the article I wrote earlier this year:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

CBN wheels have been around a long time, possibly 20 years. In recent years they were used almost exclusively by turners to grind their HSS chisels, and were little known by other woodworkers. I came across them when looking for a better, cleaner, quicker, and more efficient method of grinding than either a Tormek of the white wheels on a bench grinder. They were, and remain, a revolution for flat woodworkers. Relatively pricy to outlay (about $200), but much cheaper than a Tormek, and over time they will save you a lot of money.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

If one must do it by hand - no choice - then I would mark the 8" camber on the blade with a sharpie or marking fluid, and clamp the blade vertically in a vise. Then I would use a diamond stone to "file" down to the marked camber, and no attempt to create a bevel. Add the bevel in afterwards using a honing guide, such as the Eclipse, working to the profile.

Regards from Perth

Derek

This thread is reminiscent of the discussion that followed my review of the WR #5 inasmuch as people seem to be talking past each other due to incompatible interpretations of how a Jack should be tuned and used. If you're using your Jack in its historically "correct" role as a roughing plane, then use something like Derek's process or the very similar one I'll outline below to apply a uniform radius. If you're using your Jack as a "super smoother" or "mini jointer" then simply pressure the corners as many others have described. If you're using it as a shooter then you'd probably just want to clip the corners or leave them as-is. I personally have Jacks set up all 3 ways - there's no single right answer IMO.

I have the Veritas mk 2 guide and cambered roller, and as its manual acknowledges its intended use is to relieve the corners by a few or several mils by "pressuring the corners" during honing. As such it's useful to fix tracking issues with smoothers and jointers, but not to create a radiused edge profile as for traditionally configured scrubs, jacks, or fores. It simply isn't cambered enough for that.

The Eclipse-style guide is also somewhat limited in terms of achievable radius unless you do some grinding/filing to bevel the outside edges of the axle supports. For small radii on narrow blades (for example a 3" radius on a 1.5" scrub blade) you also have to allow the screw and guide rods to hang over the edge of the waterstone when working the corners.

FWIW my process is sort of a hybrid between the one Derek described above and the one he described in another post. To wit:

1. I created a set of phenolic templates at various radii from 3" (scrub) to 16", with centering features to help me get them quickly lined up on the blade.

2. Paint the back of the blade with Dykem marking fluid, attach the template, and scribe the desired edge outline with an awl

3. Set grinder tool rest to 90 deg, grind back to the outline from (2) creating a blunt edge. This is done to avoid overheating a thin edge in the next step

4. Set grinder tool rest to desired primary bevel, grind until the blunt edge from (3) is uniformly almost but not quite sharp. Because the blunt edge from (3) conducts heat reasonably well you only have to worry about burning (at least with the CBN wheels I use, which run very cool) towards the end of this step.

5. Switch to medium waterstone and eclipse guide, establish secondary bevel to sharp edge. This is where the last bit of the blunt face from (3) gets removed

6. Hone, again with Eclipse guide. I personally set a tertiary bevel ~1 deg steeper than the secondary from (5) at this point, as advocated by Charlesworth and Brent Beach. Doing this makes the honing go very quickly

[Patrick Chase]

If you plan to add a "jack-type" 8" radius camber to the blade - which is what I do with my #5 - then this is NOT something you with do with a honing guide (well you can, but it is only for the desperate or the masochists among us!). You make a camber of this size with a grinder (marking off with a cardboard or ply template), and then you hone it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The Eclipse guides work pretty well for radii all the way down to ~3" (the guide rods and screw become big problems below that. Even at 3" they require some finessing). I wouldn't characterize it as "desperation" or "masochism" :-).

[Trevor Goodwin]

I've just bought a Record Power 10" Wet Stone sharpening system, which is basically a cheaper Tormek. My priorities were quietness and accuracy, and its definitely quiet but not as accurate as I'd like regarding the jigs and tool rests. Grinding a chisel or plane iron is a slow process with this machine, but at least twice as fast as doing it by hand. You also get a hollow grind which is a huge advantage of grinding on wheel in my opinion: Once you've turned a flat bevel into a concave surface, all you need to do to hone is "click" it into place on a fine stone and take a few swipes. If you are using flat stones for grinding a chisel, yes you can save time by working on a secondary bevel only, but then you lose your large reference surface for using the chisel bevel-down. Hopefully I'm not starting another 50 page sharpening battle again.

I'm waiting on a "plane camber" jig for my machine, but I expect I will need to rough out cambers either by hand with a super coarse stone, or using the flat tool rest and doing as Patrick described (3); before the jig can be used. I plan to write a review of the machine here once I've played with it a lot more, as there is very little info on the web about it currently. Thankfully a lot of information on the Tormek system applies to it, and in the fact a lot of the jigs are compatible.

Derek, I've read your sharpening pages and I'm intrigued by your CBN wheels. They cost less than a replacement Tormek wheel and potentially last longer. Did you consider fitting an 8-10" CBN wheel on your Tormek and running it at full speed without the water bath? Also, where on earth did you find a half-speed grinder? - even the heavy duty 10" and 12" grinders I can find are running at ~3000RPM

[Patrick Chase]

I agree with Derek, in spades. I spent years struggling with making bevels on thick plane blades and cambering edges. I tried all sorts of methods. For me the bottom line was progress on most media is so slow it is very difficult to see what is going on, skewing the results, often horribly. I am not saying results are not achievable. I am saying that one needs to develop a specific skill set, methodology and a good deal of patience to produce reasonable results. I do understand that if one is dealing with predominately softer, simpler steels the job is easier but I have an increasing array of harder and tougher steels as do many woodworkers. I also understand that some do not use large cambers in their plane blades, I do.

I am a great fan of CBN wheels on a grinder, there have been many posts on this topic. Sure the job can be done with stone wheels. There is the risk of stone wheels, especially cheaper ones, breaking and I personally have issues with all the dust and refuse they make. I can grind a camber sooooo much faster and precisely with the CBN wheel and grinder. For me it is simply a matter of being able to tell/see what is happening while it is going on. Trying to count strokes may work for some people but I find it difficult to maintain the same arch/pressure/angle over the much longer time frame. People seem to think working by hand is inaccurate. I have found the opposite to be true, it is precisely the ability to adapt by small increments during the process that allows me to achieve more accurate results.

Some argue that a CBN wheel is not necessary and I understand that view. On the other hand the ability to sharpen quickly, accurately by hand sort of makes or breaks my enjoyment and success rate with hand tools. I don't think sharpening is the place to pinch pennies. If I have to get out a Veritas jig, put it together, set it, find/change the camber wheel, count strokes... well the likely hood of that happening on a regular basis is much less than my turning on the grinder. For me it is a simple matter of time and required effort, neither of which I ever seem to have enough of.

You didn't even get to the biggest benefits of CBN:

1. The sharpness/hardness of the abrasive makes them more efficient than even highly friable Al-Oxide wheels, in the sense that they dissipate less waste heat per unit material volume removed.

2. Plated wheels like the ones D-Way sells are highly conductive, which means that a higher fraction of any waste heat that is generated is dissipated into the wheel rather than the workpiece. Taking (1) and (2) together I find that I can grind for >2X longer between "cooling dips" with CBN as compared to either the traditional white friable AlOx wheels or the newer Norton 3X seeded-gel ones. I haven't burnt anything since I switched over, for that matter.

3. They do much better with tough steels like HSS

I personally owe Derek big time for posting his article about the D-Way CBN wheels a while back

[Derek Cohen]

... Derek, I've read your sharpening pages and I'm intrigued by your CBN wheels. They cost less than a replacement Tormek wheel and potentially last longer. Did you consider fitting an 8-10" CBN wheel on your Tormek and running it at full speed without the water bath? Also, where on earth did you find a half-speed grinder? - even the heavy duty 10" and 12" grinders I can find are running at ~3000RPM

Hi Trevor

There is a 10" CBN wheel specifically for the Tormek. However I decided to go with the 8" dry grinder as it would remove steel more rapidly. Heat is not an issue with these wheels (you have to be very careless to overheat a blade). For comparison, the Tormek runs at 120 rpm and the 8" grinder at 1400 rpm. I still use the Tormek, but for selected blades. I can interchange between the two machines as they have the same tool rest.

Incidentally, with regards the Tormek, I only use it at the coarsest grit (220) as I view it to be a grinder and not a sharpening system.

A slow/half speed grinder is available in the States - Rikon sell one through Highland Woodworking ..

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/rikon-professional-low-speed-grinder.aspx

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I personally owe Derek big time for posting his article about the D-Way CBN wheels a while back

Patrick, one day I will remind you of that ..! :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I've just bought a Record Power 10" Wet Stone sharpening system, which is basically a cheaper Tormek. My priorities were quietness and accuracy, and its definitely quiet but not as accurate as I'd like regarding the jigs and tool rests. Grinding a chisel or plane iron is a slow process with this machine, but at least twice as fast as doing it by hand. You also get a hollow grind which is a huge advantage of grinding on wheel in my opinion: Once you've turned a flat bevel into a concave surface, all you need to do to hone is "click" it into place on a fine stone and take a few swipes. If you are using flat stones for grinding a chisel, yes you can save time by working on a secondary bevel only, but then you lose your large reference surface for using the chisel bevel-down. Hopefully I'm not starting another 50 page sharpening battle again.

I'm waiting on a "plane camber" jig for my machine, but I expect I will need to rough out cambers either by hand with a super coarse stone, or using the flat tool rest and doing as Patrick described (3); before the jig can be used. I plan to write a review of the machine here once I've played with it a lot more, as there is very little info on the web about it currently. Thankfully a lot of information on the Tormek system applies to it, and in the fact a lot of the jigs are compatible.

Derek, I've read your sharpening pages and I'm intrigued by your CBN wheels. They cost less than a replacement Tormek wheel and potentially last longer. Did you consider fitting an 8-10" CBN wheel on your Tormek and running it at full speed without the water bath? Also, where on earth did you find a half-speed grinder? - even the heavy duty 10" and 12" grinders I can find are running at ~3000RPM

Delta and Porter-Cable sell basically the same variable-speed 8" grinder: http://www.amazon.com/Delta-23-197-8-Inch-Variable-Grinder/dp/B00LHUWAFK (I use this one), http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-PCB575BG-Variable-Speed-Grinder/dp/B004Q0HGUC. There are a few others that also look like the same OEM model, which goes down to ~half speed.

I have both 8" and 10" CBN wheels, and run the 10" one on a Tormek. It isn't worth it IMO - The CBN wheels run relatively cool to begin with on a half-speed grinder like the Delta. As long as you take reasonable precautions (stop every so often and either wait for a few seconds or dip in water) you'll be fine. I keep my tools cool enough to touch during grinding, which means they aren't even remotely close to burning temperatures.

[Patrick Chase]

6. Hone, again with Eclipse guide. I personally set a tertiary bevel ~1 deg steeper than the secondary from (5) at this point, as advocated by Charlesworth and Brent Beach. Doing this makes the honing go very quickly

One other remark: It is possible to "ruler trick" the back of a radiused blade, but to do it you have to rotate the blade in the horizontal as you hone the back. The thing to keep in mind is that with the ruler trick the part of the edge furthest from the ruler will be the part you're working at any given moment. With a flat blade you generally keep the blade perpendicular to the ruler and work the entire edge at once (since it's all the same distance from the ruler). With a radiused edge you instead rotate the blade back and forth as you work to hone the entire edge.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Hopefully I'm not starting another 50 page sharpening battle again.


Fear not. To get anywhere need 50 pages you need to combine controversial topics. A post about the one inch thick all natural oil stone that gives you a better edge than the 25 mm thick artificial waterstone maybe. That would get you both imperial/metric and the sharpening angle.

Or you could be like Brian and post lots of pictures of yourself marking out mortises on your living room carpet while wearing a bathrobe. Those always seem to get a lot of attention.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hah! That had me rolling on the (carpeted) floor. :D

[Kees Heiden]

You guys always get me lusting after one of those cbn wheels. But I still get adequate service from my Norton blue stone, you know, the one that was all the rage before those cbn ones came along. So I am going to save myself a bunch of money, just waiting for the next newest thing. :D

[paul cottingham]

Fear not. To get anywhere need 50 pages you need to combine controversial topics. A post about the one inch thick all natural oil stone that gives you a better edge than the 25 mm thick artificial waterstone maybe. That would get you both imperial/metric and the sharpening angle.

Or you could be like Brian and post lots of pictures of yourself marking out mortises on your living room carpet while wearing a bathrobe. Those always seem to get a lot of attention.

damnit! Did i miss pictures of Brian in his bathrobe? Again?

[Mike Holbrook]

Here is a thread that also eventually worked it's way into CBN wheels, and covered the subject pretty thorougly:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?216921-Grinding-and-shaping-bevels

The other very helpful habit I started after studying the post above is hollow grinding. Yes, hollow grinding is another benefit of grinding with a CBN wheel. There are two things I find very helpful about hollow grinding. First the two edges, on either side of the hollow, allow one to sharpen accurately and easily by hand. The two edges keep the bevel at the correct angle. Since this method only requires the removal of small amounts of steel on the two edges of the hollow sharpening becomes much faster and it is much easier to be consistent. Derek covers hollow grinding well in the sharpening section of his site too.

[Brian Holcombe]

damnit! Did i miss pictures of Brian in his bathrobe? Again?

Of all of the directions I expected this thread to go...haha.

[Patrick Chase]

Here is a thread that also eventually worked it's way into CBN wheels, and covered the subject pretty thorougly:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?216921-Grinding-and-shaping-bevels

The other very helpful habit I started after studying the post above is hollow grinding. Yes, hollow grinding is another benefit of grinding with a CBN wheel. There are two things I find very helpful about hollow grinding. First the two edges, on either side of the hollow, allow one to sharpen accurately and easily by hand. The two edges keep the bevel at the correct angle. Since this method only requires the removal of small amounts of steel on the two edges of the hollow sharpening becomes much faster and it is much easier to be consistent. Derek covers hollow grinding well in the sharpening section of his site too.

There's also some misinformation in that thread... My favorite is the old trope about CBN being better than diamond because it isn't susceptible to carbon migration from abrasive->steel. That's true, but one minor detail was overlooked: Said migration only happens at temperatures in excess of 700C.

If you're doing serious grinding on HSS in a production environment then carburization will indeed be an issue (and that's why CBN wheels exist to begin with), but for occasional tool sharpening it doesn't matter. CBN is an excellent choice for us more because of its availability than anything else.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Patrick this makes total sense to me - carbon migration isn't a problem for diamond plate sharpening stones.