Hammer A3-31 arrived ... and fell off the truck

[Johannes Becker]

I finally decided I need an upgrade from my 6" rigid jointer I bought on craigslist. So I bought myself a Hammer A3-31 during the recent promotion and it was scheduled to arrive in time for Xmas. And it came really close to make it indeed. As I walked out of the house I could see the delivery driver starting to lower the gate. It gave a little jerk when almost down and chucked off the jointer. It fell off the gate onto its side. The crash wasn't even very loud (the driver was not too happy). We managed together to put it upright again and the crate looked still pretty good under the plastic (that is an impressive crating job i have to say).

I got Felder on the phone and the service manager directed me to unpack and what to look for. When I looked at the back it became apparent that the crate hadn't managed to protect the jointer fully. The back of the housing was dented and showed some cracks. So the Felder service manager told me to decline delivery and a few minutes later my new jointer was back on its way to Delaware. I have to say I was impressed by the responsiveness from Felder, it was really easy to get the right person on the phone within a minute and get advice.

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No it is back to waiting for the next shipment from Austria. I think next time I am going to warn the driver and give him a hand with unloading. I hope he won't get into trouble right before Xmas.

[Bill Adamsen]

Good lord ... well at least it wasn't double stacked.

[Ben Rivel]

OH WOW, Id DIE! Im so sorry you had to go through that! Dont worry though, I know first hand Felder/Hammer's customer service are awesome. They will take care of you! Youll have a new one on its way before you know it!

[Terry Hatfield]

Oh my. What a heartbreaking situation. Glad the it worked out but still. I'd be sick.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Sorry to hear about it but glad you were able to get a good response from Felder.

[Greg R Bradley]

The slope of that street is clearly visible in the first picture. It was foolish to even try a lift gate from that direction. It could have been even worse if it was on a pallet jack and it took off down the street!

OK, its delivered, please sign here, and then you can go catch it. I'll come back for the pallet jack later.

[Tom M King]

Like Forest Gump said.....

[Jamie Buxton]

So I'm wondering what happens to that broken jointer-planer. Does Hammer attempt to repair it and sell it? What condition do they sell it as -- used? salvage? buyer-beware? Or is all this too dodgey for their brand integrity, and they just chuck it into the dumpster?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Brutal... the thing managed to come all the way from austria, and at the last major step of its long journey.... this happens. Just brutal.

But sounds like it's going to work out. Just a bummer than you have to wait for another one.

[Ben Rivel]

So I'm wondering what happens to that broken jointer-planer. Does Hammer attempt to repair it and sell it? What condition do they sell it as -- used? salvage? buyer-beware? Or is all this too dodgey for their brand integrity, and they just chuck it into the dumpster?
They do list and sell used/demos/refurbed machines on their website for discounted prices so Id imagine it would get repaired and sold there.

[Peter Quinn]

Oh no. That hurts. Its a small problem in the grander scheme of life, sure is disappointing in the short run. Glad Felder was there with a quick response, makes it easier.

[eugene thomas]

Kind of curious about the I gave little jerk...

[Jamie Buxton]

Kind of curious about the I gave little jerk...

Probably autocorrect. Read "it" for "I", and the story makes much more sense.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Johan, I am feeling your pain.

[Jeff Duncan]

Last shop move I had a friend helping me with several awkward and difficult to move machines with his flatbed. He got to the new shop first and as I was driving up I saw him trying to unload the first machine by himself. I was immediately alarmed as it was a tricky machine to move…..a 6' tall Wysong vertical drill that must have weighed in around 800 lbs or so. As soon as he started backing the forklift I saw the drill teeter and then tip right off the forklift! Snapped it fully in half and well beyond repair. It was seriously foolish for him to move it on his own, and I know he felt terrible about it, but sometimes when people are in a rush they make really poor choices. Mine was not necessarily irreplaceable, but the odds of finding another one in as good condition for a reasonable amount of money are essentially nil. Glad that you'll eventually get your machine and hopefully the next unloading will go much smoother next time!

good luck,
JeffD

[mreza Salav]

Oh...I don't know I would be upset for not having my machine delivered or for such a waste of a great machine.

[C Scott McDonald]

Sorry about the Hammer.

Nice looking neighborhood though!

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I just wonder how that shipper treats yours stuff when you're NOT looking.

[Johannes Becker]

The street has a slight slope but it looks much worse on the picture. It has not been a problem before when unloading things. Well, that is until today I guess. The shipper was actually very decent. He was really sorry and did not look at all like somebody who would normally just abuse stuff.

I am not sure about the damage -- it may just be the covers and nothing serious. Felder certainly knows where to look for damage and can put it back into original condition. For me that is a different story. if it was not perfect I would just not be sure whether it is me or the machine.

[Len Rosenberg]

I had a similar experience with a Minimax FS41 Elite jointer/planer combo. I used a rigging company to pick it up from the local freight depot, got a call from them saying they refused to even touch it, it looked like it had been dropped off the truck, the shipping crate was in pieces, they refused delivery. A few emails with MiniMax and a brand new machine was on its way to me before the damaged one was even received back in Atlanta. Second time was the charm, delivered without a scratch. Can't beat service like that.

[Keith Weber]

A lot of those lift gates are poorly designed or worn out. I've rented lift gate trucks numerous times, and most of the time, the lift platform has a rear-sloping sag to it. My solution for tall items was to tie a rope to the handle on the one side of the truck box, loop the rope around the tall item, and then hang onto the other end with my left hand, as I stood on the platform and lowered it with my right hand. It just prevented those ever-so-tippy loads from going over when the lift gate moved abruptly (as when starting or stopping).

One day, when I showed up to pick up a truck, they said that they had a brand new truck for me. The lift gate was designed differently. It went down flat, but when it hit the ground, the mechanism tilted the platform to the ramped angle. On the way up, it first tilted the platform level, and then raised it. Brilliant! They should all be like those.

But, you get what you get on the day, so if the driver has a saggy, ramped lift gate, start by having him park so that the front of his truck is pointed downhill, and if it's a tippy item, consider throwing a safety rope around it with the person holding it standing in the back of the truck. I move a lot of heavy stuff. The most important thing to always remember is that if something weighing 1000's of pounds wants to fall over for whatever reason beyond your control, you stand back and let it fall over. I've seen too many people lose their head and try to stop a large mass from doing what it wants to do in the moment -- risking getting their relatively frail body crushed.

[Rod Sheridan]

So I'm wondering what happens to that broken jointer-planer. Does Hammer attempt to repair it and sell it? What condition do they sell it as -- used? salvage? buyer-beware? Or is all this too dodgey for their brand integrity, and they just chuck it into the dumpster?

Hi, with damage to the frame evident, it will most likely be scrapped.

The cost to strip everything off, inspect it all, order replacement parts and re-assemble it would cost far in excess of their cost for a new machine, not to mention the risk of missing a part that's damaged.

That one will be heading for recycling............Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

Hi, with damage to the frame evident, it will most likely be scrapped.

The cost to strip everything off, inspect it all, order replacement parts and re-assemble it would cost far in excess of their cost for a new machine, not to mention the risk of missing a part that's damaged.

That one will be heading for recycling............Regards, Rod.

This ^^^

From a vendor's perspective, the single most expensive part of the budget is labor. Unless it's something like a CNC, it goes to the scrappers. The profit margin on machinery at this price point is slim enough as it is and it's just not economically feasible to pay a tech to try and fix it and then have a sales guy try to sell it and make any sort of profit. I don't know how other vendors handle it but with SCM, the most important thing is finding a freight company who pays claims in a timely manner. They use FedEx commercial now and according my logistics folks, FedEx commercial pays all claims within 30 days, which is huge. So, in Len's case, SCM got paid on that smashed FS41 within a month. That is HUGE when your business is getting machines in and out the door.

I see the list of freight damaged machines SCM claims each year. You would be shocked at the number of not-inexpensive machines that go directly to the metal scrappers. Entire sliding table saws, big bandsaws, etc. No particular freight carrier is immune. You can get perfect deliveries for months through a certain terminal and than several damaged machines for no apparent reason. There are so many cogs in the wheel of what it takes to get a machine from the warehouse to the customer's site and all it takes is one guy on the shipper's side to make a bad decision about offloading (rare, in my experience) or to spear the crate with his forklift (more common), and there goes a machine.

Erik

[Frederick Skelly]

That's tragic and I'm sorry to hear it.

I'm glad to hear they took proper care of you. That's a good thing for folks to hear.

Fred

[Michael Koons]

This brings to mind a discussion I had back in the fall with the group about delivery of large tools to freight depots instead of on lift gate trucks to homes. There were Creekers who said they preferred the freight terminals to home delivery. Now I understand why.

[Pat Barry]

The slope of that street is clearly visible in the first picture. It was foolish to even try a lift gate from that direction. It could have been even worse if it was on a pallet jack and it took off down the street!

OK, its delivered, please sign here, and then you can go catch it. I'll come back for the pallet jack later.
Interesting observation. Notice the lift is significantly canted with respect to the road. No doubt the slope was the main issue, coupled with this top heavy equipment. Next time tell the driver to make sure the unit is strapped to the lift gate so it doesn't just fall off.

[mreza Salav]

I had a 24" bandsaw delivered with a liftgate. With the crate the machine was almost 8' tall. The street didn't have a slope but the slope of the gate was enough that worried me it would tip once the gate reaches the ground. I requested the driver to let me add a couple of 2x6 under the end of the gate to off-set the slope. He listened to me and it worked fine at the end. Sometimes people who do a job are not thinking through the process as you would expect them to do.

[Rod Sheridan]

This brings to mind a discussion I had back in the fall with the group about delivery of large tools to freight depots instead of on lift gate trucks to homes. There were Creekers who said they preferred the freight terminals to home delivery. Now I understand why.

Hi Michael, that's why I like home delivery. Felder were responsible for putting it in my garage.

If it was tweaked, they were responsible.

If I had picked it up at their location, I would be responsible..........Regards, Rod.

[keith wootton]

super bummer. i had a similar problem last year when a new 16" j/p fell over before it got to the freight terminal and my pickup. shipper had put a tilt-watch indicator and a good thing, because crate looked pretty good. fed ex had shoved a broken up pallet under it and didn't say a word "but there's your shipment, take it". didnt understand well that i should have left it there and refused it. went thru 11 weeks of hell before fed ex refused to pay claim, stating crate wasn't strong enough. falling on side knocked motors out of alignment with drive chain (bent mounts). seller was very good, and fed ex equally bad, but they took it back to seller after i recrated it very well, and reached some agreement. i got a check for full amount from seller. i had negotiated a deal on a used felder ad 741 with the help of west coast felder (thanks fergus) to fill the empty spot in my shop. i had sold old planer and jointer to make room. freight inspector who came out (with 93 year old mother with dementia who wandered off twice) wanted me to bend up mounts worse and do other additional damage because damage didn't show up well on camera. i refused. and, the lift gate failed on pick up fed ex truck as j/p was going back. i ended up helping fed ex secure lift gate to truck and cleaned up oil. dispacher wanted driver to pick up another shipment on the way back to the terminal, and didn't understand that lift gate was ratchet strapped to back of truck. and it was 105 that day!

[Scott Allen27]

Erik,
I would think there would be a good opportunity in that for you guys. I know there would be Creekers lined up to take advantage of opportunities like that.
I believe I actually got one of those machines, a CU300 that was refused delivery - and I got a great deal on it. The machine required a little adjustment, had a few broken parts but it is an incredible machine that I haven't had any problems with after adjustment.

Why not sell those machines online with limited/no warranty and let DIY guys take a chance on them, instead of sending them to the scrappers. I think everyone wins in that scenario.



This ^^^

From a vendor's perspective, the single most expensive part of the budget is labor. Unless it's something like a CNC, it goes to the scrappers. The profit margin on machinery at this price point is slim enough as it is and it's just not economically feasible to pay a tech to try and fix it and then have a sales guy try to sell it and make any sort of profit. I don't know how other vendors handle it but with SCM, the most important thing is finding a freight company who pays claims in a timely manner. They use FedEx commercial now and according my logistics folks, FedEx commercial pays all claims within 30 days, which is huge. So, in Len's case, SCM got paid on that smashed FS41 within a month. That is HUGE when your business is getting machines in and out the door.

I see the list of freight damaged machines SCM claims each year. You would be shocked at the number of not-inexpensive machines that go directly to the metal scrappers. Entire sliding table saws, big bandsaws, etc. No particular freight carrier is immune. You can get perfect deliveries for months through a certain terminal and than several damaged machines for no apparent reason. There are so many cogs in the wheel of what it takes to get a machine from the warehouse to the customer's site and all it takes is one guy on the shipper's side to make a bad decision about offloading (rare, in my experience) or to spear the crate with his forklift (more common), and there goes a machine.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

Scott, I am able to (and sometines do) re-sell machines that show up and "look" like they are damaged but often, it's just the crate or just some minor parts. Sounds like that was the case with yours. As for anything more significant, I don't have time. We tried it. Each year, SCM would give me a list of damaged or as-is machine and what I can sell them for. Believing that folks would want these great deals, I spent all sorts of time on the phone, chasing guys around. In my experience, though, the cheaper the machine, the the harder it is to sell. For example, I got a list of freight-damaged sliders once and the prices were great, Below cost, a bargain for the right customer. But every guy who called me back seemed to want an album of digital photos of each particular machine (which is imposssible to provide...), a list of exactly what spare parts were needed to repair it (again, impossible to provide), and then "time to think about it". Meanwhile, December is my busiest sales month of the year ans these guys wanted me to talk them into these smashed/as-is machines. Maybe other sales guys have time for that but I never seem to. It's probably not what some customers want to hear but if I have half a dozen voice mails from guys wanting to buy new sliders and half a dozen from guys interested in as-is machines, guess who I'm calling?

The thing customers have to keep in mind is that with companies that operate an inventory-forward business model (selling stock on hand, as opposed to taking money for future orders), the biggest priority is getting iron out the door. With as much volume as SCM has on hand, they want to avoid paying taxes on as much unsold inventory at the EOY as possible so, from a business perspective, scrapping or donating damaged stock actually makes more sense than having a fire sale and hoping someone buys it. If that makes sense.

Erik

[Scott Allen27]

Erik,
I understand, and some guys don't mind the risk, while some would rather have the piece of mind buying new.
I personally would probably not have ended up with a combo machine had it not been for the machine Sam sold me. I just couldn't justify the cost of a new one, even the Lab (which I briefly considered).
I would have ended up with a J/P combo (FS 30 Classic) that I am sure I would have been happy with, even though I wanted a combo. So it was a great fit for me and I am sure there are other guys out there in the same boat.

Also, now that I have the machine (which I love), and because of the great experience I had dealing with you guys, when it comes time to upgrade my bandsaw either this year or next, you can bet it will be the S400 or S500.
So yea, maybe it is more work for the sales team (which I get), but you very well may end up creating a repeat customer in the process.

Having said that, I understand completely that all things being equal, you focus on selling new machines. That is to be expected. I just find it interesting that more customers wouldn't JUMP on a chance to grab a slider or combo for possibly half (or less) of retail. I find that amazing in itself.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Scott,

I am one who most likely won't buy anything but new, undamaged with a full factory warrantee.

For over 40 years I repaired stuff from radar used to land aircraft in bad weather while in the US Navy to 34 years of installing and maintaining CT and MR scanners. When I buy a new machine it isn't worth it to me to save money and yet have that little nagging doubt in the back of my mind that there could be a potential problem. It's just not worth it to me.

If after I have used a tool for a reasonable length of time, I have to repair it....so what? I expect that.

It is like so many things in life......subjective.....what's right for me may not be right for you vice versa........there is no right or wrong......it's subjective.....it's in the eye of the beholder.

Regularly you see people who come to the Creek to complain about the purchase they made.....used....or lesser quality lower priced and they have a problem. Too often, from where I look at the situation, they let price be their main priority when buying a tool. I am not bashing those who do this. I don't have an unlimited budget and I always balance potential use, price with what my budget can afford. But, I often pass up what others might deem a great deal because it doesn't meet my criteria.

Myself.....I am very hesitant to buy damaged tools. But that's me.....

[Keith Hankins]

yep sucks. I had a TS delivered that was damaged and sent that sucker back once you accpet it it's yours! They will make it right and thats what insurance is for! Bummer though it being Christmas and all

[glenn bradley]

Ouch! I'm sorry that happened. On the upside, you have got a great new avatar:

327754

[Frederick Skelly]

On the upside, you have got a great new avatar:

327754

Oooph, sputter, gasp, spit - coffee all over the monitor again. That was too funny Glenn.

[John Sanford]

The thing customers have to keep in mind is that with companies that operate an inventory-forward business model (selling stock on hand, as opposed to taking money for future orders), the biggest priority is getting iron out the door. With as much volume as SCM has on hand, they want to avoid paying taxes on as much unsold inventory at the EOY as possible so, from a business perspective, scrapping or donating damaged stock actually makes more sense than having a fire sale and hoping someone buys it. If that makes sense.

Erik

it sounds like there may be a good opportunity for a "separate" company to be created that is the scrapper, who then breaks the machines down for the parts. Then next time y'all need a part that's not in stock, you don't have to call Italy, you can just call the faux-scrapper.

[Rich Riddle]

I don't help unload things like that because blame can be shifted to you. If you pay for delivery, it's up to the delivery company to employ enough people to safely place it on the ground.

[Keith Weber]

Another thing you have to consider is that by supplying a market of discount damaged tools, a company can generate a decline in the sales of new machines. A customer without an option of saving money will be forced to either buy a new one, or do without. Sure, they can buy a used one from an individual, but often that individual was looking for an upgrade and end up buying a new replacement anyway. It's all basic supply and demand. Keep the supply of available machines low, and the demand (and hence, price and revenues) will go up. Look at companies like Bose, Festool, Stihl, etc... They work hard at preventing anybody from discounting their brand. If you want one, you pay full price. Those companies do quite well.

You might say, "yeah, well I was never going to buy one if my only option was full price." Fair enough, but companies are looking for revenues, and the frugal woodworker isn't worth their time.

[Curt Harms]

.................................................. ........
You might say, "yeah, well I was never going to buy one if my only option was full price." Fair enough, but companies are looking for revenues, and the frugal woodworker isn't worth their time.

And along come Grizzly, Rikon, Jet et. al. to fill that market niche. Most people get what they want, companies make enough $$ to make it worth their while, everybody wins.

[John Schweikert]

Well, in the case of Festool, they do sell used gear in a large near annual sale of items which were returned in the 30 day period. People can can save 20-40% on the exact same tools with 1 yr warranty instead of full price with 3 yr warranty. The sale goes quickly since there is limited supply.



Another thing you have to consider is that by supplying a market of discount damaged tools, a company can generate a decline in the sales of new machines. A customer without an option of saving money will be forced to either buy a new one, or do without. Sure, they can buy a used one from an individual, but often that individual was looking for an upgrade and end up buying a new replacement anyway. It's all basic supply and demand. Keep the supply of available machines low, and the demand (and hence, price and revenues) will go up. Look at companies like Bose, Festool, Stihl, etc... They work hard at preventing anybody from discounting their brand. If you want one, you pay full price. Those companies do quite well.

You might say, "yeah, well I was never going to buy one if my only option was full price." Fair enough, but companies are looking for revenues, and the frugal woodworker isn't worth their time.

[Erik Loza]

...I just find it interesting that more customers wouldn't JUMP on a chance to grab a slider or combo for possibly half (or less) of retail. I find that amazing in itself.

I thought so as well, which is why I (for a time) worked aggressively to offer these units but my experience has been that guys won't buy them sight-unseen. It might be different if SCM Group had a tent sale or something like that but in my experience, they're just too much work to move.


it sounds like there may be a good opportunity for a "separate" company to be created that is the scrapper, who then breaks the machines down for the parts. Then next time y'all need a part that's not in stock, you don't have to call Italy, you can just call the faux-scrapper.

Actually, there is. I won't mention the name here but there is a machinery dealer that does buy a large quantity of damaged stock from SCM Group each year. They pay a fraction of the price for new and then I guess, try to R&R and resell those units. Personally, I don't know if they do much better than me: I have yet to run up against one of my "own" machines from them in all these years. Maybe they just want them for the parts? Not really sure. Anyone could buy these machines as these guys do, but you need to take a quantity of them, not just one-sey, two-sey.


Another thing you have to consider is that by supplying a market of discount damaged tools, a company can generate a decline in the sales of new machines...

We saw this during and after the recession. So many shops going out of business that the market got flooded with used machinery at pennies on the dollar and nobody was buying new. That inventory has pretty much dried up, however. I am taking lots of calls for new stuff rather than "Got any used?". The market is on the upswing and as Ken pointed out, if guys have the money, they want new, due to the warranty, insured delivery, etc. At least in my experience.

Erik

[Tim McCarthy]

I would not feel a bit sorry for the driver. It was totally his fault! Common sense if not so common these days.