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Frank Pellow
09-05-2005, 9:54 AM
You may recall that last year I contemplated writing a book about the planning and construction of my new workshop.

I decided against doing so but I thought that my notes and photos might still prove interesting to some folks. So, last spring, I organized them into a journal that I entitled:


Planning, Building, and Equipping Frank Pellow's Workshop

(with the advice of my friends at Saw Mill Creek)

The journal is 135 pages long.

I corresponded with Aaron at that time and he said that he thought it would probably be possible to post the journal as an "article" on Saw Mill Creek. I did send a disk containing the material to him but I guess that Aaron must have encountered some difficulties with what I sent him because the article has not appeared.

I am seriously thinking about creating my own web site and placing the journal as well as a lot of other things on that site. But, that will not likely happen until the winter.

In the meantime, if anyone would like a CD containing the journal in both WORD and HTML formats, just send me your physical address. I will mail a CD to you for free.

There are two files and one folder on the CD. They are called:
1) Frank's Workshop Construction Journal -Condensed Version.doc

2) Frank's Workshop Construction Journal -Condensed Version.htm

3) Frank's Workshop Construction Journal -Condensed Version_files


1) Is my journal in Micrsoft Word format

2) Is my journal in HTML format and is suitable for use with a browser

3) Is a folder with pictures that are embedded when using 2.

Tim Morton
09-05-2005, 10:07 AM
Is it possible to put the file on an FTP site for download?

Frank Pellow
09-06-2005, 7:12 AM
Tim, the only FTP sites that I have ever used were ones set up by IBM and by Microsoft when I worked for those companies. I am unaware of any public FTP sites which I could use for this purpose. Can you suggest one or more?

Elliott Cameron
09-06-2005, 8:32 AM
Well Top o' the Mornin' to you Mr. Frank.
Elliott Cameron here from FL. I would thoroughly enjoy reading your shop making adventure. Anytime someone feels proud enough to share their accomplishments... I will be standing in line with an open ear. It makes me feel good that people work hard to accomplish what they dream about.
I will PM you my address but you 'gotta promise to not sell it to some Canadian data base. Hahaha
BTW, I used to work in TO from '90 to 93' over at Woodbine Racecourse in Etobicoke. That is a pretty nice BIG city,TO is. I really enjoyed going to baseball games in that Sky-Dome. The gentleman I was up there with,Mark Casse, his sister-in-law at the time was married to a man named Len who worked in the PR dept for the Jays and gave me ALOT of FREE tickets during those 3 years . I have good memories from there like meeting Dave Winfield , John (Mr. Personality) Olerud
and Roberto Alomar( before he became a jerk) and Juan Guzman.
Anyway, enough of my babbling. I will send you my address ASAP.

Elliott FLA....USA

Steve Aiken
09-07-2005, 12:04 PM
I'm in, Frank. I'll PM you.


Steve

Jim Stastny
09-07-2005, 7:13 PM
Frank,
Count me in. I'll send my address.

Gotta love our Canadian neighbors :D

Thanks,

Frank Pellow
09-07-2005, 7:43 PM
Frank,
Count me in. I'll send my address.

Gotta love our Canadian neighbors :D

Thanks,
Thanks Jim, I hope that you find it helpful.

By the way, in Canada, the word is spelled "neighbours". :D

Bernie Weishapl
09-07-2005, 8:13 PM
PM'd you with address this time. Thanks a lot.
Bernie

Ron Kanter
09-07-2005, 9:18 PM
Sounds like a great read. I'll send my address.
Thanks in advance.
Ron

Frank Chaffee
09-07-2005, 11:28 PM
Frank,
Both my current and former ISPs offer ftp sites to subscribers. A program that I used years ago was, if memory serves me, ws_ftp, but i am sure that others are also readily available.
Frank

Bob Winkler
09-08-2005, 7:25 AM
Count me in also- sent you a PM.

Bob

John A. Williams
09-08-2005, 9:41 AM
I'm looking forward to your CD Frank, thanks again!
John

Andy Hoyt
09-14-2005, 7:14 PM
Frank - What a slide show! And what a shop! Nicely done and thanks very much. I'll hang onto the disk unless you'd like it back, or I could send it on to the next guy on your list to save you a couple of sheckles. Advise as warranted. Thanks again.

Frank Pellow
09-14-2005, 10:26 PM
Frank - What a slide show! And what a shop! Nicely done and thanks very much. I'll hang onto the disk unless you'd like it back, or I could send it on to the next guy on your list to save you a couple of sheckles. Advise as warranted. Thanks again.
Andy, I am happy :) that you enjoyed the journal and pictures. Please keep the CD.

Charlie Plesums
09-15-2005, 12:35 AM
Frank, I recommend the web site route. Check my web site for the quality of service and possibilities, and it only costs about US$5 per month. I get lots of interesting queries and comments from it.

John Cavanaugh
09-15-2005, 3:43 AM
Hey I really like Andy's idea.

If you seed a half a dozen or so cd's into the community, then whoever gets them can send them to another person. That would alleviate you from paying the shipping for all of them.

Ill be more than willing to send it along to the next creeker if you send me one.

--
John Cavanaugh

Frank Pellow
09-15-2005, 4:07 AM
Frank, I recommend the web site route. Check my web site for the quality of service and possibilities, and it only costs about US$5 per month. I get lots of interesting queries and comments from it.
Thanks Charlie. I definately plan to do that some day. But, that day is a little while away.

Frank Pellow
09-15-2005, 4:13 AM
Hey I really like Andy's idea.

If you seed a half a dozen or so cd's into the community, then whoever gets them can send them to another person. That would alleviate you from paying the shipping for all of them.

Ill be more than willing to send it along to the next creeker if you send me one.

--
John Cavanaugh
John, it would be great if more than one person looked at and enjoyed each one of my CDs.

But, CDS cost very little to create and to mail. I figure it is less than the cost of a cup of coffee, and I certainly would be happy treat any fellow Saw Mill Creeker to a cup of coffee.

Aaron Koehl
09-15-2005, 9:23 AM
I really like the way you put that!

Dan Oelke
09-15-2005, 1:37 PM
I got the CD from Frank yesterday - but the postal service in their utmost care decided to break it. :(:(:(

Frank - I hate to ask you to send me another copy.... Do you have a problem with someone (or yourself) ftp'ing a copy to me????

If not - I have a directory already set up
server: ftp.oelke.com
username: pellow@oelke.com
password: pellow

Yes - the username has an "@" symbol in the middle of it. That makes it hard to work with IE - but this URL will work for Firefox.
ftp://pellow@oelke.com:pellow@ftp.oelke.com/ (edit: funny - the url got mangled with a smiley - but the link still works)

For those browsing this thread in the future - after I get a copy, the account will be deleted so it can't be abused.

Jim dePrado
09-15-2005, 2:49 PM
You may recall that last year I contemplated writing a book about the planning and construction of my new workshop.

I decided against doing so but I thought that my notes and photos might still prove interesting to some folks. So, last spring, I organized them into a journal that I entitled:


Planning, Building, and Equipping Frank Pellow's Workshop

(with the advice of my friends at Saw Mill Creek)

The journal is 135 pages long.

I corresponded with Aaron at that time and he said that he thought it would probably be possible to post the journal as an "article" on Saw Mill Creek. I did send a disk containing the material to him but I guess that Aaron must have encountered some difficulties with what I sent him because the article has not appeared.

I am seriously thinking about creating my own web site and placing the journal as well as a lot of other things on that site. But, that will not likely happen until the winter.

In the meantime, if anyone would like a CD containing the journal in both WORD and HTML formats, just send me your physical address. I will mail a CD to you for free.

Frank,

I just got the CD in the mail and although I haven't had time to read it yet, it looks awesome. I am looking forward to sitting down and reading it this weekend. As, you asked I will send any comments good or bad (I can't imagine any bad ones though).

Thanks again,

Jim

Les Spencer
09-15-2005, 5:11 PM
Frank,

You're a man with a good heart and alot to share. I will PM my address to you.

Thanks,

Frank Pellow
09-15-2005, 8:15 PM
I got the CD from Frank yesterday - but the postal service in their utmost care decided to break it. :(:(:(

Frank - I hate to ask you to send me another copy.... Do you have a problem with someone (or yourself) ftp'ing a copy to me????

If not - I have a directory already set up
server: ftp.oelke.com
username: pellow@oelke.com
password: pellow

Yes - the username has an "@" symbol in the middle of it. That makes it hard to work with IE - but this URL will work for Firefox.
ftp://pellow@oelke.com:pellow@ftp.oelke.com/ (edit: funny - the url got mangled with a smiley - but the link still works)

For those browsing this thread in the future - after I get a copy, the account will be deleted so it can't be abused.
I am sorry that the CD arrived damaged, but I am not really surprised. As you saw Dan , the envelope that I sent the CD in did not have much extra protection. This makes the mailing more affordable for me but more risky as well. I have mailed about 50 CD's so far and this is the first one that has been reported arriving broken.

I will mail another CD rather than FTPing the document.

Frank Pellow
10-03-2005, 8:59 PM
This thread now has a spin off thread that just got launched in the Off Topic form.. Here is a link: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24814

By the way, if you did not request a CD earlier but would like one, I am still fileding requests and mailing CDs.

Frank Pellow
10-14-2005, 7:32 AM
Yesterday in the mail, I recieved a wonderful surprise. Larry Olsen had read my Workshop journal and he enjoyed it so much that he sent me a splated oak pen that he made.

Larry pointed out the many similarities between a shop he built about 10 years ago and mine and enjoyed hearing about them. Most of all, I enjoy Larry's generosity. The pen that he sent is the most suitable one that I have ever owned -I like the look, the size, the material, the weight, the feel, and (German made) ceramic ball point.

By the way, it's not too late to request a CD. I sent out the 76th one yesterday.

Tommy Curtiss
10-14-2005, 8:43 AM
I haven't posted much here at the "Creek" because I am building my new shop with living quarters out in Brock TX,(out here we call them Barn-do-miniums) a place to work and live while we are building our new house. I would be VERY proud to have one of your works if you don't mind.
By the way,I have been reading a lot of posts here in the last month or so,,What a nice place here at the "Creek" no one cuts anyone down about questions or advice, nothing but nice things to say and sound advice to give,,and I am so sorry I can't make the BBQ this year,but next year it will be a must for sure,,
And yes,,now that I have exsposed myself,I am sure the "pic police" are on my trail,,they are coming,just got to get the quarters livable before I finish the inside of the shop,,,,keep up the good work,,,Tommy in Granbury, on the way to Brock TX:)

Frank Pellow
10-14-2005, 8:06 PM
A CD is now in the mail for you Tommy.

I am glad that you are enjoying Saw Mill Creek and would be interested in seeing pictures of your temporary-house/shop. I think that it is great that someone should build their shop first. :)

John Bailey
10-14-2005, 8:35 PM
Frank,

I followed your threads when you were building your shop. It was very interesting as I am building mine now. It would be interesting to see some pictures of it with some projects being worked on. I would be interested in your CD. I'll PM my address. Thanks for this very generous offer.

John

Frank Pellow
10-14-2005, 8:39 PM
Frank,

I followed your threads when you were building your shop. It was very interesting as I am building mine now. It would be interesting to see some pictures of it with some projects being worked on. I would be interested in your CD. I'll PM my address. Thanks for this very generous offer.

John
John, I am following your progress as well (I love the diagonal wood on the exterior) and will be more than happy to send you a CD.

Jules Dominguez
10-14-2005, 9:52 PM
Frank, I'd love to have a a copy of your journal. I'm in the process of moving most of my woodworking stuff from two small rooms to one much larger one in my basement and I'm sure I can profit by your experience. Will PM my address.

Daniel Fisher
10-14-2005, 9:58 PM
Frank,
I finally had time to look at your CD. I think it is remarkable that you put together the CD, let alone the shop. Both are excellant. It will be very helpful to me as I try to organize my shop over the next few months.

Thank you again,
Dan

Paul Olson
10-15-2005, 4:16 AM
Hi Frank, I'm a new member here, and just starting to set up a shop. I have very limited space (a 1 car garage, 11x19, and the car has to fit in there too!) and experience, so I can use all the help I can get trying to put this together. Thanks for the generous offer!!! I will PM my address.

Thanks,
Paul

Frank Pellow
10-15-2005, 7:22 AM
Hi Frank, I'm a new member here, and just starting to set up a shop. I have very limited space (a 1 car garage, 11x19, and the car has to fit in there too!) and experience, so I can use all the help I can get trying to put this together. Thanks for the generous offer!!! I will PM my address.

Thanks,
Paul
Welcome to Saw Mill Creek Paul!

I will mail a CD to you later today and, even thugh my shop building was quite different than a 1 car (shared) garage I hope that my journal will give you some ideas.

John Hart
10-15-2005, 8:00 AM
I didn't see this until today Frank! I'd love a copy of your CD. I'd be happy to create a nice section in Do-it-myself.com (my do-it-yourselfer website). It would look good in there!:) I'll send you a PM with my address.

Joe Blankshain
10-15-2005, 10:27 AM
Frank,

Thanks for your generosity! PM is on the way

Frank Pellow
10-16-2005, 11:18 AM
I have received questions from a couple of folks about the contents of the CD. So, I modified the first post in this thread to outline the contents. I will also list them here.

There are two files and one folder on the CD. They are called:
1) Frank's Workshop Construction Journal -Condensed Version.doc

2) Frank's Workshop Construction Journal -Condensed Version.htm

3) Frank's Workshop Construction Journal -Condensed Version_files


1) Is my journal in Micrsoft Word format

2) Is my journal in HTML format and is suitable for use with a browser

3) Is a folder with pictures that are embedded when using 2.

Fred Voorhees
10-22-2005, 4:48 PM
Frank, it has been very dreary and damp and rainy here in New Jersey today (Sat) and it was a perfect time to sit back at the computer and browse through your CD detailing (very detailed!!!) the planning and execution of the building process of your work shop. Great job on the shop and equally so on the CD. Reminds me of the planning and building of my shop. Though I actually had the mason work and framing outsourced, everything else was done by myself and I can say and probably get confirmation from you that, no matter what the obstacle and the hurdles, and the length of time it took to accomplish, it was all worth it now that we are in our shops and enjoying the fruits of our labors.

Randy Moore
10-22-2005, 7:15 PM
Frank is it too late to request your CD? If it isn't my address will be PM'ed to you. I just saw this today, so sorry if I am bothering you with this request.:o

I think it is remarkable that you built your own shop AND took the time to record everything about the project. With me I would have been in a hurry to get it up so that I could use it and not just dream about it.

Thank you

Randy

David Klug
10-22-2005, 7:31 PM
Hey Frank a belated thank you for the CD that you sent me awhile back. I've gotten through most of it. There's a lot to look at and it looks like your shop is really well laid out. You're going to have a lot of fun in it.

DK

Frank Pellow
10-23-2005, 8:30 AM
Fred and David: I am glad you enjoyed the journal. Thanks for the compliment.

Randy (and anyone else): It is certainly not too late to request a CD. Just send me a private message with your mailing address.

Kelly C. Hanna
10-23-2005, 10:19 AM
Wow...what a nice thing to do Frank! I would love to have one and will PM my address immediately! I really enjoyed your installments here at SMC.

Thanks very much for offering this to us. I am positive we can all benefit in many ways from your experience!

Fred Voorhees
10-23-2005, 11:00 AM
Oh yeah Frank, I almost forgot. You seem like one whale of a "Pop-Pop"!;)

Frank Pellow
10-23-2005, 11:08 AM
Oh yeah Frank, I almost forgot. You seem like one whale of a "Pop-Pop"!;)
Fred, is a Pop-Pop the same as a Dad-Dad?

Gary Herrmann
10-23-2005, 11:56 AM
Frank, I finally got to review your CD - sorry it took so long. It is incredibly detailed. Altho, if I ever do this, I don't know that I'd include a picture of a broken key... ;) But it does fit in to the style of the narrative.

That said, I really like the picture of you and Ethan sawing that board. My 5 yr old prefers to hammer nails.

Well done. I'm going to hang on to it and refer to it when I get ready to build my shop.

Marc Langille
10-23-2005, 12:51 PM
Hi Frank,

Obviously I am a newer member - can I still take you up on the offer of the journal, etc. on CD? :confused:

What's the total file size on the CD? Let me know if you'd like to host the files somewhere - I can setup a directory on our webserver. We have about 100+ MB of free space left. :o

Cheers,
Marc

Rob Blaustein
10-23-2005, 12:57 PM
Frank,
The CD arrived two days ago intact. I've been looking it over and I'll echo what others have said: it's great! Thanks again for putting it together and making it available.
Rob

Frank Pellow
10-23-2005, 3:20 PM
Hi Frank,

Obviously I am a newer member - can I still take you up on the offer of the journal, etc. on CD? :confused:

What's the total file size on the CD? Let me know if you'd like to host the files somewhere - I can setup a directory on our webserver. We have about 100+ MB of free space left. :o

Cheers,
Marc
Marc, it is not too late. Just send me your address and I will send you a CD.

The file size of all files on the CD is about 60 megabytes.

I appreciate the offer of a spot to put a downloadable copy of the document but, at least for now, I will decline. As it stands, I have a record of everyone that I have given acopy to and I kind of like it that way. I do plan to get my own web site later this year and I expect to put the document there.

Marc Langille
10-23-2005, 4:12 PM
Hi Frank,

Thank you - sent you an e-mail....

Thanks!
Marc

John Bailey
10-23-2005, 4:44 PM
Frank,

Got your CD and it is fantastic. Very inspirational for someone like me who is in the process of building a shop. It's good to see there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks, John

Paul Olson
10-23-2005, 6:58 PM
Hi Frank,
Thanks for sending the CD, I enjoyed reading it. I think it will help people to understand how much time, work, and money it takes to build a shop. Your journal is very easy to read, the CD was here when I got home last night, and I just finished reading it. I would be interested to hear how the layout is working for you after you have used it for a while.

Thanks, Paul

Lynn Kasdorf
10-23-2005, 8:06 PM
Frank- if your stuff is less than 30 meg, you can use the yahoo briefcase:

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc//home

Free storage indefinitely.

Tom Hamilton
10-23-2005, 9:10 PM
Hi Frank:

Between ordering your shop CD and it's arrival we had a hurricane drill and a MLCS playoff.

Now that the Astro's are in the WS, I have time to thank you for the CD, complement you on it's professionalism and thoroughness, and recommend it to all the Creekers.

That may be be good news-bad news for you!

Thanks for mailing the CD, I've enjoyed viewed it and the offer is still open when you are in Houston for the beverage of your choice, on me! :D


Best regards, TJH

Frank Pellow
10-24-2005, 7:29 AM
Kelly, I remember your comments on my SMC installments and I really appreciated the "cheerleading" of you and some other SMC members. A CD is on the way to you.

Gary, yes the key story does fit in. Ethan can now do very basic sawing, hammering if I start the nail, and both inserting screws (Robertson of course) into pre-drilled holes and removing screws if they are not too tight.

Rob, thank you.

John, "fantastic and inspirational" you say. That is high praise indeed and coming from you, in particular, I am very gratified.

Paul, I am glad that you found the journal easy to read. I have fiddled around with the layout a bit (thanks to all my mobile bases), but the layout appears to be working well.

Tom, thanks for the compliment and the recommendation. I can still afford to send out more CDs so it is good news.

Kelly C. Hanna
10-24-2005, 7:49 AM
Thanks Frank! I can't wait to read it!!

William Lewis
10-31-2005, 1:29 PM
I"am new here and going through threads and came across this one. Would like to get a cd if they are still availiable. Will pm you with my address.

Thank-you
William Lewis

Gerry Rhodes
10-31-2005, 3:03 PM
A generous offer indeed. Your experiences could help me when I move from a basement workshop to a building I'm starting in two months. I'll PM you my address.

Thanks.

Frank Pellow
11-10-2005, 10:00 PM
Within the last week a few noteworthy things happened in relation to my Planning/Building/Equipping workshop journal.

(1) I distributed the 100th copy of the journal. :) It went to my friend Jim Melton of Sandy Utah (Jim is not a member of Saw Mill Creek).

(2) One Saw Mill Creek member (Bill Ryall) actually completely changed the plans for his shop based upon what they read in the journal. :) Bill said that I could post his message in this thread, so here it is:


Thank you very, very much! I printed and bound the word document, and have read it through completely twice. I followed along somewhat when you were originally posting, but didn't absorb it completely, as I had a shop at the time. I have recently relocated, and have to build a new shop.

At this point, I don’t know whether to thank you or cuss you... :-)

I have completely tossed my original plans, and started from scratch, thanks to your experiences. I am using your ideas for poured posts, rather than a full frost footing, poured slab, then wood floor. I had not thought of that. That idea alone is saving me a bunch of $$$. I am also fiddling with your idea of a non-square building to gain more space. I have to fit the shop in a tight space, and wasn't able to get the desired floor space in a square or rectangular building.

I really like how you presented everything on the CD, laying out the thought processes, and the changes as they developed. The pictures really help as well, as it makes visualizing and understanding things so much easier.

I really enjoyed the read, and find myself referring back to it as I work on my plans.

Thanks again.

Bill Ryall
(3) I received a rejection letter from Taunton Press. :( I had sent the journal to them suggesting that certain aspects of it might be of interest, particularly to the annual Tools and Shops issue of Fine Woodworking and offering to re-write any material that they thought would work for them. Well, it turns out that I have no re-writing to do.


By the way, the journal is still available. Each time this thread has popped to the top of the General Woodworking forum I have received no fewer than 6 requests (and one occasion 13 requests) for a copy. So, please keep the requeast comming.

Rick de Roque
11-10-2005, 10:50 PM
I sent a PM.
Thanks,
Rick

Kelly C. Hanna
11-11-2005, 6:57 AM
Thanks Frank for sending the CD. I can't wait to dive in and read the journal...gonna try and do that Sunday. Congrats on the Taunton Press deal...can't wait to see an article on your shop.

I have redone the plans for my backyard by moving the proposed carport to the other side of the yard. Before I add my addition #1, I'll be going through your journal in case there's anything I forgot.

By moving the carport, I'll have 65x20 feet of room for future shop expansion...:D:D:D

Thanks again Frank!

Frank Pellow
11-11-2005, 2:01 PM
Thanks Frank for sending the CD. I can't wait to dive in and read the journal...gonna try and do that Sunday. Congrats on the Taunton Press deal...can't wait to see an article on your shop.

...

Thanks again Frank!
Hey Kelly, you must have really speed read my note. :rolleyes: There is no Taunton Press deal. :(

Frank Pellow
11-11-2005, 2:04 PM
Thanks Frank for sending the CD. I can't wait to dive in and read the journal...gonna try and do that Sunday. Congrats on the Taunton Press deal...can't wait to see an article on your shop.

...

Thanks again Frank!
Hey Kelly, you must have really speed read my note. :rolleyes: There is no Taunton Press deal. :(

James Ayars
11-11-2005, 3:52 PM
Frank,
Just sent you a pm. Many thanks for your generousity.
James

Garry Smith
11-11-2005, 4:14 PM
Hello Frank,
If it would help, I would be happy to give you some space on my website.
I have lots of room. Just let me know
www.superwoodworks.com
Garry

Chris Curry
01-04-2006, 2:15 AM
Frank: There doesn't seem to have been much action with the CD since Remembrance Day. I would like to remedy that - But, I do recall an open invite to a personal viewing of the shop from your weekly progress reports. I need to know how you like your Timmy's and maybe we could arrange a mutually convenient time when I could come to the city to have a look see and pick up the CD.
Thanks eh! Chris

Norm Belleville
01-04-2006, 10:36 AM
Frank, I'm new to this forum and would be very intersted in your CD since I will be building a workshop this coming spring. Althought the size I'm looking at will be in the 16x24 range (limited by yard space) I'm sure your CD will generate some ideas or modifications.

Sent PM.

Frank Pellow
01-04-2006, 10:43 AM
Frank: There doesn't seem to have been much action with the CD since Remembrance Day. I would like to remedy that - But, I do recall an open invite to a personal viewing of the shop from your weekly progress reports. I need to know how you like your Timmy's and maybe we could arrange a mutually convenient time when I could come to the city to have a look see and pick up the CD.
Thanks eh! Chris
Chris, it would be great to see you. So far, only one SMC member has visited my shop, so we could double that with your vist. I will send you a private message to arrange details.

Actually, I am not as big a fan of Timmy's as most Canadians, but I do have it from time to time -just with a bit of milk.

Frank Pellow
01-04-2006, 10:56 AM
Frank, I'm new to this forum and would be very intersted in your CD since I will be building a workshop this coming spring. Althought the size I'm looking at will be in the 16x24 range (limited by yard space) I'm sure your CD will generate some ideas or modifications.

Sent PM.
Norm, I will be happy to send you a CD. My shop was also limited by yeard space and it is not much bigger than the one that you are planning to build.