New to Hand Planes and Starting a Collection

[Cooper Anderson]

Recently, I was given a Stanley Sweetheart 602 low angle jack plane as a gift, which has sparked my interest in learning how to use hand planes. Unfortunately, this is the only hand plane I have.

The most pressing need I have for hand planes is probably flattening larger glue-ups that are too big for my power planer.

I have an opportunity to buy what appears to be a very nice Stanley Bedrock 605 and, if I'm interested, an equally nice Bedrock 604.

Assuming these two planes are in excellent shape and that the price is right, do these two planes add anything that my 602 low angle jack plane doesn't already offer?

My plan is to buy a No. 7 jointer plane, which I may still do, but I don't want to pass on a good opportunity.

What could I do with a Bedrock 604 or a 605 that I couldn't easily do with the 602? I assume plenty, but I'm not sure.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If you look at the thread on this page about buying a Lie Nielsen 5 or 5 1/2 there is a discussion of the differences in planes. You will get very different answers depending on whether you are primarily looking to collect versue primarily looking to use them to make stuff.

[Tom M King]

I think you must mean 62, instead of 602. If you got a 602 as a gift, I wouldn't know what to say to the giver. If you can get the 604, that would be my first choice for your next plane. It's a smoothing plane. A 5 is a Jack Plane, which most people set up to take off high parts of a board for flattening it. It's called a "jack" because at one time it was the one plane that carpenters carried, as a "jack of all trades" to be set up for different purposes.

[Jim Koepke]

Recently, I was given a Stanley Sweetheart 602 low angle jack plane as a gift, which has sparked my interest in learning how to use hand planes. Unfortunately, this is the only hand plane I have.

As Tom mentioned, if it is a 602, it isn't a jack plane. If it is low angle it is likely a #62.

The Stanley #62 is more a collector plane than it is a good user. It has a tendency to chip around the mouth with much use.

Mea culpa! Patrick may have the answer in this being a newer #62 which means it isn't a collector. Some might say it takes too much work to make it a user.

Both the #604 & #605 would be good planes to have in the shop.

A #7 would round out the set for a jack, jointer and a smoother.

Here is an article on hand planes and their use by size:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/understanding_bench_planes

The Bedrock planes have a 60 in front of the number to designate they are different than the Bailey style planes. Some companies use other numbering systems.

jtk

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Cooper,

I am the guy that asked that 5 or 5 1/2 question referred to earlier in this thread. Something to be aware of is that the Bedrock planes are Stanley's higher end line of planes. If you were given a 602, as Tom points out, either the giver didn't know what they had or you should marry them - that is one very valuable gift. 602's are very highly collectable. Bedrocks in general are very nice, of course depending on condition. However there are other options you should be aware of. There are many folks out there that sell 2nd hand planes. They typically go to flea markets and find rusty treasures, refurbish them, and then sell them . They often have mailing lists. Patrick Leach is one name, I think Don W is another, although I realize that is not enough info. I am sure people on the board can help.

As far as what to get next - you should read the thread about the "5 or 5 1/2 LN plane" that is on the first page or so of this forum (the Neanderthal section). There is really great feedback in there. I would suggest as the second plane to get a #4 or 4 and 1/2. The 4 1/2 is a bit larger and broader, and is maybe a bit tougher to use, but it is a very versatile plane. However I would say get yourself a great (and I mean GREAT) block plane first. Don't go cheap on the block plane, it is the tool you will reach for the most. Look into Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley/Veritas for a very nice block plane. I suggest the Lee Valley Low Angle Block plane as a fantastic starter plane. It is a bit expensive, and Stanley's version of this is more than adequate, but if you are going to invest in any tool, imho this is the one to go high on. Here is a link to the Lee Valley website for this plane> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=47881&cat=1,41182,41189&ap=1

I hope this helps. Planes are a fantastic collecting hobby and learning to use them is very fun. This board is a great resource, as you will find from all the people who respond to your questions. Have a good time and a great holiday!

Joe

[Cooper Anderson]

Ok. Sorry. You guys are right. I have the No. 62.

[Cooper Anderson]

Great advice. Very appreciated. I think I'll pick up the 604, 605, and then a No. 7 jointer. That should be a good start. It doesn't sound like my #62 will be much use to me, at least not in comparison to the others. Thanks again for the feedback.

[Patrick Chase]

As Tom mentioned, if it is a 602, it isn't a jack plane. If it is low angle it is likely a #62.

I suspect Tom was driving at the fact that the 602 (a #2-sized smoother with Bed Rock mechanics) is collectable in the "high-3-digit or low-4-digit price tag even on EBay" sense of the word. I wouldn't know what to say to the giver either. I also wouldn't put one to hard use. If somebody were buying a #2-sized plane to actually use then this is a case where a new L-N makes more financial sense than a used 602.

A classic #62 is also somewhat collectible, but the OP described a low-angle jack and said "Sweetheart #602", which leads me to think he's got one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-12-137-No-62-Angle-Plane/dp/B002B56CUY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450401284&sr=8-1&keywords=stanley+sweetheart+62). I will withhold comment except to say that I would not buy that plane.

FWIW, I'm among the many who think that the Bed Rock configuration (the thing that distinguishes a #60X from the corresponding Bailey-pattern #X) is overhyped. The frogs on the classic Bailey-pattern planes are plenty well supported, and the putative advantage of being able to adjust the frog without removing the blade in a Bed Rock is neutralized by the fact that the frog/mouth and depth-of-cut adjustments are coupled. As Patrick Leach, Paul Sellars, and others point out the Bed Rocks are relatively rare today mostly because nobody thought they were worth the extra money at the time.

[Jim Koepke]

A classic #62 is also somewhat collectible, but the OP described a low-angle jack and said "Sweetheart #602", which leads me to think he's got one of these. I will withhold comment except to say that I would not buy that plane.

This slipped right past me. My previous post has been amended.

If it is one of the new "Sweethart #62s, then he would be doing good to put it to work.

Without pictures it is often difficult to know what folks are talking about.

jtk

[Cooper Anderson]

I confused everyone, I think. Here is the No. 62 low angle sweetheart plane that I have:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-62-Sweetheart-14-in-Low-Angle-Jack-Plane-12-137/203714081?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CTHD%7CG%7C0%7CG-BASE-PLA-D25T-HandTools%7C&gclid=CL2Nta615ckCFQmOaQod4s0J8A&gclsrc=aw.ds

What is this plane good for? And how does it differ from the Bedrock 604 and 605? Thanks

[Jim Koepke]

I confused everyone, I think. Here is the No. 62 low angle sweetheart plane that I have:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-62-Sweetheart-14-in-Low-Angle-Jack-Plane-12-137/203714081?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CTHD%7CG%7C0%7CG-BASE-PLA-D25T-HandTools%7C&gclid=CL2Nta615ckCFQmOaQod4s0J8A&gclsrc=aw.ds

What is this plane good for? And how does it differ from the Bedrock 604 and 605? Thanks

This is the modern version of the Stanley #62. Being a low angle bevel up design it is especially suited for cross grain and end grain work. There has been many a debate about the bevel up versus the bevel down designs. The Bedrock planes are all bevel down.

A good source to get in depth answers to your questions can be found at:

http://www.supertool.com/

This is the first page, click on "Patrick's Blood & Gore" accept the terms, then bookmark the third page.(blood & gore will bring this page to the top of the list with a Google search. Weird name for a site about planes.) At the bottom of the third page are links to take you to the pages of various planes with many answers for the person wanting to know more about planes. Even if you think you are just going to look up one plane you will likely get sucked in just like all the rest of us. So be warned and have a snack and beverage by your side in case you get lost.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Have a look at "blood and gore" which is a website maintained by a tool dealer named Patrick Leach. It won't talk about the newer planes like your 62, but it will give you a better idea of what different designs and sizes are out there and what they do.

ETA: "What Jim said." I don't know why I didn't see that he had already posted a response.

[Patrick Chase]

Have a look at "blood and gore" which is a website maintained by a tool dealer named Patrick Leach. It won't talk about the newer planes like your 62, but it will give you a better idea of what different designs and sizes are out there and what they do.

ETA: "What Jim said." I don't know why I didn't see that he had already posted a response.

+1 to Blood and Gore, unless you're an obsessive masochist in which case you can proceed right along to the type studies (http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/). Don't. Just....don't.

Blood and Gore does cover the classic #62 (http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan9.htm#num62) that was produced in the first half of the 20th century, and much he says will be applicable to yours. You're going to want to check (and fix) a few things:

1. Blade flatness. I have a Sweetheart Block Plane that I acquired on a lark, and the blade back required a fair bit of work to get to "functional" flatness, i.e. the bearing surface behind the edge all in one plane. This can be fixed by lapping in any of numerous ways.

2. Sole flatness My block plane was adequately flat (not "L-N flat" or "Veritas flat", but good enough for a block plane), but others have complained about significant sole warp with the Sweetheart #62. Once again it can be fixed by lapping.

3. Side perpendicularity to base. Again my block plane was fine for a block plane, but if you're going to shoot (a common use for this sort of plane) then you'll want to get the sides perpendicular to the base if they aren't there already. More lapping.

4. Be very careful with the aluminum lever cap - People complain about stripping screws when they tighten it too much (though in my experience with the similarly equipped block it can be tightened more than enough to stop the blade from moving, so just don't overdo it).

All of this brings me to why I said I wouldn't buy that plane. The cost savings versus something that arrives flat (L-N, Veritas, etc) wasn't compelling to me. I'd say that if you value your time at less than, say, $30/hr then it would be OK.

[Mike Brady]

I would tell you to buy the best block plane you can afford next. More planes like you mentioned the size of what you already have is just redundant. Learn to sharpen, adjust and use your new Stanley plane and the block plane you select. You are going to need to select a mode of sharpening that works for you. There are many threads here and on other forums that will give you advise on many different methods. Acquire one and learn to get sharp edges. Incorporate planes into your woodworking. The goal is to have the plane be the last thing to touch your wood before finishing. That goal can be elusive, but nothing leaves a surface on wood like a hand plane. Read this forum and ask questions. You are on your way in a very gratifying journey during which you will never stop learning.

[Roy Lindberry]

Recently, I was given a Stanley Sweetheart 602 low angle jack plane as a gift, which has sparked my interest in learning how to use hand planes. Unfortunately, this is the only hand plane I have.

The most pressing need I have for hand planes is probably flattening larger glue-ups that are too big for my power planer.

I have an opportunity to buy what appears to be a very nice Stanley Bedrock 605 and, if I'm interested, an equally nice Bedrock 604.

Assuming these two planes are in excellent shape and that the price is right, do these two planes add anything that my 602 low angle jack plane doesn't already offer?

My plan is to buy a No. 7 jointer plane, which I may still do, but I don't want to pass on a good opportunity.

What could I do with a Bedrock 604 or a 605 that I couldn't easily do with the 602? I assume plenty, but I'm not sure.

A basic bench plane kit (not joinery or molding planes) would consist of 4 planes: a fore plane, a try plane, a smoothing plane and a jointer plane. This kit is based on the function of the planes, not the size/number of each plane. It's function is somewhat determined by size (with some wiggle room), but mainly on how it is set up.

Fore plane. This is really only necessary if you are flattening/leveling rough stock. Depending on the quality of your glue-ups, you may or may not need one. It is the workhorse of planes, and generally has a heavily cambered iron, a wide mouth, and is in the medium size range. A number 5 is pretty common, and is what I use.

Try plane. After leveling the board, it is further flattened and smoothed with a try plane. The iron has a less pronounced camber and it takes finer shavings. The sole is generally larger than the fore plane to help with overall flatness. I use a number 6 for this purpose

Smoothing plane. As it's name suggests this is used for final smoothing to give you (hopefully) a finish ready surface. This has a tight mouth and very little camber to the iron (some people prefer no camber and dubbed corners). Most of the smaller planes are designed for this, with the most popular being a number 3 or number 4. I generally reach for a 4 1/2 for smoothing.

Jointer plane. This is primarily used to joint the edges of longer boards for joinery or glue up. They are longer planes to provide a large reference surface, helping to ensure a straight edge. Very little to no camber on the blade makes this ideal for creating flat edges, perfect for glue ups. Numbers 7 & 8 are common, though smaller planes are fine for smaller work. I use a number 8.

With these four planes (remember it is the setup that is critical, not the particular number or size) you can do just about anything you need to in the shop. Add in a block plane, shoulder plane, and router plane and you are golden. Your #62 is perfect for shooting end grain or even being used as a large smoother. It could be a jointer for smaller boards - it all depends on how you set it up.

I've never used a Bedrock, but I get great results from my Bailey pattern planes. I can't imagine that the Bedrocks are worth the hype, but again I've never used one, so I don't know.

[Patrick Chase]

A basic bench plane kit (not joinery or molding planes) would consist of 4 planes: a fore plane, a try plane, a smoothing plane and a jointer plane. This kit is based on the function of the planes, not the size/number of each plane. It's function is somewhat determined by size (with some wiggle room), but mainly on how it is set up.

Fore plane. This is really only necessary if you are flattening/leveling rough stock. Depending on the quality of your glue-ups, you may or may not need one. It is the workhorse of planes, and generally has a heavily cambered iron, a wide mouth, and is in the medium size range. A number 5 is pretty common, and is what I use.

Try plane. After leveling the board, it is further flattened and smoothed with a try plane. The iron has a less pronounced camber and it takes finer shavings. The sole is generally larger than the fore plane to help with overall flatness. I use a number 6 for this purpose

Smoothing plane. As it's name suggests this is used for final smoothing to give you (hopefully) a finish ready surface. This has a tight mouth and very little camber to the iron (some people prefer no camber and dubbed corners). Most of the smaller planes are designed for this, with the most popular being a number 3 or number 4. I generally reach for a 4 1/2 for smoothing.

Jointer plane. This is primarily used to joint the edges of longer boards for joinery or glue up. They are longer planes to provide a large reference surface, helping to ensure a straight edge. Very little to no camber on the blade makes this ideal for creating flat edges, perfect for glue ups. Numbers 7 & 8 are common, though smaller planes are fine for smaller work. I use a number 8.

With these four planes (remember it is the setup that is critical, not the particular number or size) you can do just about anything you need to in the shop. Add in a block plane, shoulder plane, and router plane and you are golden. Your #62 is perfect for shooting end grain or even being used as a large smoother. It could be a jointer for smaller boards - it all depends on how you set it up.

I've never used a Bedrock, but I get great results from my Bailey pattern planes. I can't imagine that the Bedrocks are worth the hype, but again I've never used one, so I don't know.

IMO the Bedrock configuration isn't worth it. Yes, you can adjust the frog without removing the blade and yes, that makes it easier to get the rotation axis set up so that the mouth opening is uniform, but in my experience it's a very marginal gain. Not worth the premium those planes command relative to their Baily-pattern counterparts.

I think your description of the commoh planes is spot-on, with one modification: The "try" and "jointer" planes are often combined into one, usually a #7 or #8. The #6 is traditionally a Fore plane (which you correctly describe), though like you I've used my #6 as both try and jointer in the past (before I had both #7 and #8 planes) and it works just fine provided the blade is set up properly. Obviously a 6 with the blade cambered for use as a Fore will not be useful as try/jointer. Surface flattening and edge jointing are similar enough that you don't really even need different blade configurations for the two.

[Robert Engel]

Great advice. Very appreciated. I think I'll pick up the 604, 605, and then a No. 7 jointer. That should be a good start. It doesn't sound like my #62 will be much use to me, at least not in comparison to the others. Thanks again for the feedback.That's a good selection for what you want to do. But a Bedrock is going to be a top dollar plane in today's collector driven market. For the money I recommend check out the WoodRiver lline of planes at Woodcraft.

[Patrick Chase]

That's a good selection for what you want to do. But a Bedrock is going to be a top dollar plane in today's collector driven market. For the money I recommend check out the WoodRiver lline of planes at Woodcraft.

In my experience the collectibility of a plane is very often inversely proportional to its usefulness as a tool. The reason is simple: These were commoditized mass-market tools, not paintings or statues. Stanley's goal was to maximize profit, and the way they did that was to keep manufacturing costs low (hence inventions like the bent-sheet-metal cap iron) and sell as many as they could.

If an entire plane model (as opposed to a specific rare subtype within a model) is collectable today, then that means Stanley wasn't able to sell it in volume at the time. And that means that craftspeople didn't perceive a need for it. Over the years I've bought a few modern replicas of such "rare" planes, and by and large I have come to understand why nobody bought them to begin with.
I have 4 Bed Rock clones right now (2 L-N, 2 WR), and I can understand exactly why the "lower end" Bailey pattern planes outsold the Bed Rocks - they weren't worth the premium then, and they certainly aren't worth the used-market premium now (it's different with new planes, since "Bed Rock propaganda" has become so pervasive with the help of sources like FWW that most quality metal planes are in fact Bed Rocks. Veritas is the big exception).

[Jim Koepke]

I have had a few Bedrocks go through my shop.

(NOTE the through... )

I have found them at various pawn shops, antique shops, junk stores and yard sales.

They do have a slightly different feel when in use. What I love about them is being able to find one cheap and then sell it to someone who wants the name.

So if you want the Bedrock mystique but not the price, look for some of the other planes with the same design. The Keen Kutter K series is a good example.

Another would be the early Bedrocks with the round sides. They do not draw a premium like the flat top Bedrocks.

When all is said and done, a good type 9 Stanley/Bailey plane is a fine user.

Sargent had a contender in this market. The Shaw's patent design adjusts the frog without changing the blade adjustment. I do not know how those go for price.

How often to people actually adjust their frogs?

For me, it is less expensive to have multiple #5 planes set up differently instead of having a single plane that always needs to be adjusted for the job at hand. Currently there are four #5 planes in my shop and the total cost was less than $45, some spare parts and fettling time.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

When all is said and done, a good type 9 Stanley/Bailey plane is a fine user.


SInce the OP probably has no idea what a "type" is, behold the triumph of OCD that is the Type Study (linking directly to type 9 - trust me, you don't want to read too much more): http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/type_study.php#Type%209

[Jim Koepke]

SInce the OP probably has no idea what a "type" is, behold the triumph of OCD that is the Type Study (linking directly to type 9 - trust me, you don't want to read too much more): http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/type_study.php#Type%209

Well, you know me and always wanting pictures. That is why this is my favorite type study:

http://www.rexmill.com/planes101/typing/typing.htm

Sorry, have to scroll down for the type 9 page.

BTW, almost every type study has errors or omission. Some due to old parts on a "type update" some due to unnoticed changes when the studies were first done. Type 6 started with right hand threads on the depth adjuster and ended with left hand threads. Type 9 started with a small fin in the casting and ended up with a rounded hump more like the type 10 and later. I am sure there are other small anomalies throughout the years.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Well, you know me and always wanting pictures. That is why this is my favorite type study:

http://www.rexmill.com/planes101/typing/typing.htm

Sorry, have to scroll down for the type 9 page.

BTW, almost every type study has errors or omission. Some due to old parts on a "type update" some due to unnoticed changes when the studies were first done. Type 6 started with right hand threads on the depth adjuster and ended with left hand threads. Type 9 started with a small fin in the casting and ended up with a rounded hump more like the type 10 and later. I am sure there are other small anomalies throughout the years.

jtk

Miore broadly, when buying an old Bailey plane the choice of type boils down to a tradeoff between refinement (genuinely beneficial new features added as time went on) and debasement ("features" added mostly to reduce cost). Both were happening at the same time, so it isn't as simple as "the peak is between X and Y"). I think it's safe to say that you don't want to touch anything newer than WW2 as it was all pretty much debasement from there, but before that there were both hits and misses. For example type 3 (probably Stanley's attempt to cost-reduce the design they'd bought from Bailey) was a clear "miss" and step backwards IMO.

Types 9-11 (which are mechanically very similar) represent a sustained run of "hits".

[Jim Koepke]

I think it's safe to say that you don't want to touch anything newer than WW2

I am a bit more picky. 1930 is when the ring around the knob started. My preference is mostly for the low knob. With the ring a short knob doesn't work. 1933 is when the ogee frog started. I like that even less than tall knobs.

These are my personal preferences. It doesn't mean there are no good planes in those years, it just means they are not the ones of my preference.

jtk

[steven c newman]

My version of a "Plane Collection"...
327451
About half Stanleys, and half Millers Falls. There is also a collection of wood bodied planes elsewhere in the shop.

[Phil Mueller]

+1 what Roy said...my plane numbers are a bit different, but set up for use as he described.
I have the 62 you own. I guess I was lucky to get one pretty darn flat and square. The biggest negative for me is the large amount of play in the iron adjustment. Tons of backlash. Once set, and locked down, it's fine, but making precision adjustments can be frustrating. If you keep that in mind, in can be a user. For that reason, it doesn't get that much use. I'm considering either trueing it up a bit more as a dedicated shooter, or put a cambered iron in it for rough dimensioning.

in addition, I have restored a Stanley Defiant #4 (lesser quality end of the war model), and a few garage sale block planes to use for cleaning up glue lines and other rough work prior to running my better planes.

[Bill Rhodus]

i also have a pair of the newer 62 stanleys and find them to be adequate tools. not quite the quality of a veritas, and not worth the possible trouble for the minor difference in list price. however, these were purchased for $109 delivered from the net and the veritas was about $200.

[Archie England]

Bedrocks and vintage Stanley/Bailey handplanes are breakable if dropped. They also can have a lot of micro-issues to trim out before working flawlessly; but, these vintage planes can really perform well. From a type 8 to 17, these old planes have served me well. Though I prefer types 10-13, any type that works becomes my favorite. :)

I finally broke down and bought a LV and a LN (block planes and/or specialty planes--router, shoulder, plow). These are terrific handplanes. The ductile metal in these newer planes will not break, and the companies stand behind them 100%. With the better blades and better designs, the planes have fewer to no micro-issues to fix before using. However, the work produced is not usually better than what tuned, vintage planes can produce. Consequently, usefulness is perhaps a better criteria for purchasing than collectible.

As others above pointed out, there are several quality vintage brands (Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls, Keen Kutter, Winchester, and Ohio), along with some others that are a tad more hit or miss (Vaughn/Bushnell, Corsair, Craftsman--red or blue label). Often, a shorter blade may indicate that the plane was a genuine user; so, if complete, buy those and purchase replacement blades as needed.

have fun!

[Prashun Patel]

Cooper-

(glib answer alert)

Have you invested in good sharpening equipment? IMHO, that is the key to success with bladed hand tools. If you have not, I'd start there, and work on your marriage with your 602 first. Once you've become facile with sharpening, then you can entertain the thought of a new (or second, third) wife.

[lowell holmes]

To get started, I suggest you find a used #3 or #4 Stanley Bailey and use it a while to get acquainted with planes. That would get you started and enable you to make your own mind up about planes.
You should be able to find one reasonably priced. I would look for an older plane. You should be forewarned that they multiply like rabbits.