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Todd Burch
12-15-2015, 5:44 PM
I've talked to a few different loggers recently, and I'm finding I don't speak their language yet.

Primarily, when discussing the money. I've been asked by all three "what will you pay" or "what does it pay", when I tell them I want to buy a quantity of logs.

It's not like I can search Amazon.com to see what logs are going for right now. How am I supposed to know? I mean, they are the ones selling, right?

Is this the kind of thing that if my answer is too low, they ignore me?

How does one get started learning their language? :confused:

Jamie Buxton
12-15-2015, 7:14 PM
It isn't a language issue. You understand what they want to know. The problem is that you don't know what logs generally cost in your area. Somebody who had been buying logs for years would know how much he was willing to spend. You can ask around to see if anybody will tell you. Or you can float a price and see if anybody bites. Most folks who start out by bargaining -- like these folks seem to be -- are not likely to refuse to talk to you the second time around. After all, they do want to sell logs.

Ian Moone
12-15-2015, 7:21 PM
Stumpage!

They need to know what you are willing to pay for logs in the round a the stump.

Then things like cartage etc are on top of that.

The stumpage (here) is usually a price /M^3. I have heard other terms state side - cubic yards & board feet etc.

When I was having green logs delivered to my mill under contract - we would get the delivery docket and of course that has the weights from the weighbridge (laden and unladen of the truck) hence the net weight of logs delivered.

Then we would get the invoice - which had it all broken down - because cartage was a factor of net weight of logs and distance from logging coupe to mill. Loading and unloading costs etc

It vary's but you will work it out - just tell them what you want - a 20 tonne truck load of logs of X species delivered to XYZ Location - and give them a specification for the logs - do you want snodgers or tooth picks?.

My particular contract specified "feature" logs and I specified the feature (nothing under a meter diameter at the butt but 1200mm = better) for e.g. if I was wishing to cut slabs for dining tables - but I also paid near 4 times the going rates for "run of the mill" logs!.

Just talk with them, they don't bite! They will educate you if they can get a long term customer out of it!.

Good luck with it.

Todd Burch
12-15-2015, 8:36 PM
I was able to talk with another logger this evening. He asked what price. I explained my ignorance of prices.

After a short time, he txt'd me back and said he talked with his logger (which sends me a red flag that he's a middle man) and said he could get my logs after the first for $85-$90 per ton. In perspective, that would be about $50 for the smallest log on my specification (min 17' long and 10" at small end). Does that sound high? I specified post oak, which is a flavor of white oak.

Danny Hamsley
12-15-2015, 8:59 PM
That is high for here. Most good grade oak hardwood around here would be more like $65 per ton for a 10" top minimum delivered. However, that is delivered to the big commercial sawmills. Since you are not likely to be able to unload a log truck quickly and efficiently, it might be the best that you can do. Many loggers will not haul to a small operation because if takes more time for them than it is worth.

The thing to do is contact a Forester in your area and they can school you a bit on log prices.

Tom M King
12-15-2015, 9:01 PM
As a seller of timber to loggers, around here, there are two ways we do it. One way is Loggers bid at an auction to buy a stand of timber, with the highest price getting the stand. The second way is the logger pays the timber owner by the ton for the timber. Either way, the load (logs) doesn't get weighed until it's offloaded at the sawmill (buyer). The auction method is best for the seller if it's a large stand of well managed timber, which will go typically from 3,000 to 6,000 dollars an acre these days. If it's a small stand of mixed sizes and types, the seller comes out better selling by the ton, these days $15 a ton for decent logs ($1 a ton if there is a load of Sweet Gum left over, otherwise it gets left on the deck to rot). You don't know what you will end up with by the ton to start with, but we've ended up getting a little better than 2k an acre for scrappy stuff-had to sell it because of Pine beetles starting in it.

I expect the typical logger may have a hard time pricing a few logs.

Mark Mallia
12-16-2015, 7:16 PM
I was able to talk with another logger this evening. He asked what price. I explained my ignorance of prices.

After a short time, he txt'd me back and said he talked with his logger (which sends me a red flag that he's a middle man) and said he could get my logs after the first for $85-$90 per ton. In perspective, that would be about $50 for the smallest log on my specification (min 17' long and 10" at small end). Does that sound high? I specified post oak, which is a flavor of white oak.
Buying logs as an individual is different than buying for a big mill, at least around here. I buy by the board foot. You use a board foot calculator, plugging in the diameter and length. Something like Post Oak I would expect to get for around $1 per board foot it's not a valuable tree. Could be less, you look at the truck or trailer full of logs and make him an offer. I don't really know how that relates to ton prices, I don't own a scale that would give me that information.

Todd Burch
12-16-2015, 9:38 PM
Yeah, buying by the ton is something I'm not sure of. Do I get to see two certified scale printouts, one showing the weight of the empty truck and another showing the loaded truck with today's date on it, or, do I take Bubba's word for it?

Martin Shupe
12-17-2015, 12:31 AM
Todd, usually the bigger mills have their own scale. You, as a small mill, can't afford that expense. I would ask for a certified scale ticket from a nearby scale. "Cat" scales advertise heavily on a late night truckers radio show, but I am sure the scales have to be certified by the state of Texas, so I would just find a scale at a nearby truck stop and ask for that one to be used.

A state forester (Texas Forest Service) should be able to give you the information you need, for free.

I usually recommend that folks selling stands of timber 1) use a consulting forester, and 2) use a "sealed bid" auction.

You should also be concerned about the quality of your logs. I think you are using them for a pole barn? (base on reading other threads) If you get logs that aren't good quality, it won't matter how cheap they are if you can't use them.

I am more used to giving advice to folks that are selling a stand of timber, so I am not used to your question.

The loggers are asking you how much you are willing to pay, so they can know how much they can bid on the trees.

A local forester should know the going rate for different species of trees.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. If you have any questions, call me, I'm in the book.

Ian Moone
12-17-2015, 4:37 AM
Do I get to see two certified scale printouts, one showing the weight of the empty truck and another showing the loaded truck with today's date on it, or, do I take Bubba's word for it?
Certified weighbridge dockets, showing loaded weight and empty weight dated the same day & location.
But the grade (specification) of log is important too!
Assessing a log, (for 'specification' and 'recoverable timber') is something only the local forester will be qualified to do!.
Also as the saw miller (presuming your going to mill your own lumber), your ability to assess the log, position it, turn it and saw it (quarter sawn, back sawn, boxing out heart wood etc) will determine your recovery rate.
It's skills you only learn by experience "i.e. making mistakes".
You'll learn a lot faster with someone experienced to guide you thru the learning process.
When you buy your lumber "rough sawn" - your paying for the experience of the miller... he makes his $$$ by knowing all this, sourcing the right specification logs, and milling them for maximum recovery - any mistakes are at his expense!. Your only paying for the lumber supplied not his log purchase costs and milling waste etc.
If you are going to build a pole barn, does the local building regulations require that your lumber be professionally stress graded and stamped in accordance with any minimum engineering specifications - so you know the lumber will carry the stress & weight load of the buildings roof over whatever designed spans and so on?
If you mill your own lumber & a stress graded spec is required by local govt building authority - who will you get to do this for you?
One last thing to watch is tensile strength, there's 2 ways to measure it... (usually at a pole destruction testing facility.
Some species (maritime pine here for e.g.) will easily pass the stress test where load is applied gradually and the pole deflects to a pre determined minimum amount - however when the shock test is applied, if its grown too quick with too much fertilizer and too much water light etc - it will snap like a carrot at the slightest knock. So things like street light (electricity transmission) poles, where there's a engineering specification for them might be fine in load bearing of the weight of cross arms and wires & pass the wind deflection load test - but still fail "the vehicle collision test" due to not meeting the shock loading specification.
Theres a surprisingly large amount of technical detail when you get right into it and dependent on the final intended use.
Some 'rural' local govt authorities building inspectors are easy going - and you might get away with milling your own lumber!.
While some might be by the book types with all the requirements for stress grading marked lumber etc.
Things vary, but best to find out before you start buying truck loads of logs that maybe you can't (or shouldn't) use.
Not saying don't do it - (because I have done it as have many others no doubt).
Just saying that any time invested in learning the ropes is well invested.
I built 2 identical workshops recently (in steel).
1 was for myself... and my local authority required a registered master builder to inspect concrete footings etc before concrete pour for integrity of reinforcing and meeting minimum specifications. They also required the same registered builder to then inspect at plate height before the roof went on and then to sign off on the building when completed, and after that they sent a local govt health & building inspector around to "inspect" the final product for compliance.
The 2nd workshop, 3 suburbs away, but under a different local govt authority, just approved the initial application - with no requirement for any inspections or supervision by a registered master builder & no inspections before or after of site footings or final inspection, nor any visits from the local govt health and building inspector so we just "built it"... with no interference from anyone!.
It all depends is the answer...
This really is one of those, "how long is a piece of string" questions at the end of the day (it's open ended).
But everyone has to learn!
The smartest thing you did was ask questions.
That, and making mistakes is how you learn.
My old man (RIP) who was a master builder - was often wont to say "The man who never made a mistake, never made anything"!

Todd Burch
12-17-2015, 10:03 AM
@Martin - thanks so much for the explanation. Understanding that the loggers need to know how much they have to work with when bidding on a tract or trees explains why they are asking what they are asking.

@Ian - this is country property. No permits and no inspections here. No gooberment intrusion! And thanks for the words of wisdom.

Tom M King
12-17-2015, 12:21 PM
Yeah, buying by the ton is something I'm not sure of. Do I get to see two certified scale printouts, one showing the weight of the empty truck and another showing the loaded truck with today's date on it, or, do I take Bubba's word for it?
When we sell by the ton, the check always comes with all the mill tickets for each load.