New to harvesting green timber - Please help answer some questions!

[Chris Hansford]

Hi everyone,

I'm happy to finally join this forum and partake in wood shop talk. I'm a complete newbie with working with green timber and hope you guys can help me answer some general questions as well as a few specific to my first little project.

P.s I live in central Ontario

I've done lots of reading about working with green timber and still have no idea what I should be doing. I'm most interested in chainsaw mill work to live edge slabs. It's to my understanding that if I want to keep bark on, my best bet is to cut the timbers in the fall/winter. My problem is that once I fell the trees that I plan to work with I don't know what to do. Should I seal the ends and let them sit off of the ground? Or should I mill them right away? If I mill them right away, do I put the slabs in a kiln dryer immediately? does the process change depending on the diameter of the tree? I plan to work with mostly black walnut and maple

More specifically, my fiancé and I are getting married next September and are planning on making tree limb coasters as gifts with a message on top using a branding iron. We really want to have the bark on, so to my understanding I will be felling the trees this winter. If possible, should I be trying to find dead standing wood to harvest? what are the differences?

Lets say that I'm unable to find dead standing wood and I have to fell the trees - the coasters will be about 5" in diameter and about 3/8' thick - should I bring the wood in to my garage immediately and cut it into the desired size right away or should I be letting it sit for the winter? I know it's the same question about, but this wood will only be 5" in diameter compared to 2' in diameter. Once cut, these pieces are pretty small and I really don't know what to do with them at this point? Bring them inside? leave them outside? how should I let them dry? Once ready, I will sand them smooth, give them a branding, then seal them and let them sit until the wedding.

I'm sorry for so many questions, but I was unable to answer them while searching the forum and the internet in general for these specifics. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[Chris Hansford]

200 views and not one person has any input or suggestions?! Come on guys, I'm sorry I don't have all that much knowledge right now but with your help and my own experience I hope to be in your position where I can help other people just getting into this kind of thing. Maybe I'm asking too much or being too specific, please tell me if I am.

Thanks again

[John Schweikert]

On first page of googling "how to make coasters from tree limbs"

http://ccfbllc.com/Log_Coasters.html?ckattempt=1

[Chris Hansford]

Yes, I have seen that. But that doesn't answer my specific questions about working with the green timber. Thank you for the effort though.

[John Schweikert]

Once the logs are cut, seal the ends with paint, primer, Anchorseal, etc. Best to store the log off the dirt to prevent bugs living in the bark over time.

Have the logs milled when you know about what size boards you want. It's better to cut thicker boards but remember it's about a year for 1 inch of wood to air dry. 8/4 - 10/4 boards can be a good range.

Stack the boards (sticker the boards) by separating them with whatever "sticks" you can muster. Use the same wood or cut plywood strips. Cover the wood to keep rain and snow off, but good air flow is important. Again, keep the wood off the ground.

Kiln drying is your choice. Air dried wood works wonderfully as long as it is allowed to acclimate to the environment which represents where the completed projects will exist (after the drying period has worked).

Get a moisture meter to follow the drying process.

If you leave a log as whole to dry, expect that to take a long, long time. Cut what you want to start, dry it, use it once the moisture content reaches your goal, acclimate the wood, build things. The longer wood dries, ideally the less movement for the completed pieces. But environment in which something is built and the environment where the finished works live need to be comparable and not huge extremes.

[Ted Calver]

Chris,
I'm not a big time timber harvester, but do process some wood for turning blanks. Until someone more knowledgeable comes along, my limited experience suggests trees harvested in winter have a better chance of retaining bark than those harvested during other times of year. Also, some species retain bark better than others. If you need the bark to stay on your slabs, then a winter harvested tree would be your best bet. You can mill the slabs immediately then end coat the slabs with Anchorseal original and stack and sticker properly in a shady spot and cover the stack with weighted roofing tin or plywood big enough to keep rain and snow off. If you can't slab them right away, you still need to seal the ends of the logs with Anchorseal and get them off the ground. You usually don't see tables or other functional pieces made from bark-on slabs. Most of the time the bark is removed down to the cambium layer and that is left in natural state, or natural edge.

As far as cookies go, it's a crap shoot. The wood shrinks as it drys and the shrinking wood on the outside of the cookie has to stretch farther than the wood at the center (pith), so most cookies tend to crack. Your cookies will be rather small at 5" x 3/8" so if you cut them and bring them into the garage so they can dry slowly you might get better results than drying them fast...like in the oven or microwave.

For what it's worth, here's what I would do on the cookies.... and it would be the same process for standing dead wood or freshly cut. First, I'd cut them closer to half an inch thick because 3/8's might be a bit fragile, and at a 60 degree angle, then I'd take my compressor and blow as much of the water out of the end grain as possible....you would be surprised how much will come out. I'd soak them in denatured alcohol over night, take them out and let them sit in the garage to dry slowly. As you start the drying process, take a couple of cookies and weigh them on the kitchen scale. Check the weight every few days. When they stop losing weight, they are ready to sand. If they crack you can always cut them in half joint the edges and glue them back together. Maybe someone else will chime in.

I'm sending you a Private Message (see notifications at the top of the page) with some more advise.

[Cody Colston]

The bark will stay on winter-cut trees better than during warm weather. The sooner you saw the logs, the better. Therre is no advantage to letting them "season" and there are several disadvantages; staining of the wood and insect activity, especially underneath the bark. Seal the log ends as soon as the tree is felled and bucked with Anchorseal or a similar product. Paint is ineffective. If you can't saw the logs immediately, get them off the ground and perferably under cover. Once they are slabbed, sticker the slabs on a flat base and keep the rain off them. A shed is best but even covering them with roofing sheet metal will work. Don't cover with a tarp as it will promote mold and mildew when the weather warms. Let the air dry to 20% MC or less before putting in a kiln or moving indoors. The 1 yr. per inch of thicknes is not very accurate as open-air drying time has too many variables. However, it will take considerable time to get thick slabs to 20%. A moisture meter is a good investment if you plan on doing more of this but for thick slabs, you will need either a pinless meter or one that the pins can be hammered into the wood. The wood can show to be dry if checked with a pin meter but that's only on the outside. The core can still be very wet.

I can't help a lot with the coasters, although I would cut them right away, too. The limb ends will crack if left in limb form. Ted's suggestion of using the alcohol soaking/drying method is probably the best chance of keeping the coasters sound although my guess is they will crack before September.

[John Schweikert]

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/drying-wood-at-home/

1" per year as stated is a general rule of thumb then go from there.

[Roger Nair]

Here is a link to a Forest Products Lab manual on air drying with a full range of factual material on drying rates and seasonal/geographic effects on drying that will end the inch per year rule of thumb with researched values.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr117.pdf

[Dave Arnett]

"As far as cookies go, it's a crap shoot"....Yep!
"....and at a 60 degree angle"....and yep!




I have been experimenting with chips/cookies for years.
This is what I've learned...
When cut at 90°, over 90% will crack wide open
The ones I've cut at an angel stayed intact
CA glue will keep the bark on
I've never sealed them in any way....my theory is it would take forever for them to dry, if ever
If you put a clear finish on them too soon, a moldy look will form under the finish
When I cut mine, I CA glue the bark, then stack & sticker them in a dark damp pole barn and forget about them for a couple years

This one was cut an an angle and the bark treated with CA. It's still intact 5-6 years later. It's about 18" across. FWIW, it's ash.

http://community.woodmagazine.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/45755iCDB08BCC0624C995/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

Here's one I just stumbled across (long story). It stayed in the pole barn for 2-3 years, then I brought it home to my climate controlled shop. What kept it from cracking??? I have know idea. It's close to 3' across and 2-3 inches thick. I'm guessing maple.

http://community.woodmagazine.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/45756iC9298E1DDC37576F/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

I made this chair in '07 out of two chips that had cracked. The bark was treated, then the whole thing got 4-5 coats of poly. It is still in good shape to this day. It's cottonwood.

http://community.woodmagazine.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/45757iE18A70367DAAB5E4/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

My advice...treat the bark, and dry them out as slowly as possible.

Working with chips is iffy at best. Good luck.....you'll need it.

I've never tried the DNA trick. If you go that route, I'd like to here what you find out.

disclaimer: All of my experimenting has been with 14"-18" diameter stuff, 2"-3" thick, so it may or may not apply to your situation.

[John Schweikert]

Here is a link to a Forest Products Lab manual on air drying with a full range of factual material on drying rates and seasonal/geographic effects on drying that will end the inch per year rule of thumb with researched values.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr117.pdf


They rate everything based on 20% moisture content which is too high for building furniture and most anything else that will reside in a house that is climate controlled.

[Roger Nair]

20% represents the boundary of free water to bound water in the wood fiber and is the first stage of drying green wood. Next stage is the kiln or heated environment(house in winter for example) or continued drying to ambient moisture.

[Andrew Gibson]

While I have not made cookies as you are planning , I have done a fair amount unusual saw-milling, slabs, unusual species, and so forth.
Use a live tree. It's winter so that might be tricky but live is better than standing dead IMO. bark on a dead tree most likely will fall right off.
cut the cookies right away, don't leave them to dry. I like the idea of cutting them at a slight angle. But straight on could work as well. If you don't want them to crack the angle may help.

The reason cookies crack is the wood shrinks in line with the rings. Think of the rings as stretched out rubber bands. As the piece looses water the bands shrink. The center of the tree can't shirk as much as the perimeter as there is no where for the wood to go, so the bands (rings) break.

If possible, drilling out the pith can help give the wood room to shrink and be less likely to crack.

Drying will go quick. The end grain gives off the water much faster than long grain so don't worry about them taking a long time to dry. If they are in low moister and being so small I think they would be good to go in a few weeks, but giving them as much time as possible is always a good idea.

I do like the idea of super gluing the bark... If you check with some wood turners that do live edge turning I am sure they will have some good pointers for you... In fact you may want to post you question in the turners section, those guys work the green stuff all the time.

Ooh, cut extras!

[Chris Hansford]

I really appreciate all of your input and suggestions. I will be taking it all into consideration while processing the wood in the next few weeks and hopefully get some photos as well as an update with my results.

Thanks everyone

[Lon Crosby]

Go to the "Turners forum" and search for stabilizing green bows. Same set of issues. The bottom line is that you need to stabilize the blanks. The use of PEG is the classic but a simpler way is to immediately boil the cookies in boiling water at a rolling boil for an hour. Pull them out and slowly dry them (say by sticking them in a paper bag filled with wood shavings or sawdust. For more money, you can buy a quart/gallon of wood stabilizer (with or w/o the need for vacuum penetration - Cactus Juice wood stabilizer is a vacuum impregnation method with lots of u-tube videos) and start learning. I would start with boiling - no cost and a easy/rapid learning curve. An outdoor turkey fryer is ideal for this.

[Rod Sheridan]

Welcome to the forum Chris.

I have no advice on the coasters, the only time I made any they were dried over the winter outside.

I just put the mill away after milling spalted maple, ash, birch and some pine.

Yes you should end seal the pieces immediately, I use the Lee Valley Log End Sealer.

You'll need to support them off the ground on wood, arranged to make a flat surface every 16 to 24 inches.

I put 1 X 2 stickers between the slabs arranged on top of the supports to allow air flow and to prevent bending.

Cover the top of the pile with a sheet of plywood that overhangs all the edges.

Regards, Rod.

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P.S. Added a photo of slabs drying in the "goat house" and a stack of ash ready to cover with a plywood roof.