Wentzloff's saw-setting-by-vise trick

[Patrick Chase]

This may be common knowledge around here, but I finally got around to trying Mike Wentzloff's trick of finalizing saw set with a metal-working vise and paper (a search will kick up the relevant Pop Woodworking column with details), and it works like a charm - The saw I tried it on (an old 20 tpi Crown dovetail that I had laying around, and that I had been using to experiment with Bad Axe-ish ~10 rake / ~10 fleam hybrid filings) cut straight, clean, and without binding on the first try. No more test-cut/stone/test-cut/stone/test-cut/... for me, even with my crappy filing/setting technique.

FWIW I use a Somax set with filed-down plunger, on the shallowest part of the mandrel. That typically leaves >4 mils/side of set, with some variability (see "crappy technique" above). The vise trick knocked that down to a nice uniform 2 mils/side for me.

[Mike Brady]

I recall Mike Wenzloff saying that the vise he uses is a high-quality machinist's vise with smooth jaws. It sounded to me like anything less than that was inadequate to evenly apply pressure to the teeth. Is that what you used to get your good results? I wonder what such a vise would cost to acquire new?

[Patrick Chase]

I recall Mike Wenzloff saying that the vise he uses is a high-quality machinist's vise with smooth jaws. It sounded to me like anything less than that was inadequate to evenly apply pressure to the teeth. Is that what you used to get your good results? I wonder what such a vise would cost to acquire new?

I made a pair of flat cauls out of surface-ground hardened steel plate with a slightly more flexible backing so they'd be self-registering to the sawplate, and used an ordinary machinist's vise. Worked just fine.

[Patrick Chase]

I recall Mike Wenzloff saying that the vise he uses is a high-quality machinist's vise with smooth jaws. It sounded to me like anything less than that was inadequate to evenly apply pressure to the teeth. Is that what you used to get your good results? I wonder what such a vise would cost to acquire new?

Sorry to double-reply, but... The vise Wenzloff is shown using the pictures I've seen is a milling vise, which is designed for precision fixturing on milling machine tables. They have two useful traits: The jaws are ground smooth and are exactly parallel. They're actually not very expensive, though, at $150 or so for a basic-but-not-junky imported one that would be adequate to this task.

The thing here is that the paper-sawplate-paper stack actually provides pretty decent self-registration for floating steel plates, so there's no need to have them constrained parallel in the vise. IMO his approach is actually overkill. Floating cauls would actually be better for a saw with a tapered plate, for that matter.

[Ron Bontz]

Just a grain of salt.
1) I actually have a milling vise sitting on one of my benches just for that purpose. However, if you want the geometry of the teeth to stay the same you will need to touch up the teeth after using the vice trick. It alters the tooth geometry. You also risk breaking teeth off. Especially on vintage saws.
2) Any time you "stone" the teeth on a saw you in effect dull the teeth by eliminating the tooth points that do the cutting in the first place. I avoid it when I can, but every one does it at some point. Take a very close look at the tooth points on a cross cut saw after stoning them. Best wishes

[Patrick Chase]

Just a grain of salt.
1) I actually have a milling vise sitting on one of my benches just for that purpose. However, if you want the geometry of the teeth to stay the same you will need to touch up the teeth after using the vice trick. It alters the tooth geometry. You also risk breaking teeth off. Especially on vintage saws.
2) Any time you "stone" the teeth on a saw you in effect dull the teeth by eliminating the tooth points that do the cutting in the first place. I avoid it when I can, but every one does it at some point. Take a very close look at the tooth points on a cross cut saw after stoning them. Best wishes

Yeah, I became aware of the unfortunate impacts of stoning after looking at my saws under magnification. That's why I decided to try the "vice trick" in the first place.

Thank you very much for the advice w.r.t. likelihood of tooth breakage. I'd assumed that might be the case, particularly if you repeatedly do it to the same saw. It also makes sense that older sawplates might be more susceptible. That's why I went with the Crown "beater saw" as opposed to one of my better ones (and I expect it'll be a long time before I work up the confidence to take a file to my Bad Axe. That would be sacrilege right now).

[lowell holmes]

I am completely happy with the set achieved with my 42-X saw set. I see no reason to do anything else. I'm sure the paper set works if you have a proper vise, but I don't.:)
I have flattened all of the set on a saw and re-set the teeth.

Having two 42-x sets, I did file the plunger on one to a smaller thickness. It is the one I use. A one time pass on the saw does the job. No adjustment is required.

I have the Somax saw set and it is good. I like the modified 42-x better.

You might want to view Ron Herman's video on saw sharpening. There really is not much to be afraid of.

[Jim Koepke]

My last purchase of bandsaw blades will be my last purchase from that particular supplier.

They came with way too much set.

A couple of steel plates set in this old thing:

327208

The jaws are not flat which is why some steel plates were used.

Combined with a bit of care feeding and pressing the blade, this took care of the over set teeth on my band saw blades.

In my opinion, it is better to set them correctly to start than it is to set and correct later.

BTW, because of the above vise having a lot of use over the years there is a slight misalignment to the jaws. It is still a fine vise.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I am completely happy with the set achieved with my 42-X saw set. I see no reason to do anything else. I'm sure the paper set works if you have a proper vise, but I don't.:)
I have flattened all of the set on a saw and re-set the teeth.

Having two 42-x sets, I did file the plunger on one to a smaller thickness. It is the one I use. A one time pass on the saw does the job. No adjustment is required.

I have the Somax saw set and it is good. I like the modified 42-x better.

You might want to view Ron Herman's video on saw sharpening. There really is not much to be afraid of.

I've viewed Herman's video and a bunch more, sharpened about 25 times by now, and shaped and set maybe 10 times. I seem to hit my angles (rake, fleam) with reasonable accuracy using the usual "guide block" approach, and have figured out how to manage the flats while I work the faces (by "manage" I mean "pace my work so that I end up removing the last bit of the flat from every tooth on the final sharpening pass"). I've also re-toothed one saw, using a variation on Paul Sellar's approach (short version: Pre-grooved wood guide).

With that said, I've also watched people who do this day in and day out, and I know there's a HUGE amount of muscle memory (and therefore practice) that goes into doing a truly excellent job. That's where I'm lacking, and it's going to be a long slog to get there. In the mean time I'll cheat any way I can.

The problem with the Somax is obvious by inspection - The slope of the mandrel is too high, such that even turned all the way to the small end it imparts several mils of set. Maybe you like wide cuts or exclusively work with panel saws, but that isn't my thing. Out of curiosity, have you measured the set you get from the 42X? If so what is it?

[Jim Koepke]

Out of curiosity, have you measured the set you get from the 42X? If so what is it?

I have not actually measured the set on my most recent saws. If I get out to the shop today, I will try to remember to check it out.

I do know the 42X can be set to impart a very minimal set almost to the point of being no set.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

You can grind down the face of the Somax sawset anvil. That's what I did with mine. Lay the side with the slope on a piece of sanding paper and rub forth and back or in circles until the slope is a lot shallower.

[Patrick Chase]

You can grind down the face of the Somax sawset anvil. That's what I did with mine. Lay the side with the slope on a piece of sanding paper and rub forth and back or in circles until the slope is a lot shallower.

Interesting... I'd considered doing that, but this the first time I've heard of somebody else going that route. Thank you!

[Stewie Simpson]

Interesting... I'd considered doing that, but this the first time I've heard of somebody else going that route. Thank you!

http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot.de/2011/10/schrankzangen-feinttuning-2-pimp-my-saw.html

[Kees Heiden]

It certainly wasn't my invention! I have the Eclipse, they say it is made of better steel. I don't worry too much about the slope of the anvil. If it was good enough for the Brits, it's plenty good enough for me!

[lowell holmes]

The 42-x is infinitely adjustable. After I modified mine, I had a newly sharpened saw with zero set in it. I marked every other tooth on each side with a marker. I had almost zero set adjusted on the newly modified saw sat. I set the teeth on each side. I was pleasantly surprised with the test cut. It was straight, fast and easy. If you look at the saw, you might think it needs some set added, but it cuts quickly, straight, and smooth.

My conclusion from all of this, for what it's worth, start out with almost zero set and test cut. If it's binding add a very small amount and try again. You will eventually get to the set you want. It shouldn't take more than two or three attempts.

[Tom M King]

I probably have ten pounds of different saw sets. Once I got a 42X, none of the others have been used since. I have two 42X's now, one with the tooth forming geometry made smaller for fine toothed saws. It grabs the saw, holding it's position fixed before it starts pushing on a tooth. I think you'd have to try pretty hard to screw up the set with one once you have it adjusted like you want it.

[Patrick Chase]

The 42-x is infinitely adjustable. After I modified mine, I had a newly sharpened saw with zero set in it. I marked every other tooth on each side with a marker. I had almost zero set adjusted on the newly modified saw sat. I set the teeth on each side. I was pleasantly surprised with the test cut. It was straight, fast and easy. If you look at the saw, you might think it needs some set added, but it cuts quickly, straight, and smooth.

My conclusion from all of this, for what it's worth, start out with almost zero set and test cut. If it's binding add a very small amount and try again. You will eventually get to the set you want. It shouldn't take more than two or three attempts.

OK, "uncle". Being an "instant gratification" sort of person I went and ordered the last one Pete Taran had in inventory (plus Vintage Saws is one of those sites that I don't mind spending extra to support).

When you say "modified" are you referring to narrowing the plunger, or is there more to it?

[Patrick Chase]

http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot.de/2011/10/schrankzangen-feinttuning-2-pimp-my-saw.html

Thanks! That's a slick approach.

I decided that the time to tweak the Somax was worth more than the cost of a used 42X (I know, not the ethic we're supposed to demonstrate around here). I'll use it to do something with this "wood" stuff that occasionally enters the discussion.

[Patrick Chase]

My last purchase of bandsaw blades will be my last purchase from that particular supplier.

They came with way too much set.

A couple of steel plates set in this old thing:

327208

The jaws are not flat which is why some steel plates were used.

Combined with a bit of care feeding and pressing the blade, this took care of the over set teeth on my band saw blades.

In my opinion, it is better to set them correctly to start than it is to set and correct later.

BTW, because of the above vise having a lot of use over the years there is a slight misalignment to the jaws. It is still a fine vise.

jtk

I somehow missed this post... That's almost exactly what I did the other night. I put some very stiff foam backing on the plates to help them float w.r.t. the vise jaws, but other than that it's the same thing.

[lowell holmes]

OK, "uncle". Being an "instant gratification" sort of person I went and ordered the last one Pete Taran had in inventory (plus Vintage Saws is one of those sites that I don't mind spending extra to support).

When you say "modified" are you referring to narrowing the plunger, or is there more to it?

The plunger has to be taken out of the saw set and filed thinner, then put back in the set. I started with absolutely minimum set, so close I thought it would not work, but it did. I realize now I had been putting too much set on my saws. A fine uniform set on the teeth works best for me.

[Patrick Chase]

The plunger has to be taken out of the saw set and filed thinner, then put back in the set. I started with absolutely minimum set, so close I thought it would not work, but it did. I realize now I had been putting too much set on my saws. A fine uniform set on the teeth works best for me.

Yeah, I agree completely w.r.t. amount of set - That's why I tried Wentzloff's vise trick. I used pages from the Lee Valley Xmas flyer (~2.5 mils thick) as the spacers and ended up with a nice even ~2 mil/side set, which works pretty well for me. It will better to not have to overset and then bend back, though.

I know a couple folks who are much better sawyers than me and who work almost exclusively in stable hardwoods, and they prefer unset saws for some work. The tradeoff there is of course that there's no forgiveness if you start a cut off-line.