Experiments with Aniline Dyes on Curly Maple

[Brian Kent]

Here are 5 experiments on chalices - aniline dyes on curly maple.

From left to right:
Wash of black as an undercoat, several layers of red.
Several layers of red only.
Red and blue mixed to purple.
One coat of red.
Several coats of blue.

They are topped with shellac or WTF.

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

by a "wash of black" - did you dye black then sand it back, or did you apply a weak black dye?

I wonder what the wash of black under the blue would look like

[Brian Kent]

I did one coat of black in a somewhat weak mixture, sanded a lot, added another coat on the base, sanded, and then did several coats of red, with very light fine sanding.

[John Keeton]

Brian, aniline dyes are not lightfast. You might want to consider metal acid dyes like Transtint.

Also, nearly all black dyes have a blue undertone, so one needs to consider that when overlaying other colors.

[Brian Kent]

Actually these are all Transtint.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Trams Tint yellow over black will result in a green color. As John states, the black has a blue undertone in it. I have found that that green hue tends to fade also when exposed to light over time. I've found that India ink can do the same. Got mine at a Blick's Art store and was told it was pure black?

[John Keeton]

India ink is supposed to be a "good" black and Feibings marine black leather dye does pretty well.

[Dick Strauss]

I have not had the best results with Transtint purple (not red and blue) in the way of fade rsistance when it is used in a finish. If it is used in a finish (purple lacquer), the purple will fade quickly without being exposed to any direct sunlight within about a year (the sun has to bounce off of several surfaces before reaching the items in question). One item turned from ash was so dark from multiple coats of purple lac, it was hard to see it was actually wood and it almost looked black. Now it is a very light red/pink tone after a year or so and the blue tones seems to be completely lost.

I assume that the blues are less stable for some reason. According to Homestead Finishing "You should avoid using blue, purple, and violet dye colors that are exposed to a strong source of sunlight." They also state on their website "What this means is that a particular dye, when applied as a solution to bare wood might have better lightfastness than the same dye, when used in a dilute concentration as a toner."

I expected better than a year when I used it as a toner. Oh well, live and learn! I guess I should have done more research. Hopefully you won't have the same "blues" or lack thereof when applying it directly to the wood.

[John Keeton]

The violet/purple color fading traits you mention are common with all dyes, and the idea is to use the best knowing all will fade. I have had pretty good luck with Procion MX dyes, but again, the lightfast qualities of certain colors are similar to the metal acid dyes. Pigments probably are best, but they are not true dyes. They are in suspension, but in some situations will produce a very acceptable result.

[Dick Strauss]

Brian,
You are well on your way. Kudos on chosing very similar wood for your comparison. I'll have to try that in the future on a piece of flat stock where i can view them side by side on the same piece of wood.

John,
You are right about pigments. Some of the pigment inks for inkjet printers promise 50 years of lightfastness (according to what standard?). The pigments suspended in oil paints still have vibrant colors hundreds of years later.

What has been your experience with Procion MX dyes in terms of blues and purples (if any)? Do you prefer these over the Transtints in certain applications?

Thanks in advance,
Dick

[John Keeton]

Dick, the Procion dyes are mixed in water, and one needs to wet sand prior to application to minimize the fuzzies. They also are cellulose reactive, meaning that the color of the liquid is not necessarily what you will get on the wood. Testing is important. However, they are cheap and relatively easy to use and available in a wide variety of colors. I do not have any experience with lightfastness in the blues and purples, though Jacquard lists the lightfast factors as lower on those colors.

[Bill Boehme]

Brian, aniline dyes are not lightfast. You might want to consider metal acid dyes like Transtint.

Also, nearly all black dyes have a blue undertone, so one needs to consider that when overlaying other colors.

While the term aniline is used quite a bit, none of the so-called aniline dyes that I know of are really aniline. The word just helps market the product because that is what people ask for.

I have used TransTint dyes for about ten years and they seem to fade considerably in about three or four years (especially blue and red) even though not exposed to sunlight. The Artisan dyes start out looking drab so I no longer use them. I have used Chestnut dyes for about four years and I am very pleased so far with their colorfastness. Here is a piece that I did last week using Chestnut dyes. It was donated to my turning club for the Christmas party auction.

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EDIT: I found the picture of a dyed chalice that I made a few months ago. I normally do not use black dye, but in this case it seemed to work. I applied the black over the first topcoat and then sanded to blend it in. Applying it over the clear coat seems to keep it from muddying the underlying color.

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[John Keeton]

Bill, I have seen Jimmy Clewes use these, but some time ago I checked the MSDS on them and I have concerns about the toxicity. I am not sure gambling on my health is worth the potentially better lightfastness.

[Marvin Hasenak]

On the pipemakers forum there is a section on finishing that has some real good info on using dyes. You will have to sift through a bunch of stuff to find the good stuff. The pipemakers have been using dyes a longtime to bring out the burl figure in briar. I would recommend taking electronic notes so you can keep the link to the info you want to refer to. Not all of it real clear, so you also have to "interpret" what they are actually doing compared to what they say their process is.

Here is the link to the finishing section.
http://www.pipemakersforum.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=35&sid=abc2a223531e7bd0d9378bc8c993771d


While you are there you might want to look at the pipemaker's techniques for shaping a pipe. Those that turn and then carve and create other shapes out of the turnings might see some ideas that can be used in their work.

[Dave Bunge]

I recently purchased some Feibing's marine black leather dye and am interested to hear application tips. Is it best to apply as received or to dilute first? What solvents are appropriate for diluting it?

My guesses/predictions are: for intense black on a small object like a finial, apply as received. For less intense or to stretch for larger objects, dilute using denatured alcohol. But I'm interested to know what others have found.

Dave

[Marvin Hasenak]

I recently purchased some Feibing's marine black leather dye and am interested to hear application tips. Is it best to apply as received or to dilute first? What solvents are appropriate for diluting it?

My guesses/predictions are: for intense black on a small object like a finial, apply as received. For less intense or to stretch for larger objects, dilute using denatured alcohol. But I'm interested to know what others have found.

Dave

I also do leatherwork, the person that taught me about leather dye said "If I want real black to first dye with blue, let t dry then dye with black". it works for me on leather.

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, I have seen Jimmy Clewes use these, but some time ago I checked the MSDS on them and I have concerns about the toxicity. I am not sure gambling on my health is worth the potentially better lightfastness.

What chemicals or other information in the safety data sheet (http://chestnutproducts.co.uk/documents/Spirit%20Stain.pdf) are your health concern? It is flammable and it does contain methanol so all precautions should be followed. I wear disposable nitrile gloves and work outdoors to avoid concentration of fumes. It is also a good idea to wear a faceshield or goggles in case of an accident that might lead to the dye splashing in your eyes.

The same precautions need to be followed if using TransTint dye mixed with denatured alcohol. Once upon a time the type of denatured alcohol found in the paint section of hardware stores was about 90% ethanol and about 5% methanol added to "denature" the alcohol. However, if you buy denatured alcohol today, it is mostly methanol -- as much as 80 to 85 percent for some brands. Use of the word "denatured" is somewhat of a misnomer considering the level of methanol.

I wonder if those who soak green wood in denatured alcohol realize that they are handling such large quantities of methanol.

[Marvin Hasenak]

I wonder if those who soak green wood in denatured alcohol realize that they are handling such large quantities of methanol.

I bet a lot would probably not consider it to be dangerous, because it is called alcohol, and it doesn't have an offensive odor.

[tony tomlinson]

Hi Brian,
Boy, those look great to me. Did you mix the Transtint with water or alchohol? The reds look kind of "brick red" which I find very appealing. Good luck with your work, keep us posted
Tony

[Brian Kent]

Thank you. So far I have only tried alcohol to avoid grain raising.