another jointer/planer thread. sorry

[Richard Shaefer]

I just got a fairly significant promotion at work (yay, me) and I've been mulling a jointer/planer combo for some time.
We can argue combos vs. separates, but I just don't have the real estate for a big jointer and a big planer, so end of story.
I was originally considering 3 models:

Jet JJP-12
Grizzly GO634-XP
Hammer A3-26 (10" model - the 31 is out of budget)

The features I really want are:
I want to be able to push it up against the wall. Only the Grizzly and the Hammer do that.
I want a euro blade guard. Only the Jet and the Hammer do that.
I want a helical head or at least the ability to upgrade later. The Jet and Grizzly already come with helical heads, the Hammer does not and the machine is not up-gradable unless you buy it that way, and the cost premium for that is like $800.

All models are *about* the same price. The Hammer costs more, but I can pick it up in Delaware where there's no sales tax, so it tightens the race.

For some reason, Grizzly stopped making the GO-634XP, so that one seems to be off the table. The replacement GO634 has nothing I want except for the spiral cutterhead

The Jet JJP12 has the euro guard, a downright crappy looking fence design and I could in theory upgrade to a spiral head to a later date, if I wanted to

the Hammer has the euro guard and the tight fence design I want. The Felder rep flat out told me that the heads are not interchangeable, so no upgrades available from them, even though Byrd does make a Sheliz head for a rather princely $800+ I suppose I could do later. It's also the smallest table at 10", but it's a hell of a brand name behind the machine.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the Hammer, but I'm open to counterpoints or options I didn't consider.

thanks!

[Peter Quinn]

You can get the hammer.....or get one of the others and spend lots of time wishing you had gotten the hammer. With the right casters, these things are highly mobile, so the wall is not insurmountable in my mind. For me the 10" planer is a restriction I could not suffer, I'd save up an get the bigger one. This is a life time investment, I've planed a lot of boards wider than 10" in my life....

[Peter Kelly]

There's a few threads on here regarding the Jet, reviews were somewhat less than stellar. Essentially "works ok enough but not worth the money WMH charges for it".

The MiniMax J/Ps all ship with OSHA compliant pork chop guards, the euro style ones can be ordered from SCMI via Parts Pronto.

I'd also note that the Hammer machines can take a few months for delivery from the time of order. I don't believe they stock too much in the way of machinery at the showroom in Delaware.

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

Richard, can't say anything about Grizzly, but I did use JJP12 with regular knife for a 4 years and now I have Felder combination machine with Silent head JP.
First - whatever machine you will choose - go for helical head from the beginning. Very quite, you can talk while working. Good planed surface.
I like JJP12 a lot, good quality, good performance machine, never have a problem. Sell it only when I got combination machine.
Felder, at least when I visited Felder in Delaware, looks more substantial than Hammer by weight, sturdiness. More meat under the table. But I would not buy 10" planer if I have an option to buy 12".

Ed.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have a 12 inch jointer with knives I use the the front 6inches mostly.When they knives start showing lines I use the second half toward the back.Then I use the whole knive and skew the material.
Its like buying a bag of your favorite potato chips then eating half a bag then saving the other half for later.Or you can eat the whole thing at once and get a belly ache.😆

[Peter Kelly]

There's currently a 2004 16" Hammer J/P on Philadelphia CL. Seller is asking $2,700.00 but the ad has been up for many months so they might be willing to move on it.

Not much up I-95 from the Felder showroom in Delaware. 3 phase machine so you'd need either a VFD or phase converter.

[John TenEyck]

I had a 10" Inca J/P for 25 years. Great, compact machine and we built a lot of stuff together. I now have a 14" Mini Max. It's a world apart. I paid less a lot less for it than any of the J/P's you are considering. A spiral head may be nice, but you can't add more width except by buying a wider machine. If you don't plan to use a lot of figured wood straight knives work just fine, and it's easier to joint wood on a straight knife machine from what I'm told. You have to know what your needs are. If the 10" Felder meets your needs, buy it. It's built to far higher standard than either of the others. I don't know, but if the Hammer 12" is in the same price range as the 10" Felder, I'd buy it. It's still a far nicer machine than either of the other two. Seriously think about your need for a spiral head. The 12" Hammer Tersa head is not much higher priced than the new ones you're looking at. But all things considered, I'd be looking for 12" or wider used machine. They are out there, and if you can find a Mini Max, Hammer, Felder, etc. top end machine it will be a great machine for many more years, especially if it was owned by a hobbiest or one man shop. You'll likely pay no more than 50% of a comparable new machine.

John

[Richard Shaefer]

There's currently a 2004 16" Hammer J/P on Philadelphia CL. Seller is asking $2,700.00 but the ad has been up for many months so they might be willing to move on it.

Not much up I-95 from the Felder showroom in Delaware. 3 phase machine so you'd need either a VFD or phase converter.

Good find. I dropped the guy an email. Will let you know how that works out. Rather not deal with a few hundred more dollars on a VFD, but we'll see

[Bill Adamsen]

Richard:

One can get a retrofit Byrd or other head for most jointer/planers that were made in any quantity. Pricey, but available. 16" (410mm) is a very useful size for the JP. A 16" jointer table is quite heavy, meaning the whole machine would be heavy and if mobile, not without effort. Patience will pay off as used machines of this ilk do come on the market. To your point, most will likely be 3-phase.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, they are out there: http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-FS35-Mini-Max-Combination-Planer-Joiner-with-Shop-Fox-Mobile-Base-/221965364872?hash=item33ae2aae88:g:pRoAAOSwnipWafG-

John
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-FS35-Mini-Max-Combination-Planer-Joiner-with-Shop-Fox-Mobile-Base-/221965364872?hash=item33ae2aae88:g:pRoAAOSwnipWafG-)

[Curt Harms]

The Jet JJP-12 fence looks funky but it works okay. If I tilt the fence - which is rare - I check with a known good square when resetting and don't rely in the crude stop mechanism. At the time I bought mine the Euro machines were about 2X the price and WAY over of my budget. I checked into the Byrd head - it'd run $1000+. You could get a Jet helical cutterhead for around $600. The JJP-12HH also feeds at 12 ft./min, the straight knife version feeds at 20 ft./min. I'm a very light user but have had no maintenance issues except for having to replace a start capacitor. I got mine when they were first available in the U.S. - they'd been available in Europe as a different model no. for some years prior to being available here. I get flat square stock off the machine which is what I bought it for. I buy rough sawn stock so wanted the 12" jointer.

[Lewis Justis]

I bought the Jet JP12HH a little over a year ago, and have not regretted it. The 12" jointer capability took my work to a whole new level. The changeover between jointer and planer is quick and easy, and the helical head is a really nice upgrade. I spent several hours with a precision straightedge, feeler gauges, and a Starrett square tuning in the tables and fence when i bought it (new) and everthing is still good. The total required distance out from the wall is around 28". I will admit that the euro- gaurd takes some getting used to, and I'm still not a big fan. Like I said, I haven't regretted the purchase and I don't miss the 8" Powermatic 64B jointer or 15" Delta DC380 planer that I sold. I would not consider buying a 10" jointer/planer. Good luck in your search.

[Silas Smith]

Another happy owner of the jet. The space savings from my DJ-20 and planer is noticible in my 500 ft shop. I actually prefer the shorter beds as I've never had a problem. If you can joint a 8' board with a 22" hand plane, a 60" bed is more than adequate. I have the helical head and picked it over the grizzly because of the significantly higher number of cutters and the fence on the Grizzly hasn't recieved the best reviews as well.

I agree that the fence is adequate, not spectacular, but it holds it's settings and how many times do you really take it off 90º? The helical head is the bomb! In my opinion, I would only go with a tersa or helical head. Not having to remember grain direction and the inevitable tearout that comes with straight knives make milling such a better experience.

I waited until jet was offering 15% off and then ordered from a free shipping and no state tax site so my total cost was $2900 delivered to my garage. It was a little more than the Grizzly, but about $1000 cheaper than the comparable Hammer and $2000 less than the Felder.

It will probably require a little more setup and adjustment if you go with the Jet or Grizzly, but I could spend alot of adjustment time to justify the additional cost. The problem with tool advise is most people only have one reference point and also want to justify their decision. Take this recommendation with a grain of salt. My experience with the Jet is a good one, but there are several who haven't had the same experience.

Congrats on the promotion and soon to be tool addition in the shop!

[Art Mann]

Just keep in mind that they are not out there in every geographic location. I have been watching Craigslist for close to 10 years and I have yet to see a used jointer/planer for sale within 100 miles. Some people must buy new because that is their only alternative.


Yes, they are out there: http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-FS35-Mini-Max-Combination-Planer-Joiner-with-Shop-Fox-Mobile-Base-/221965364872?hash=item33ae2aae88:g:pRoAAOSwnipWafG-

John
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-FS35-Mini-Max-Combination-Planer-Joiner-with-Shop-Fox-Mobile-Base-/221965364872?hash=item33ae2aae88:g:pRoAAOSwnipWafG-)

[John TenEyck]

Just keep in mind that they are not out there in every geographic location. I have been watching Craigslist for close to 10 years and I have yet to see a used jointer/planer for sale within 100 miles. Some people must buy new because that is their only alternative.


You have to be willing to look further than 100 miles if you want to find a specific machine. I considered myself lucky to find the Mini Max I bought only 300 miles away. The price was so low compared to a new one that the $200 in gas and trailer rental to go get it still made a great deal - like 40% of the cost of a comparable new machine. Prior to finding that one I talked with a guy in MN about his machine. The cost to ship it to the Niagara Falls area, which I think is about 1000 miles, was about $400 - still not a deal breaker.

Anyone can buy a new machine if you have the money. It takes a little more work to find a good used one but to me the cost savings makes it well worth the effort. And keep in mind, you often get a bunch of extras thrown in for free or pennies on the dollar. I got a mobile base, knife setting jig, a complete set of wrenches, extra knives, extra belt, extra capacitor, and some other stuff I can't remember. At about 40% of the price of a comparable new machine. The machine looks new and required no repairs, nor any alignment work. Nearly 30 years old and the alignment is still perfect. I hear people talking about having to adjust a new machine to get it into alignment. It makes a lot more sense to me to buy a machine that was designed and built so that it would be in alignment when it was put together. Of the three machines the OP listed, I'll bet the Felder stands head and shoulders above the others in that regard.

John

[Peter Kelly]

Good find. I dropped the guy an email. Will let you know how that works out. Rather not deal with a few hundred more dollars on a VFD, but we'll seeN/p, keep us posted. That machine needs a good home!

A 5hp rotary phase converter only costs around $375 from American Rotary. A static one goes for around $125.

[Jim Becker]

Of the three you mention, the Hammer for sure. And even if you have to pay extra, the Euro/Bridge guard is what you want for a wide jointing surface..."pork chops" just don't cut it for that and have blade exposure as they move out of the way.

[gordy haycock]

I purchased a used Minimax FS30 smart 12" jointer/planer and I love it. I'll bet it hadn't had 20 pieces of wood put through it. I paid $2,800 for it and the guy threw in a new 3hp Laguna cyclone dust collector. I think I got a great deal.

The Minimax has the tersa blades which are easy to change and they are inexpensive. I originally thought I wanted a j/p with the spiral cutterhead, but now I can't think of a reason I would like it better than the tersa blades. In fact, I think replacing/rotating all of the spiral blades would be a pain.

The infeed and outfeed table are long enough and conversion from the jointer to the planer is pretty easy, although turning the wheel to raise/lower the planer is backwards from what you would normally think. I have it on a mobile base and it is easy to move it around.

I looked at the jet j/p and I am glad I passed on it. I'm happy with the Minimax. It is probably pretty comparable to the Hammer j/p.

[John TenEyck]

Of the three you mention, the Hammer for sure. And even if you have to pay extra, the Euro/Bridge guard is what you want for a wide jointing surface..."pork chops" just don't cut it for that and have blade exposure as they move out of the way.

Hi Jim. I'm not convinced the Euro guard is any better than the pork chop style. My Inca had a Euro style guard. I used that machine for 25 years so I know it's ins and outs. One of its deficiencies is when you are edge jointing. The cutter is completely exposed, all the time, by at least the thickness of your work piece since you have to move the guard away from the fence that far. My "new" 14" Mini Max has a pork chop guard (I guess that's what they outfitted them with for the US market 25+ years ago.) and I like it a lot. I think I like it better. There is minimal and often zero blade exposure when you slide the work into the guard. BUT, the knives are exposed to the full width of your work piece as it clears the guard at the end of the cut. To me, that's 50% better than the Euro style guard.

John

[Richard Shaefer]

N/p, keep us posted. That machine needs a good home!

A 5hp rotary phase converter only costs around $375 from American Rotary. A static one goes for around $125.

so this past weekend I literally spent a day making a 'footprint' out of plywood from the Felder website for a A3-41 and there is literally NO WAY that monster is gonna fit in my little 17x20 shop, and I thought about reorganizing everything in there just to make it fit. not gotta happen. This is a shame, because he's still got that machine and I think he'd deal on it a bit with some prodding. I'm gonna have to look for something smaller.

[John Sanford]

Of the three, I'd go with the Hammer, with Silent Cutter head. And save to bump to 12".

That said, I managed to find a used MiniMax 12" unit for $1,200. Needless to say, I jumped on it. Even after I upgrade to a Byrd head, I'll be into it for less than 1/2 the cost of a new machine. Keep in mind that there are used equipment dealers out there as well, you may want to search them out and keep an eye on them.

[Prashun Patel]

Richard,

I too inquired about and strongly considered that Philly J/P but nixxed it because it required 3phase and it was too large.

I ended up buying the Hammer A3-31 with silent cutter head.

I like the capacity and footprint. Know that the biggest capacity issue with any jointer or planer isn't the machine's footprint, but the infeed/outfeed clearance. You need clearance, yet support at the jointing height, and you need clearance and support at the planing height.

I love this machine so far.

I don't know your location but if you are near central NJ, PM me and you are welcome to come over and give it a spin.

[Peter Kelly]

That's a too bad, seems like a 17'x20' shop is a not too bad size either. I got the mobility kit from MiniMax with my FS 41 and made it work in my 15' x 25' shoebox.

http://i.imgur.com/TlMGbi7.jpg

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim. I'm not convinced the Euro guard is any better than the pork chop style. My Inca had a Euro style guard. I used that machine for 25 years so I know it's ins and outs. One of its deficiencies is when you are edge jointing. The cutter is completely exposed, all the time, by at least the thickness of your work piece since you have to move the guard away from the fence that far. My "new" 14" Mini Max has a pork chop guard (I guess that's what they outfitted them with for the US market 25+ years ago.) and I like it a lot. I think I like it better. There is minimal and often zero blade exposure when you slide the work into the guard. BUT, the knives are exposed to the full width of your work piece as it clears the guard at the end of the cut. To me, that's 50% better than the Euro style guard.

John

I never edge joint, so that small exposure when edge jointing isn't a factor for me. But even if it is, it's a very narrow space compared to what gets exposed with a porkchop when face jointing. (I also blew through two of the MM orange porkchops between machine purchase and when they could source me the Euro/Bridge guard.

One other thing I love about the Euro/Bridge guard is bringing a board back over it for the next pass...it's a smooth operation.

That said, it's nice to have choices!

[John Gornall]

I wish I had both types of guards and could switch back and forth. When jointing a 6X6 the bridge guard is up 6 inches or out 6 inches. When face jointing a 3 X 12 the bridge guard is up 3 inches all the way across. In these cases I would rather have a pork chop. For 4/4 stock the bridge guard is good. Safety is always specific to the job at hand and no one guard can do it all whether it's a jointer or table saw. Be safe out there.

[John Gornall]

I was just emailed a link to:

"Suvamatic Jointer Guard"
check out the youtube video on this guard - impressive - I wonder how much they cost.

[David T gray]

I wish I had both types of guards and could switch back and forth. When jointing a 6X6 the bridge guard is up 6 inches or out 6 inches. When face jointing a 3 X 12 the bridge guard is up 3 inches all the way across. In these cases I would rather have a pork chop. For 4/4 stock the bridge guard is good. Safety is always specific to the job at hand and no one guard can do it all whether it's a jointer or table saw. Be safe out there.

i built this slightly expensive euro guard i think it cost me about $100 after building it twice . since the guard can be removed i have 4 sizes of guard 4'' 8'' 12'' and 15'' it deflects about 1/16th with the 15'' guard and closest it can get to the blades are 3/8th its real wide 4'' there is no chance u could put your finger into the blade. to mount it i just used the mortising holes which were m10 took about 1 hour to put together. saved me $50 and works way better then the stock euro guard would have since u can change the guards length so its never in the way. ohh i also spring loaded it so it can close if edge jointing but i never use itis finicky

you can also see on the left the first revision of the lift for the planer table that used a dc motor i scrapped it for a stepper motor b/c it was not accurate enough to much fidgeting with it to get it where i wanted it.


327186

[John TenEyck]

I wish I had both types of guards and could switch back and forth. When jointing a 6X6 the bridge guard is up 6 inches or out 6 inches. When face jointing a 3 X 12 the bridge guard is up 3 inches all the way across. In these cases I would rather have a pork chop. For 4/4 stock the bridge guard is good. Safety is always specific to the job at hand and no one guard can do it all whether it's a jointer or table saw. Be safe out there.


Well said. Those are exactly the issues I disliked about the Euro guard on my Inca. With the pork chop guard as long as both your hands on are the outfeed table side when the board leaves the cutter head I don't a problem no matter what piece of wood it is. Your solution is pretty clever if one wanted both options.

John

[Erik Loza]

327186

That is awesome.

Erik

[Art Mann]

The actual cost of driving, versus the cost of buying gasoline is quite large. Most companies pay $.50 or so per mile for someone driving their own vehicle and they assume it is a break even proposition. There is no way in the world I would commit to driving 600 miles round trip, possibly staying overnight, and spending $300 in extra fuel, maintenance and depreciation unless I was already quite certain that the equipment was in the condition I expected.The seller's idea of "almost new" condition could be my idea of "heavily used and needing rebuild" condition. This is not a hypothetical situation for me. On one occasion, I went and looked at a Parks 12 inch thickness planer that was advertised to be in working condition only to find that the bed was so rusted that it would take a machinist to surface plane it to get it in shape and the transmission was frozen up so the pulley wheel to the motor wouldn't rotate. On another occasion, I made a deal with a person to buy a Performax drum sander. The next day I went to get it and he had already sold it to someone else overnight. Those experiences aren't saving money. They are wasting money.


You have to be willing to look further than 100 miles if you want to find a specific machine. I considered myself lucky to find the Mini Max I bought only 300 miles away. The price was so low compared to a new one that the $200 in gas and trailer rental to go get it still made a great deal - like 40% of the cost of a comparable new machine. Prior to finding that one I talked with a guy in MN about his machine. The cost to ship it to the Niagara Falls area, which I think is about 1000 miles, was about $400 - still not a deal breaker.

Anyone can buy a new machine if you have the money. It takes a little more work to find a good used one but to me the cost savings makes it well worth the effort. And keep in mind, you often get a bunch of extras thrown in for free or pennies on the dollar. I got a mobile base, knife setting jig, a complete set of wrenches, extra knives, extra belt, extra capacitor, and some other stuff I can't remember. At about 40% of the price of a comparable new machine. The machine looks new and required no repairs, nor any alignment work. Nearly 30 years old and the alignment is still perfect. I hear people talking about having to adjust a new machine to get it into alignment. It makes a lot more sense to me to buy a machine that was designed and built so that it would be in alignment when it was put together. Of the three machines the OP listed, I'll bet the Felder stands head and shoulders above the others in that regard.

John

[John TenEyck]

The actual cost of driving, versus the cost of buying gasoline is quite large. Most companies pay $.50 or so per mile for someone driving their own vehicle and they assume it is a break even proposition. There is no way in the world I would commit to driving 600 miles round trip, possibly staying overnight, and spending $300 in extra fuel, maintenance and depreciation unless I was already quite certain that the equipment was in the condition I expected.The seller's idea of "almost new" condition could be my idea of "heavily used and needing rebuild" condition. This is not a hypothetical situation for me. On one occasion, I went and looked at a Parks 12 inch thickness planer that was advertised to be in working condition only to find that the bed was so rusted that it would take a machinist to surface plane it to get it in shape and the transmission was frozen up so the pulley wheel to the motor wouldn't rotate. On another occasion, I made a deal with a person to buy a Performax drum sander. The next day I went to get it and he had already sold it to someone else overnight. Those experiences aren't saving money. They are wasting money.

I never said buying a used machine was not without risk, or effort. But, so far, I've never had an experience like yours. And to say that it costs you any more than the cost of your gas, tolls, food, etc. to go pick up a machine is an argument that just doesn't hold water to me. I own the vehicle anyway. I'm going to trade it after so many miles. How I allocate those miles is my decision. The major stationary machines in my shop are all used, with some I'm the third or fourth owner. Never got a lemon yet. If you don't want to drive to pick up the machine, have it shipped; in some cases that could be far cheaper. If the seller isn't willing to send you detailed and up close photos of the machine, that is your clue to walk away. If they will, and if they will openly tell you of any known issues, then you can generally trust the machine will be as described when you get it. If you minimize the risks you can get some great machines for well less than half of new. That is reason enough for me to pursue them.

John

[Ron Brese]

I'm typically an old iron kind of guy having recently restored two older Powermatic machines but I was faced with this same dilemma and there is no old iron version of these type machines.

One thing I considered is the low number of carbide inserts on the Grizzly machines. About half the number as on comparable machines. I'm convinced that has to make a difference.

Like everyone else I really wanted the Hammer but frankly couldn't justify it given the amount of recreational woodworking I have time to pursue. I finally opted for the standard Jet with the straight knives. If I want to upgrade to an insert head later I can get the Byrd head that contains more inserts than any of the machines in this price range come with from the factory. I'm pretty picky and I fully expected to be underwhelmed by the Jet machine. I have been pleasantly surprised and delighted with the Jet machine. Maybe I was just lucky but mine was adjusted quite well right out of the box and I had to do no tweaking to get straight flat results. Your results may vary.

Ron

[Curt Harms]

I'm pretty picky and I fully expected to be underwhelmed by the Jet machine. I have been pleasantly surprised and delighted with the Jet machine. Maybe I was just lucky but mine was adjusted quite well right out of the box and I had to do no tweaking to get straight flat results. Your results may vary.

I've read elsewhere that there was a run of Jet J/Ps that had issues with jointer bed mounting where it was difficult to adjust and keep the jointer beds coplanar. I don't have machinist grade setup tools but my jointer beds check pretty well with aluminum extrusion and feeler gauges. More importantly the wood coming off it is flat & square. Some people want Mercedes/BMW/Audi, others are perfectly happy with Toyota or Hyundai. It's great to have the choice.

[Peter Kelly]

Richard,

I too inquired about and strongly considered that Philly J/P but nixxed it because it required 3phase and it was too large.The owner of that machine must be browsing this forum as he seems to have raised the listing price to $3,000(!) I think he's going to be sitting it for quite a while longer.

[rudy de haas]

It seems to me that:

1 - if you want a 12" unit, then you'll never really be happy with the 10" Hammer. No matter how good it is, you'll eventually psych yourself up to replace it.

2 - the Jet and the Grizzly aren't that different, except in price - and both take third party heads with more inserts if you need them - so that choice probably comes to whether you believe the Jet premium will pay off in downstream support.

3 - you can make or buy improvements on the pork chop for both machines if it turns out you need them.

4 - at the 12" and wider size range I'd be looking at more power - it depends on your usage, but if you use the machine a lot the extra oomph you get with the larger mini-max type products may be worthwhile even if it does require some rewiring. Think about what you do on the machine, and, if in doubt (i.e. you don't already have experience with the heavier 5/67HP units), find somebody near by with a larger machine and see if you can try it out.