Pole barn interior framing and insulation ???

[Scott Dorrer]

Finally have the structure complete and power reconnected on my new shop. Now deciding on how to frame out the interior and have a question about insulation.

This is the building....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/boatrman/Shop/20150825_165705_zpsgexft7pm.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/boatrman/media/Shop/20150825_165705_zpsgexft7pm.jpg.html)


And for the interior framing. Any pros/cons to framing for the interior walls between the poles,,,, basically vertical as a normal stick built vs. horizontal between the poles. Also, I don't see a need to use 2x6's and leaning toward 2x4's.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/boatrman/Shop/20151210_123239_zpsu33icbrk.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/boatrman/media/Shop/20151210_123239_zpsu33icbrk.jpg.html)


And then insulation.... the builder covered the exterior with vinyl backed sheet insulation before installing the steel sheathing. So now there is already a vapor barrier. When I insulate with fiberglass batts, should I use faced or unfaced?

Tnx

[Mike Heidrick]

I have the same setup. I am using kraft based vapor barrier on my R19 batts. Installing those into book cased 2X6s I kreg screwed into the wall girts between my posts.

Here is some info on air barrier and vapor barrier. I figure the kraft paper will help keep moisture from reaching the steel from the inside.
http://www.ashireporter.org/homeinspection/articles/air-barriers-versus-vapor-barriers/14631

[Scott Dorrer]

I have the same setup. I am using kraft based vapor barrier on my R19 batts. Installing those into book cased 2X6s I kreg screwed into the wall girts between my posts.

Here is some info on air barrier and vapor barrier. I figure the kraft paper will help keep moisture from reaching the steel from the inside.
http://www.ashireporter.org/homeinspection/articles/air-barriers-versus-vapor-barriers/14631


I looked through your thread yesterday. I have the same dimension building up in NY that I stick framed on the slab with radiant heat.

Was there any deciding factor in going horizontal vs vertical with studding. And I was thinking that you could have saved all the hole drilling if you used 2x4's instead of 2x6's.

As for the insulation,,,,, my building already has a vapor barrier. It's sheet insulated with a vinyl barrier on the outside before the metal sheathing was installed. So I'm wondering if the second vapor barrier would cause problems.

[Jim Andrew]

I fixed up an old pole building for a shop. Just put down a treated 2x4 on the inside and studded it up with 2x4's. Slid styrofoam between the horizontal nailers and used r13 batts. Had I been able to use styrofoam under the concrete, it would have been a much warmer building. Still considering putting a wood floor down with styrofoam underneath. I used kraft faced insulation, even though the styrofoam itself is a vapor barrier.

[Jim Laumann]

Here is what I did in mine....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?152198-The-saga-of-the-Money-Pit-err-shop-(pix)&highlight=

[John K Jordan]

Scott, looking good!

My shop is 6x6 posts with double 2x10 beams, 9' ceilings. I glued and nailed PT plates to the floor and built stud walls 16" OC. I used 2x6 to keep the interior walls even and for more insulation space. 1/2" painted OSB sheathing+1/2" smart side panels outside, 1/2" ply for paneling inside, R19 bats. Quite sturdy and well insulated.

327013


327014

As for insulation, I didn't see where you live. You might check with your local building inspector. Insulation with the vapor barrier out is the norm to prevent cold air from the outside causing condensation in the batt. I read the building construction researchers are finding that in the deep south this might be a problem in humid climates if the building is air conditioned for a large part of the year. With faced batts, cold air from inside can cause condensation. Vapor barrier will slow but not stop humidity. Might be worth checking into.

JKJ

[lawrence dosson]

on my pole barn I ran them horizontal like mike did but I just used 2x4 s I placed them flush to the side of my poles 6X6s so I have flat wall instead of the pole protruding 2 inches
leaves a space behind the 2X4 but I do not see any harm to this I used 6 inch batts and stuffed insulation in all the empty space like behind the poles
I also have foam board under my siding and under my wood floor which is placed over the cement
last years heat bill Michigan winter less than $200 for propane I heat 24 7 turn it down at night do not skimp on insulation unless you have a free source of heat

[Scott Dorrer]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have decided to frame vertically with 2x4 lumber. Framing with 2x6 at this point seems overkill as the only points I need to achieve are hanging cabinets/tool racks and installing interior sheathing. Another point is that 2x4 will make wiring installation easier with less holes that need to be drilled. I liked the simplicity of going horizontal but a couple people have touched on the fact that it makes hanging things on the walls a bit trickier.

As for the insulation, I'm still kicking that around. My concern here is trapping moisture between 2 vapor barriers if using kraft faced. It was suggested that I ask the building inspector,,,, he and I haven't had a good relationship through this building process. I already have my COC and he can kiss my azz from here on. I think I may just call an insulation company and see what they recommend

By the way this shop is being built in western NC in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. A/C will be just as important as heating.

[Tom Deutsch]

That is one impressive man cave.

[Mike Heidrick]

Scott are you placing the 2X4s against the wall girts or mounting them equal to the post face?

I am sure I do things the most work possible. My 2X6s are kreg screwed horizontal to the posts and wall girts 24" on center. Wiring is ran and stapled to the 2X6s, and insulation installed. Then I am kreg screwing in a 2X6 vertically between the bookcased 2X6s with the face of the 2X flush to the outer edge. I am installing 1.5" marine grade plywood walls (solid sheet and the 9" slats make for 1.5" thick walls) in 48" wide 32" tall sections - they are home made slatwall walls. These panels get attached to the post, the vertical faced 2X6s between the posts, and the horizontal book cased 2X6s. Will have zero issue attaching anything anywhere and will have ultimate positionable slats for french cleat attached items anywhere. I am using adjustable plastic electrical boxes to have my outlets flush with the 1.5" walls. So I am sure way overkill, tons more work than needed, 2X6s cost more, the 177 book cased 2x6s all got 2" holes for wiring and kreg drilled about 12 times each, the extra romex cost incured for extra romex to deal with thick walls, kreg screw cost, and adjust boxes are $2.20 vs $0.19. But doing it myself means I can do it the way I want and pay cash for it as I go. I in no way tell folks do it my way.

I am using Kraft faced on the inside to keeps the moisture from in the building from condensating inside the wall when the moisture reaches the steel / bubble wrap/ vinyl wrap. That steel is a different temp due to being outside. So I use my db wrap on the outside to keep the air from entering the wall from the outside but use the kraft faced insulation inside to protect the walls from the moisture in my shop. Its the same way my house is built, it uses batt insulation and tyvek wrap.

[John Ziebron]

My pole barn has 12 foot walls with 6 x 6 posts that are 8 foot on center. I chose to use 2 x 6 x 12 footers to go vertical equally spaced between the main posts. I can't imagine taking the time to do Kreg holes. After all, no one sees them after insulation and wall covering. I just used 3 inch deck screws screwed on an angle into the wall girts. And because of splitting the distance between the 6 x 6s two 24 inch bats fit perfectly between a main post and a 2 x 6. My barn has prefab trusses so I ran all the wiring above and then over to wall section where I needed outlets. The only holes I had to drill for wiring is through the 1/2 inch OSB that I used for the wall covering (I used metal surface mount boxes). Of course I had to preplan where all my machines would go so I could make sure I had a 110 or 220 outlet there. Plus I have three 220v drops from the ceiling for my tablesaw, jointer and bandsaw which are all away from the walls.

[Scott Dorrer]

Scott are you placing the 2X4s against the wall girts or mounting them equal to the post face?




2x4s will be flush with the interior face of the 6x6s.

[Scott Dorrer]

That is one impressive man cave.


Actually it will house my business. I restore antique boats and build replicas. Also dabble in motorcycle and old machinery. Center bay will be for the current project, right bay will be the "wood shop", left bay will house the metal machines (lathe and mill for now). Upstairs over the center bay will be an office, bathroom and guest apartment.


This is quite a down size for me as the shop space itself is 42x36 not including the 12' open wings. My shop up in NY is 40x60 with a 10x40 wing off one side. And I also have a 40x80 pole barn for just storage. So I'm going from a total square footage of 6000, to a total of 2880.

Anyone looking for a great shop in Petersburg, NY???


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/boatrman/DSCN2680.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/boatrman/media/DSCN2680.jpg.html)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/boatrman/Stuff/20150604_123732_zpsbixljvnu.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/boatrman/media/Stuff/20150604_123732_zpsbixljvnu.jpg.html)

[Jerry Olexa]

I envy the size of your workshop!!! Good work!

[Todd Burch]

GORGEOUS BOAT!! Nice shop too. ;)

[Mike Heidrick]

Do you plan to leave a gap between the back of the 2X4 and the wall girts? I think it might be more work to fill that than just use a 2X6. Only marginal cost more if using construction 2X6s.

Checked tonight at Menards and a 8' 2X6 select construction stud is less than $1 more than an 8' 2X4 stud - so a 1.50 more for a 12'. Attaching it to the wall girts would tie them all together making a stronger wall. You wiring would pass in the area your wall girts make - no holes to drill going vertical. I don't see a down side shy of about $100 in cost. You cant buy that additional wall strength for $100 later.

Going horizontal reduces the number of air gaps caused by the wall girts to just at the posts plus any holes drilled for wires. Ruinning vertical you will have gaps to fill every 16" or 24" depending how close you frame.

[Scott Dorrer]

I already started framing today so not going backward. I'm not too worried at this point about that air gap behind the stud. There is already 2" of insulation on the exterior of the girts before the steel was installed. Don't forget,,, I'm in NC, not IL.

Also,,, with going vertical I can hang anything at any height without having to be constrained by the 2' spacing.

[Scott Dorrer]

GORGEOUS BOAT!! Nice shop too. ;)

Thanks.

Those are 2 different boats... the one in the water is a 1927 26' Chris Craft,,,,, the one on the trailer is a 1934 22' Chris Craft

[Todd Burch]

I noticed they were different. I like the 27 the best! Would love to ride in one someday.

[Jim Andrew]

When you already have a vapor barrier inside the wall, it will trap the moisture there if you do not install another on the inside of the building. So do install kraft faced insulation in your wall. Mine has had the same for over 10 years with no problem.

[Tom M King]

I've seen similar situations where that inner layer of vapor barrier would have x's cut all in it. I don't know if it did anything or not, but it did render it non-continuous

[Ian Moone]

I would caution about the use of Styrofoam as insulation. There's no disputing that it's a fantastic insulator! Not much beats it for that insulating property!

The "note of caution" is in its fire rating! In the event of a fire, the rate of spread of fire in Styrofoam is UN-believeable and the fumes also very toxic.

Your steel cladding gives you a good degree of protection against embers attack in a wild fire situation. To have just one ember take down the entire building because it found exposed Styrofoam would be a real shame.

In addition - its also not fuel stable, put a ounce of raw gas into a Styrofoam cup and see what happens to the foam cup. The fuel stability isn't as big an issue for workshop insulation, BUT I see people use it in inappropriate places - e.g. underfloor buoyancy in a boat for eg - where the underfloor fuel tank lives!.
If you want your boat to float when swamped to avoid having to swim for home.. - then fuel being lighter than water tends to float up OUT of under floor fuel tanks thru the air breathers when a boats swamped and that fuel then dissolves your under floor Styrofoam & suddenly your positive bouyancy boat is a anchor sitting on the bottom!.

There are for e.g. more appropriate (read expensive) fire retardant, fuel stable, high density, closed cell, poly-euro-thane foams that will do a similar job (albeit at a greater expense) but obviate some of the risks of Styrofoam.

Cheers

[Greg R Bradley]

Using two vapor barriers in a wall can be a recipe for disaster. I would proceed very carefully as the steel outside and foam inside with the barrier was probably built without a plan for adding additional insulation inside.

This is all going to depend on your climate and how much you plan to heat and cool the inside space. You are too far from my climate to give any specific recommendation other than you want some more information.

Just remember the more humid side WILL move moisture toward the less humid side. Specifically, higher vapor pressure will move toward lower vapor pressure. With the need to move big items in and out big doors, you can't keep the humidity low inside all the time.

[Scott Dorrer]

Thanks guys..

First,,,, not sure where you guys got side tracked on the foam insulation thing but I do not plan on using any foam.

I've been busy with interior framing and other projects so haven't really given the insulation a lot of thought. I do know that it will be insulated with fiberglass just need to figure out the vapor barrier thing. Really leaning toward getting a couple insulation contractors in for their thoughts.

[Greg R Bradley]

Thanks guys..

First,,,, not sure where you guys got side tracked on the foam insulation thing but I do not plan on using any foam.

I've been busy with interior framing and other projects so haven't really given the insulation a lot of thought. I do know that it will be insulated with fiberglass just need to figure out the vapor barrier thing. Really leaning toward getting a couple insulation contractors in for their thoughts.
Very first post: "And then insulation.... the builder covered the exterior with vinyl backed sheet insulation before installing the steel sheathing. So now there is already a vapor barrier. When I insulate with fiberglass batts, should I use faced or unfaced?"

You may not be adding foam but there already is some, right? Am I missing something?

[Scott Dorrer]

Very first post: "And then insulation.... the builder covered the exterior with vinyl backed sheet insulation before installing the steel sheathing. So now there is already a vapor barrier. When I insulate with fiberglass batts, should I use faced or unfaced?"

You may not be adding foam but there already is some, right? Am I missing something?


Guess I should have elaborated. Vinyl backed fiberglass insulation....... never heard of vinyl backed foam.

http://www.steelbuildinginsulation.com/images%5Cinsul_tabs.gif

[Jim Andrew]

Think they got confused with my posting. I used styrofoam between the girts of my pole barn, then put down a treated plate and framed walls in with vertical 2x4's on 16" centers. I toenailed my studs to the girts to tie the walls together, and used kraft faced r13 batts. Did the job in '04, no problems since.