Beat a Dead Horse

[ken hatch]

While the engineers and metallurgist hash out sharpening PM-V11 steel on another thread, an observation on sharpening some other tool steels:D. I've always liked HC steels for working, mostly because they are easy to sharpen and will give a keen working edge that holds up reasonably well. Life is a trade off in most things, and working edges are one of those thing where if you improve one area some other area ends up in that well known basket. Because HC steel fits my "likes" and work flow I would guess 95% of my tools have HC steel cutters. There are a few exceptions and one is a cheap crank-neck WoodRiver chisel I picked up because I needed one to remove some glue and it was available. Turned out to be one of the most used chisels in the shop.

Anyway Bubba cut to the chase....

I've never paid much attention to sharpening the crank-neck because of its use, when it loaded up with "gunk" or wouldn't remove glue I'd hit it with a couple of the oil stones and go back to work.

When I'm, for whatever reason, trying to avoid being productive I sharpen iron. BTW, my hands have been "black" for the last couple of weeks :o. Finally to the chase: I decided to give the crank-neck some love....Total rejection, it refused my advances. Started out on oil stones with a "green stuff" infused Horse's Butt strop working freehand. Sharp feeling and looking but I decided to break routine and test on some end grain, OK but a lot of effort to pare. A&B'ed with one of my HC chisels, no contest the crank-neck was dull. Humm, what to do?

Pulled out the Shapton Pro's and went through the full progression finishing up on a Gokumyo 20000. Same story....No joy it didn't improve. What the hey, maybe I've lost the freehand touch....where is the new Lie Nielsen honing jig, has to be somewhere. Flattened all the Shapton and the Gokumyo and went at it again using the jig, no difference. The blankety blank will not sharpen.

Bottom line, I've not a clue what steel is used in the chisel, but while it will get sharp enough to remove soft glue and other rough work around the shop it will not get to "working" sharp like a HC chisel such as a Japanese White Steel or a Western O-1.

I guess I'm in the market for a good crank-neck.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

Being one of those engineers I'm not sure you want to hear my opinion, but: I've had good luck with the Narex crank-neck chisels. I think you can get them from a bunch of places, I got mine from LV.

The steel in those is a somewhat unique Cr-Mn alloy (http://www.narexchisels.com/Narex_Chisels/Narex_Cr-Mn_Steel.html). It's comparable to O1 in terms of sharpening, and should be fine with either of your workflows (oilstones+strop or waterstones). I have two caveats:

1. Most of my Narex chisels (bevel-edge, mortise, paring, crank-neck) have required a fair bit of lapping to get to an adequately flat back, though a lot depends on your definition of "adequate".

2. All of my Narex chisels (bevel-edge, paring, crank-necked, mortise) have a tendency to "auto-dub" ever so slightly whenever the primary bevel is reground (you can only detect it when using the polished base as a mirror, and even then it's subtle) . I suspect that they have some residual stress after heat-treatment such that the bases are under compression and the tops are under tension. When you re-grind the primary bevel the tip is no longer held in compression by the metal above it, and curls up a tiny bit. Most people (and even reviewers) don't even seem to notice it, and it's probably not enough to matter, but if you do want to fix it it's small enough that it's easy to lap out. I generally fix it every time I re-grind the crank-necks, because they tend to be used for flat paring cuts.

[ken hatch]

Being one of those engineers I'm not sure you want to hear my opinion, but: I've had good luck with the Narex crank-neck chisels. I think you can get them from a bunch of places, I got mine from LV.

The steel in those is a somewhat unique Cr-Mn alloy (http://www.narexchisels.com/Narex_Chisels/Narex_Cr-Mn_Steel.html). It's comparable to O1 in terms of sharpening, and should be fine with either of your workflows (oilstones+strop or waterstones). I have two caveats:

1. Most of my Narex chisels (bevel-edge, mortise, paring, crank-neck) have required a fair bit of lapping to get to an adequately flat back, though a lot depends on your definition of "adequate".

2. All of my Narex chisels (bevel-edge, paring, crank-necked, mortise) have a tendency to "auto-dub" ever so slightly whenever the primary bevel is reground (you can only detect it when using the polished base as a mirror, and even then it's subtle) . I suspect that they have some residual stress after heat-treatment such that the bases are under compression and the tops are under tension. When you re-grind the primary bevel the tip is no longer held in compression by the metal above it, and curls up a tiny bit. Most people (and even reviewers) don't even seem to notice it, and it's probably not enough to matter, but if you do want to fix it it's small enough that it's easy to lap out. I generally fix it every time I re-grind the crank-necks, because they tend to be used for flat paring cuts.

Patrick,

I should have put a "smiley" at the end of the first sentence. It has been a great discussion and I've picked up a few things by following along for the ride. In fact, I just did it.

Thanks for the recommend, I'll take a look at the Narex crank-necks.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Saitu-San can make you a nice cranked neck chisel :D in K120

[ken hatch]

Saitu-San can make you a nice cranked neck chisel :D in K120

With your help I expect the numbers on my AmEx to burst into flames :).

Did you get several Kiyahisa Bachi Nomi?

[Brian Holcombe]

Hahaha :D

I dont have the patience to wait for Kiyohisa, lol (7 years~), those Bachi nomi are Kikuhiromaru, and they're sweeet.

[bridger berdel]

I made this one from a straight bench chisel.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bridgerb/43197803/in/album-945767/

[Patrick Chase]

I made this one from a straight bench chisel.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bridgerb/43197803/in/album-945767/

Oooh, nice. Did you cut a perfectly good bench chisel for that or find one that was already compromised at the socket/tang?

[bridger berdel]

Oooh, nice. Did you cut a perfectly good bench chisel for that or find one that was already compromised at the socket/tang?

I started with a new "diamond" brand chinese chisel. It has an inlaid cutting edge that takes a good edge and holds it adequately. If I were doing it again I'd start with something vintage.

[Jim Koepke]

If I were doing it again I'd start with something vintage.

Speaking of vintage... Many years ago my purchasing habits were a lot more accumulative. A batch of Buck Brothers cranked neck chisels and gouges was purchased, for what now seems like a pittance, off ebay.

Looks like they are now selling each for what was once paid for a bunch of them.

I do like the crank neck design for working on dados among other things.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Speaking of vintage... Many years ago my purchasing habits were a lot more accumulative. A batch of Buck Brothers cranked neck chisels and gouges was purchased, for what now seems like a pittance, off ebay.

Looks like they are now selling each for what was once paid for a bunch of them.

I do like the crank neck design for working on dadoes among other things.

jtk

What else would I use my crank neck Narex chisels for, beside a dado or slot cross grain? I don't know a thing about metallurgy, but I know when a chisel responds to sharpening. When paring dovetail joints I use my LN or Stanley 750 chisels. Some of the old 750's have soft steel in them, but for the most part they are equal to the LN chisels.

I don't understand what all of these alloys of steel a lot of you talk about is about. Maybe it is an adjunct to woodworking. :) OBTW, the Narex chisels are sharp and will pare cross grain. They feel lighter to me, but maybe that's imagination.

[Jim Koepke]

the Narex chisels are sharp and will pare cross grain.

Being able to cleanly pare across grain is one of many tests for sharpness for chisels and especially for gouges.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

What else would I use my crank neck Narex chisels for, beside a dado or slot cross grain?

Trimming plugs and the like, paring stuff that's too far in from the edge to be accessible to conventional chisels, etc.

[Derek Cohen]

You could always just pare bevel down, riding the bevel ... why it helps not to use a micro secondary bevel on the chisel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

My light hearted post was about the talk of alloys and such in the early part of this string. All of the discussion about alloys had my head spinning. I don't know what the various alloys mentioned are.

I'm not too concerned about it, but (again light hearted) why should I care.

I'm more concerned about how the grain on that piece of sapele I have in the shop will work and whether or I not, I should go get another piece of it before I start a project I have in mind.
After thinking about it, I think I'll go get another piece. Visiting the hardwood lumber company in Houston is like a trip to the candy store. They have a bin of curly walnut . . . hmm.:)

[Patrick Chase]

You could always just pare bevel down, riding the bevel ... why it helps not to use a micro secondary bevel on the chisel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

True, though that requires some actual, you know, *skill* to achieve smooth and accurate results.

[Derek Cohen]

True, though that requires some actual, you know, *skill* to achieve smooth and accurate results.

It does? :eek: I never knew ..... :)

Regards from Perth

Derek