Using a skew on a bowl or large diameter turning?

[Brice Rogers]

I have used a skew in the slicing or shear mode on spindles with down-hill cuts, beads, etc. It produces a great finish. But when I try it with larger diameter things like a bowl I typically get some exciting catches. :eek: So, by default, I almost always use a gouge in a shear mode on bowls.

Is there some special technique or trick for doing shear cuts with a skew on larger diameters?

[Roger Chandler]

Most of the sound advice I have heard over the years is to NEVER use a skew to turn a bowl! :eek: The skew is not a bowl tool! There may be a little bit of tenon work, or finessing the rim for decoration, but for the body of the bowl.........YIKES!!! Maybe as a negative rake scraper and with very much care and fine tool control........you can accomplish the same things with much safer tools on a bowl than a skew!

[Brice Rogers]

Thanks Roger. I was not sure if it was my lack of skill or just a bad idea. I'll save the skew for peeling tenons, perhaps some beading and small spindle work - - but I'll skip trying to do regular shear cuts. :)

[Reed Gray]

One would think that a skew could be used on bowls. I mean, you can use gouges on spindles, so why not??? I would guess that more than anything else, on bowls is is much more difficult to keep the sweet spot cutting the wood. By sweet spot, to me, that means that you are cutting with the lower 1/2 or 1/3 of the blade, and if you get above the middle, the tool/cutting edge is not in balance/directly over the tool rest, and it tips over/catches...

robo hippy

[Roger Chandler]

One would think that a skew could be used on bowls. I mean, you can use gouges on spindles, so why not??? I would guess that more than anything else, on bowls is is much more difficult to keep the sweet spot cutting the wood. By sweet spot, to me, that means that you are cutting with the lower 1/2 or 1/3 of the blade, and if you get above the middle, the tool/cutting edge is not in balance/directly over the tool rest, and it tips over/catches...

robo hippy

A catch with a skew on a bowl will likely turn into a VERY bad experience. Unless a turner is extra proficient with a skew, and has a lot of fine tool control, it would likely be inviting disaster, especially if it is on finished cuts on thin bowls.....the flex in the wood from centrifugal force could induce a catch of major proportions.

I have heard of bowls exploding :eek: with turners trying to get a good cut off the skew to avoid sanding........not saying it cannot be done, but for the average or beginning turner, they should avoid the problem altogether.

[John Grace]

It does raise an interesting side question. We're told by experienced turners from the very beginning don't use a skew on a bowl, etc. But here is the rub...whether spindle, bowl, or gigantic boulder...round is still round. Meaning, there must be a transitional 'sweet spot' or something that suggests bigger than this should be done with a gouge, etc. I don't do a lot of spindle work but have grown comfortable with skews just for the fun of it but this is still a question that has puzzled me in the past.

[David C. Roseman]

Yep, round is round, whether a bowl or spindle, but the grain orientation is very different, and that's the main problem, as I understand it. With a bowl blank cut from a half-round, you are trying to pare either directly into or across end-grain all the time, and the long, flat cutting edge of the skew doesn't like it. With a bowl gouge, the arc of the grind means less cutting edge is in contact at any given moment, making things more forgiving.

[John K Jordan]

Related to the contact area: I use a bigger skew on bigger diameter spindles. I would not try to use a 1/2" skew on a 4" diameter spindle. No way to keep the pointy end away!

Even if the grain were not an issue (and I see the point though I'm not totally convinced since I've turned some very wild grain spindles with skews), it seems to me that you would need a HUGE skew for a large diameter. I saw a John Lucas skew demo once where he used an axe as a skew - maybe that would be about the right size!

JKJ

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

IMO - it's a matter of geometry.

with a spindle, I raise the tool rest just slightly above center so I can lay the skew over. ON finishing cuts - it leaves a fantastic surface.

now way to repeat that type of movement with a bowl blank...unless you're turning 2-3" diameter bowls.

[Steve Mawson]

Skew on a bowl, good way to see a health care professional! Not even close to worth it.

[John Beaver]

A Skew and a Spindle Roughing Gouge have a very small tang where the blade meets the handle. Neither is designed to handle the force of cutting across endgrain on a bowl. They are for spindle work ONLY !!! The round bar of a bowl gouge has the strength to handle end grain. I even had this discussion with the master of the skew, Alan Lacer, and he would not use a skew on a bowl.

As to doing shear scraping cuts with a skew on a bowl, that is not entirely illogical to me, but the tip would be very vulnerable to catching, and you still have the issue with the small tang. A gouge is rounded so much safer. I scraper with a good burr at a shear angle would be another good choice.

[Geoff Whaling]

Brice, the average Joe Turner is flat out controlling a skew chisel on traditional spindle work so they really don't have much prospect of controlling a skew on a bowl.

Catches from using a skew chisel in cutting mode on a bowl won't get any less exciting no matter how much experience or tool control you have. A tool is simply a means to present and control the cutting edge. Some tool designs are much easier to control in particular applications and therefore much more predictable and reliable i.e. "safer" to use. Some turners can also use tools in ways that they were never intended for or that few other turners can emulate. Just because a few turners have amazing tool control and can control a tool does not mean that it is generally a safe way to turn for the typical turner.

Before fluted bowl gouges were introduced in the early 1980's turners used mostly hook tools or forged gouges to turn bowls. Many of those forms of turning have fallen out of favour because there are now better ways to turn.

Through centuries of wood turning trial and error our forebears have discovered that in general using things like skews on bowls isn't a very smart idea as it usually results in a damaged bowl blank or tool and / or injury to the typical turner. Using a tanged spindle roughing gouge (SRG) on bowls is also not very smart for the reasons John Beaver describes.

Good tool control usually involves a good working knowledge of how a particular tool profile will perform in the grain orientation of the blank. Ian (Robbo) Robertson's clip on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY explains this pretty well and illustrates why SRG's and Skews should not be used on bowls. A Bowl Gouge with a supported cut is far safer and easier on the body. The 2'50" shows very clearly what will happen if a turner continues to use a SRG or skew on a bowl.

John Lucas also has a pretty good explanation at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd988yk6lSE.

Now a skew chisel used as a negative rake scraper on the exterior of a bowl is an entirely different proposition. It can be used with excellent control but it is really a negative rake scraper masquerading as a skew chisel in that application.

[Reed Gray]

The tapered tang is pretty much a thing of the past. If you want a really large SRG, you can get them with that particular tang, but most of the smaller ones, 1 inch or so diameter, are now made from solid bar stock. I don't think any one makes any skew chisels with a tapered forged tang any more. That being said, if you look closely at Robbo's video of his spectacular catch with the SRG, it comes not from the tool being faulty or using the 'wrong' tool, but from bad 'presentation'. Yes, I have watched it a bunch of times trying to figure out exactly what caused the catch. He approaches the cut in the traditional method taught for using the SRG on spindles. Tool is square to the work and tool rest. You start with the handle down, bumping the heel of the bevel. You raise the handle till it starts to cut. This is a bevel rubbing cut, is controlable, and is very similar to the 'peeling' cut used on spindle turning. Just thinking about this cut on bowls makes my sphincters pucker, but I did play with it at very slow speeds, bevel rubbing, flutes straight up, and handle way down. He does comment how it took him a couple of hours to get the catch. So, what caused the catch, and why isn't this the same problem you have when using this cut on spindles? When the catch occurs, he is extended way out off the tool rest. Then he raises the handle a bit. When he raises the handle, he comes off the bevel. As soon as the tool comes off the bevel, it instantly becomes a scraper, and we all know that when using scrapers, you keep the handle angled down so if there is a catch, the cutting edge falls out of the wood. When it is pointing up into the spin of the wood you get a massive catch because the tool can only dig in deeper before it comes out. Most of the time on spindles, they are much smaller diameter, and the tool rest is much closer to the wood so the forces involved are not nearly as great. If you play around with the peeling cut, using a parting tool or bedan type tool, and then just do a plunge cut with a more scraping type cut, you can feel a big difference in control issues. Because of the smaller nature of things, it generally isn't as spectacular as Robbo's cut. If Robbo had been using a standard bowl gouge, he would have had the same catch. Bevel angle, size, nose profile are non issues, you still would have gotten the catch, though the more modern tools would not have broken or bent as badly. So, how do you avoid this situation? When using a SRG on any spindle, I never approach it square on with the flutes up. I always approach it with the tool at about a 45 degree angle to the axis of spin, and the flutes are rolled over and I cut with the wood. Even if you come off the bevel, you won't get a catch anything like Robbo's.

robo hippy

[Michael Mills]

I agree with the other as far as a standard skew. However there is one caveat and that is the bowl skew scraper.

Packard calls theirs a "L/R Handed Skew Scraper", Woodworkers Supply calls theirs a "Heavy LH/RH Skew Scraper",
John Jordon calls his a "Double Ended Sheer Scraper".
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-pkrd-hdsks
http://woodworker.com/1-12-heavy-square-scraper-mssu-142-244.asp?search=&searchmode=2
http://www.johnjordanwoodturning.com/John_Jordan_Woodturning/Shear_Scraper.html

It is only used for the final passes much like a sheer scrape with the bowl gouge. Del Stubbs shows using one in his early 80's video and John Jordan shows using one in this video. I am still trying to get the control down; maybe I just can't concentrate enough. In Lyle Jamieson's presentation of the bowl gouge and in Jordan's presentation of his sheer scraper both made comments on the concentration needed; one stating "sometimes you forget to breath" and the other "that it was difficult to talk and make the cut".
I've had no luck with the bowl gouge due to the handle being so low (I think) and not a lot more with the bowl scraper. Maybe I should just stick to sandpaper.:D

Brian Havens has a youtube video with his take which is grinding a wide tool with both a L and R (instead of one angle) so the tool can just be flipped over to cut either way.

[Geoff Whaling]

That being said, if you look closely at Robbo's video of his spectacular catch with the SRG, it comes not from the tool being faulty or using the 'wrong' tool, but from bad 'presentation'.
robo hippy

Reed, I can’t dispute much of your comments and I agree that “presentation” of the cutting edge was the cause of the catch. :eek: I know Ian (Robbo) personally and have discussed with him taking one for the team. He admits even with his vast experience that he was fortunate to have got off so lightly, he also makes it very clear in the clip. These are serious errors in judgement that can easily lead to a visit to emergency rooms.

However I tend to disagree with you about selecting a tool which vastly improves success.

Tool design and tool selection (SRG or Skew Chisel vs Bowl Gouge), sharpening angles, tool presentation, overhang length, even tool rest profile, turners experience etc all contribute significantly to success. Small changes or nuances in presentation angle can often make huge improvements to success & safety. Learning to take advantage of the improved performance features tool designs, sharpening profiles / angles, even tool alloys is all a part of the wood turning journey.

Yes, the cutting edge is the work horse, any other feature of the tool, i.e. the flute shape, the tang (forged or milled), the stock material (round, flat, forged, milled), are all design or manufacturing features that make the tool / cutting edge last longer; allow the turner to “better” present the cutting edge to the wood, more comfortably / ergonomically, or with more predictablity, and consistent performance results i.e. “more safely”. ;)

The tool design / manufacturing process / steel alloy etc play a very significant part in the overall performance and longevity of the tool, i.e. a forged or milled tang developing fractures from constantly being used with extended overhangs, interrupted cuts etc.

Some designs and manufacturing process are relatively recent developments in the context of wood turning history so I’m very thankful that I have a choice between Powder Metallurgy (PM) alloys in skew or gouge profiles in preference to hand forged carbon steel hook tools, or shallow fluted continental gouges. :D

There are plenty of videos about on Youtube showing how a cutting edge will cut, even Jacques Vesery using “alternate turning tools” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYODmS6Jt2Q . Jacques tool presentation of the axe in his clip highlights a very good point - why did he change his initial presentation from handle down to handle above? Because he thought it offered an advantage in presentation of the cutting edge - but his comment "don't try this at home" is good advice.

Most of the turners featured have a very good understanding of the mechanics of tool cutting performance so they can put a "cutting edge " to work. But using a shovel/spade, car/truck spring etc is not very ergonomic and I guess the steel alloy may not hold an edge for long. Rolling a bead or cutting a cove with a spade may present just a few challenges. Hmm .. out with the angle grinder, hey presto I’ve created a narrower spade (or a lighter truck spring), which now looks a lot like a very thin skew chisel, now if I make it from a bit thicker (or thinner) stock it may last a bit longer …. and be easier, or more comfortable to use :rolleyes:



I agree with the other as far as a standard skew. However there is one caveat and that is the bowl skew scraper.


Michael, very good points all of which I agree with. Terminology or the lack of standard terminology for tool types / designs creates problems in communicating our thoughts and in explaining to a novice that what looked like a "skew" from a distance really isn't a "skew chisel."

There is a huge difference in tool performance, i.e. safety, between a "skew chisel" and a "skew shaped scraper." Brice's opening "I have used a skew in the slicing or shear mode on spindles" leads me to interpret that as a conventional skew chisel, but is it an oval skew with a curved cutting edge (eg an Alan Lacer skew) or a robust section heavy bodied skew (eg a Thompson) etc. Personally I would never use an oval skew chisel as a negative rake scraper as the cross section is far to light/thin and much prefer the thickness of something like a Thompson skew. :)

[Reed Gray]

Geoff, I think we are on the same page about tool selection. You can get good results with just about any tool, but it is a lot easier to use the correct tool. I do hope to be able to go down under some day just to have a play date with Robbo (he is Robbo, and I am robo....).

I do think the term 'skew' when applied to a scraper is just plain wrong... Yes, the nose sweep is skewed off to one side, but in no way is it a skew chisel, which can easily lead to confusion for those who don't know better. I attribute that to 'marketing'. Those straight edges shear scrapers puzzle me as well, fine for the outside of a bowl, but worthless on the inside, and any standard scraper will do just fine, and a bit of sweep to the edge makes it work better.

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

...and any standard scraper will do just fine, and a bit of sweep to the edge makes it work better.

Then they couldn't sell all those different scrapers to tool collectors, er, turners who must have one of each in the catalog.

JKJ

[Geoff Whaling]

Then they couldn't sell all those different scrapers to tool collectors, er, turners who must have one of each in the catalog.

JKJ


So true! We can never have enough tools, and the next one will solve all our problems. ;)

[Prashun Patel]

I think I have been doing it wrong or am not using what I think is a skew. I have a Sorby oval skew chisel that I use for some finishing cuts on the outsides of bowls. I don't use them inside. But for outsides, the corners are not in jeopardy of catching except near the tenon, which is kind of like a thick spindle anyway. I especially like them near this region because the point sharply defines the shoulder there as well.

[Ralph Lindberg]

For us mortals, using a skew on the exterior of a bowl, as a skew, is something we should never do.

But for people well past us... this 1926 short has been posted more then once, but watch the final cuts he does on the outside at the end. That certainly looks like a skew to me.
But I would never try it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

He's using a skew as a scraper, not as a skew. No different than using any other scraper.

[Michael Mills]

The reason I brought up the "bowl skew" was from the OP's statement "I have used a skew in .... It produces a great finish." He states he does use a bowl gouge but maybe he is not getting the finish he wants.
I tried a lot of times to use a gouge in the sheer scrape position (handle very low as per Grumbine and Jamieson). I typically made it worse and came out with a Ruffles potato chip surface. This may be due to 1. it just felt awkward 2. felt I had less control 3. shorter stance movement. By number 3 I mean with the handle at my waist I can move (sway) a foot or more; with the handle way down the smooth movement may be half that much. And of course 4th just being a iss poor turner.

I do agree with the comments about too many tools. All of my scrapers and skews were 20+ year old Sorby, while nice, not heavy duty. So there was the itch for a Lacer size skew and heavy Robo? style scraper for a few years. I stumbled across a close out at Woodworkers Supply for three Crown 1.5" X 3/8 LH bowl skews. Minor grinding to convert to a standard skew, radius scraper, and RH bowl skew. They were normally $120 on sale for $40 so I got all three itches scratched pretty cheaply.

I do not suggest buying one but if you have a similar problem making a sheer scrape with a bowl gouge AND have an unused scraper around it may be worth a try. I really don't think the "skew" angle matters... it can be straight across but the bevel should be down around 45* to hone and then turn a very slight burr.

[Geoff Whaling]

Geoff, I think we are on the same page about tool selection.
robo hippy

Definitely, choose the tool which offers the most pro’s and least con’s in a particular application.


For us mortals, using a skew on the exterior of a bowl, as a skew, is something we should never do.

But I would never try it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE

Good advice, Thank you for posting this link again, I couldn’t remember its title to link to it -“Wood Carving In Germany 1926”?? You may also notice he uses what most turners call a continental gouge or a forged shallow fluted spindle gouge to hollow the bowl. It is manufactured in much the same manner as a skew with a forged tang. He also gets a few catches while turning. Those tools were best available technology & I guess they broke a few tools back then too. Thankfully manufacturing technology has vastly improved and tool development has made it much easier & safer to turn these days.


He's using a skew as a scraper, not as a skew. No different than using any other scraper.

True, but good bowl gouge tool skills and using a negative rake scraper in a “sheer scraping” mode will generally kick you along at least two grades of sandpaper with finishing. I use a traditional skew chisel as a shear scraper very regularly on my small (3” / 75 mm) linear laminated bowls.


I tried a lot of times to use a gouge in the sheer scrape position (handle very low as per Grumbine and Jamieson). I typically made it worse and came out with a Ruffles potato chip surface. This may be due to 1. it just felt awkward 2. felt I had less control 3. shorter stance movement. By number 3 I mean with the handle at my waist I can move (sway) a foot or more; with the handle way down the smooth movement may be half that much. And of course 4th just being a iss poor turner.

Michael, we all started out as a “iss poor turner.” I think its not only the tool profile but the physical stature of a turner relative to the lathe spindle height etc greatly affects the quality of a cut and shear scraping with a gouge. A good match up permits a wider range of body / tool movement. The rest is practice, refining sharpening skills (quality of edge & tool profile) and learning the nuances of tool presentation to improve a cut.

[Roger Chandler]

All things positive and negative on this thread considered. and due deference to the experience and expertise of some of the posters here........it is my contention that anyone who would advocate using a skew to turn bowls, with the exception of shear scraping as a negative rake scraper, on the outside of the bowl, or helping to shape a tenon, would not be serving the interest of the persons who are new to turning or in exploration mode as far a tool use, presentation and control .............any other use, should be considered a definite no go.

I think from the posts, that the more experienced turners who have posted agree that a skew is not a tool to turn bowls with! ;)

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

True, but good bowl gouge tool skills and using a negative rake scraper in a “sheer scraping” mode will generally kick you along at least two grades of sandpaper with finishing. I use a traditional skew chisel as a shear scraper very regularly on my small (3” / 75 mm) linear laminated bowls.

my comment was regarding the 1926 video...tools and techniques have improved vastly since then...

[Bill Boehme]

It does raise an interesting side question. We're told by experienced turners from the very beginning don't use a skew on a bowl, etc. But here is the rub...whether spindle, bowl, or gigantic boulder...round is still round. Meaning, there must be a transitional 'sweet spot' or something that suggests bigger than this should be done with a gouge, etc. I don't do a lot of spindle work but have grown comfortable with skews just for the fun of it but this is still a question that has puzzled me in the past.

Only at a very superficial level would round on a spindle be the same thing as round on a bowl. On a spindle, you are always cutting downhill with respect to the grain, but on a bowl you will be cutting into every sort of grain orientation. And .... cutting uphill with a skew can be .... well, let's just say that only you and the person who does your laundry will know how exciting it was.

[Geoff Whaling]

It does raise an interesting side question. We're told by experienced turners from the very beginning don't use a skew on a bowl, etc. But here is the rub...whether spindle, bowl, or gigantic boulder...round is still round. Meaning, there must be a transitional 'sweet spot' or something that suggests bigger than this should be done with a gouge, etc. I don't do a lot of spindle work but have grown comfortable with skews just for the fun of it but this is still a question that has puzzled me in the past.

There is only common ground with spindle turning, hollow forms and end grain bowls - when all have the grain aligned with or parallel to the turning axis. Traditional bowl blanks usually have the grain aligned perpendicular to the axis of the lathe.

There is also a common message here do not use a skew chisel to rough out or shape a bowl blank with the grain aligned perpendicular to the axis of the lathe. End grain bowls and end grain hollow forms whilst similar to traditional spindle turning because of the larger diameter of the blanks generally presents a significant challenge for using a skew chisel.

[Brice Rogers]

I want to thank the many people who responded to my original post. When I first started turning and using a skew, I was using it as a scraper. Worked okay but required much more sanding. After watching a bunch of videos, I eventually became semi-proficient using a bowl gouge in shear mode and using a skew on spindles in the shear/slicing mode. But every attempt to use it on bowls resulted in the inevitable major catch. Up until I read all of these replies, I wasn't sure if my problem was my own lack of technique or if I was trying to do something un-advisable. So, at this point, I'm going to give up on shear cutting with a skew. Thanks. You probably have saved me from another trip to the emergency room.