Burgess Edge

[Bill Adamsen]

Does anyone have experience using the Burgess bit set to put zero-thickness "edgebanding" on hardwood plywood? Just looking for tips and tricks ... especially for corners.

[Jamie Buxton]

Why would you want to put zero-thickness banding on plywood? If you want thin banding, you could use iron-on veneer edgebanding. I've done that, and it isn't good. First, you can't ease the corner. It has to be a knife edge, otherwise you'll go through the veneer and/or the banding. A knife edge feels uncomfortable to the hand. Second, that corner is sensitive to dings and bangs. In use, it gets beat up, and it looks bad. I don't use veneer banding any more, for those two reasons. I use solid lumber. I generally make it an eighth of an inch thick or so. I can ease it, and it can take abuse.

[Bill Adamsen]

I should have provided a bit more detail on what I was trying to do. The architect spec'd out panels (doors and drawers) without a face visible edge. Essentially this defines either an edge-banded panel or a solid wood panel. Had it been wall panels or even cabinet boxes, edge-banding would be the choice. But for doors and drawers I didn't consider edge-banding a viable option. In my experience, the durability is poor on active panels with just edge-banding.

The alternatives would be solid wood (not an option) or one of the zero-edge bit sets. After research I chose the Burgess Set shown in the photo. The edging is easily cut. The groove on the plywood is more problematic. I have successfully cut the groove on test panels and glued them up. But I shiver as I think about doing this for all four sides of a panel ... and was seeking practical advice from those that might have used the set.

The veneer on my Black walnut plywood measures 1/64" in thickness. If I could find panels with greater veneer thickness that would increase my confidence greatly. Anyone aware of any? Also curious about "corner" alternatives. I dread the idea of mitering these thin strips. Extending the strips would require processing the panels twice (rout, glue, trim, rout) and also leave a butt-end showing top or side ... either of which is probably acceptable in this case, just a daunting process.

[Peter Quinn]

We did a pile of similar this summer, 1 1/2" thickness shelves, but our concern was only the leading edge. Species was white oak rift saw, shelves were vacuum laminate 3/4" pairs. We bought a set from CT saw, it's a freeborn set, kind of a double chamfer set. First we set a 1/4" groove dead center on the panels, then stacked the double chamfer cutters (it's a set they make, one runs face up, one down in standard counter clockwise rotation) points to the middle, the 1/4" groove keeps the tips from burning up in the plywood. Next, cutters get reversed, there is a 1/4" spacer for both operations between cutters, so you have a double chamfer and stub tenon. Getting everything dead centered was essential, not every panel was. Complete success, we cut the hardwood "plugs" for lack of a better term a bit wide then trimmed to leave a fine pencil edge top and bottom, a perfect miter leaves the fragile plywood as the leading edge...that's not a win in my mind no matter how obtuse the architect. Doing the ends certainly complicated things.

something I did at another job......start with plywood substrate. Edge band with 1/16-1/8 backer veneer all edges. Veneer tops and bottoms of all panels, then veneer edges starting with sides, then faces. Gives a good color match, better than solid. The 1/16" veneer backer is available from most good veneer vendors, so don't have to make, gives the commercial veneer. More strength on edges, even the veneer you press yourself is thicker than from plywood companies, so a bit more strength.

[Bill Adamsen]

Peter ... I was at CT Saw the other day and spoke to Paul about making up a cutter (just the plywood side) for my Schmidt head. Surprised he didn't mention the Freeborn set. It might not be available for 3/4".

I really like that second "alternative" solution. Solves all the problems and greatly reduces the risk. Just having that as a backup plan is comforting. The issue is that doors and drawers are all matched so if I have to shift to that approach both would need to be done. I guess it would affect the thickness so I'd have to do all the panels that way. Did you just use pressure adhesive or did you glue on with a vacuum bag?

[peter gagliardi]

Typically the high end way to accomplish this is to glue a solid wood edging around the perimeter of your plywood pieces and then do a custom top veneer layup over the faces- most shops use mdf or particleboard cores instead of plywood.

In every instance, you still end up with fragile edges of veneer, only now, when, not if the edge gets damaged , instead of just the edge glued veneer going bad, it's the face veneers- much more trouble to repair.

The only other alternative to the burgess system which I have used is to bevel cut the panel edges back at a 45 degree and glue in the mating piece.
Unfortunately, nobody wants to hear the truth that in *most* cases, the labor to treat these edges as prescribed, costs more than the solid lumber.
* exotics excepted*

[Bill Adamsen]

Typically the high end way to accomplish this is to glue a solid wood edging around the perimeter of your plywood pieces and then do a custom top veneer layup over the faces- most shops use mdf or particleboard cores instead of plywood.

Sounds like that's the consensus solution. Thanks Peter & Peter!

I'm thinking plywood with plain sawn, edge with the Burgess allowing front overhang, and then veneer on a rift or quarter-sawn face. This limits the work to the face only which would be more tolerable.

Same question I posed to Mr. Quinn ... what adhesive would you recommend?

[Peter Quinn]

The veneer solution I described, we used a 50 ton hot press and a type II pva made for the purpose, was similar to titebond, you could use it cold but cured in 7 minutes with heat. Edges were also hot applied by clamping to a hot bar, these are sold by veneer places, not cheap but super quick for applied edges up to 1/8". We used solid edging beneath the face veneers on edges, but it was very thin, normally 1/16. Some shops glue on thick solids...which cause two problems. Color match isn't great if that's critical. In species like walnut matching solid edging to veneer color can be maddening. Other problem is a thicker solid edging, say 1/4"....it telegraphs through face veneers on top/bottom edges....which will be your faces on drawer and door fronts. For doors/drawers mdf or good particle board was the substrate....but that's no good for shelves, so slightly different approach there.

We got the cutter set for edging from Paul, it will certainly do anything from say 5/8" to its total height around 2 1/4". Our issue was we do a lot of thick shelves, 1", 1 1/2", etc, which can not be done with router sets, using a shaper/power feed sure didn't suck versus alternative, we don't have a router spindle for shaper.

[Chris Padilla]

In my Tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396-Tansu) build: glued on walnut edging to substrate (MDF) and then veneered with shop-cut 1/16" walnut to the edge. I also used a vacuum veneer press to clamp everything well. I used Better Bond veneer glue (http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Better-Bond-Veneer-Glue-Color-Extra-Dark.html). All is well a few years later and I have to point out to most folks that the Tansu is NOT made of solid walnut. That edge is hidden well and I don't find it all that fragile. A good glue will make it work.

I do have a set of Burgess edge cutters for my router. It works fine but does take some fidgeting and test cuts to set up perfectly. And if your plywood is consistent, the bits work great and as advertised. If the plywood is not, well.....not so great. :)

[Bill Adamsen]

I do have a high-speed spindle on my shaper ... and will attempt the solution with that. My attempts so far have been hit or miss ... not so much on the power (enough there) but more on the consistency of the wood thickness.

Ben at Berkshire Veneer provided some alternative shops that specialize in veneer and may approach one of them to see about using a rift sawn veneer as a solution. One thought was Peter G.'s solution using the "V" groove .. has the advantage of allowing more solid material on the edges ... but as he says ..."more labor than solid wood doors."

[Peter Quinn]

The problem with solid slabs is its not really practical or even possible in some cases due to panel sizes. I suppose it depends on your elevations.! Start getting 12-22" wide panels and you may need to leave wider reveals than most find acceptable. Then there is the end grain situation. Many of the same architects that can't tolerate a whisper of edge showing on a face aren't fond of end grain either....it's almost like they don't like wood? Add to these problems it's very difficult to chase the face grain all the way up and across a long elevation in solid stock, it's almost never done

[Marty Schlosser]

I've done it and it worked out well. The trick is in trying to get everything precisely set: ensure your edging stock is straight, knot free lumber and that you take your time to get everything lined up.

At the corners you're best bet is to mitre them. If you think you'll have troube getting everything to line up just right (you actually shouldn't have trouble doing this) then you could always apply the edging to two sides, then machine the plywood part. You'll have to use a backer block or risk tearout as the bit goes across the strip you'd just put in. Of course, by not mitering, you'll be left with a small cross-grain piece... but it should be hardly noticeable.