Back Health and working with hand tools

[Kent Adams]

I figured this was the best place to ask this question as I'm sure there are more than a few here who might be able to give me some personal insight. I've started my journey into using hand tools, bought a few but haven't used them yet because I need to build my bench first. Last Wednesday, I had an extremely painful back incident. Nothing acute to bring it on, just suddenly my back started to hurt like never before. I went to the ortho today and an X-ray was done. My problem turned out to be my SI joint. However, the X-ray showed I have some serious deterioration in my L4, L5 and starting on my L6. See attached x-ray. Oddly, my spine hasn't started to bother me yet, but I have a very thin disk in the back of these vertebrae.

Now I'm concerned that using hand tools like planes could hasten my disk deterioration. I'm sure there are folks here that have had problems with their back. Should I be concerned with using hand tools like planes with this pretty advanced deterioration? I'm pretty worried about it.

[James Pallas]

Kent I just hate to hear about someone having back problems. I have been dealing with it for 25 years. I have come close. To having to give up woodworking more then once. I now have a spinal cord stimulator implanted in my back. It works to help relieve pain but does not fix anything. I'm not out of it altogether but there is some things I can't or will not due. My advise, every case is different. Make sure you have a good orthopedist. Get a good therapist, they will teach you the excercises that you will need to know. They will become your best friend. Follow the doctor's and therapist's instruction as close to the letter as you can. I still use hand tools including planes but my techniques are not the same as they used to be. I wish you good luck with your back. I truly have been there and done that on this one.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

As Jim said, work with your orthopedist and any physical therapist.

If they okay you for working and movement then proceed with caution. If it hurts, you should stop.

It made me chuckle a day or so ago when in another thread someone mentioned removing 1/16" with a plane and not wanting to use 40 or 50 strokes. For my back, likely not as bad as yours, it wouldn't be done with much less than 15. Sure it could be done with 3 or 4 strokes, if I was 45 years younger or didn't mind some sore muscles.

The height of your bench will also do a lot to make it easy or hard on your back. For me a low bench makes my lower back sore if a lot of flat work has to be done. There is a sweet spot for planing around 3-1/2" above the bench top to about 9".

Sharp tools do not require as much effort as dull tools. Lower angles of attack require less effort than high angles of attack.



jtk

[Dave Beauchesne]

Kent I just hate to hear about someone having back problems. Get a good therapist, they will teach you the excercises that you will need to know. They will become your best friend. Follow the doctor's and therapist's instruction as close to the letter as you can.Jim

I too have had back issues for years. What it took was finding a good Physiotherapist ( this was a younger fellow from Holland, he had the European angle which was great ) and he and I met at the gym a couple sessions, with specific things to do to strengthen my core ( among others ). I did as he said 3-4 times a week; it took 2 full years to get back on track.

I do the drill 2 times a week since then, and, touch wood, have had only minor tweaks the past 2 years.

You have some nearly bone on bone contact by the looks of it, but, like Jim said, every case is different.

Good luck!!!
Dave B

[Bill McNiel]

Kent,
I can empathise with your situation, I am just coming off two weeks of being drugged (steroids, nerve blockers, pain killers and something else) and confined to bed as a result of removing trees. Both Jim & James have stated the absolutes, great Orthopedist and a knowledgeable Therapist. Pay close attention to what hurts (listen to your body), tell them the truth, show them the motions that are involved in woodworking, listen to them, heed their advice and continue to do the assigned therapeutic exercises. As soon as something starts to hurt, STOP!!! Do not think that you can play through the pain, that worked back in the day but not now.
Best wishes for a solid recovery.

[steven c newman]

Just recently had a few "issues" with the back.......Steriods and a pain pill was what they gave..

Have had Spinal Stenosis Lumbar for quite a few years now. There is also a touch of it in my neck....

Lot of it came from driving Forklifts for over 40 years.....kind of wears on you.

When I do any work in the shop...if the back says "Time out!", I stop for the day. I no longer do flooring of any kind. Oh, I can get down there to do the work, just won't be getting back up.....without help.

I just take things a lot easier.

[Kent Adams]

I'm not sure how I earned this misfortune. I've spent my life at a desk job, I'm not really overweight (190 and 6ft. tall) and no family history of this. I'm only 48 years old.

[paul cottingham]

I can relate. I am 53 and already had C3,C4 disk replaced, and need c5,6 and another disk (cant remember which) replaced as well. I live with pretty much constant severe pain, (or terrible numbness) that leave me requiring drugs. Ironically, my early life as a competitive swimmer almost certainly caused most of my problems.

I agree with what has been said already. Find doctors you can trust, and listen to them. And don't be afraid to quarrel with any medico who doesn't listen.

Best of luck to you, and remember, listen to your body.

[Phil Mueller]

Kent, I own a specialty back/neck retail business (Relax The Back). Spending your life at a desk job didn't do you any favors...99% of office workers sit incorrectly and for too long...mostly slouched over and reaching. Posture like this over years takes its toll.
Ditto on the advice to follow the advice from orthos and therapists.

The best relief from for back pain is neutral or zero gravity position. Knees propped up above your heart and back wedged to about 45 degrees. Lose the saggy recliners and couches...they will only exacerbate the problem. Build core strength. If your mattress is more than 10 years old look to replace it. Don't skimp...go for quality memory foam, latex/gel or combination...avoid coil springs. Get a good neck support pillow. Ask your Doctors/therapist about traction therapy and consider an inversion table.
And by all means, as suggested above, when you feel pain or soreness, stop what you're doing and relax.

[Brian Holcombe]

I sit all week with intermittent times of standing, so it's nice to work with the tools and stand all day. The only injury I've managed to self-inflict while working with hand tools is a twisting injury, so I'm more mindful of my movements now and have not gotten one since. So I think it's important to be mindful of the proper approach to pushing planes and swinging hammers, ect. I'm not a large framed person, so I rely upon legs and lats as often as possible.

[george wilson]

I have had chronic back pain since hurting my back when I was 21 years old. Had to have a titanium implant about 15(?) years ago. I live in pain every day. Makes me grumpy sometimes. Any work I have done has been through pure stubbornness and the love of doing the work. Good luck in your dealing with it.

I used to have to work by hand,and I don't know if working will hurt you or strengthen your muscles. Try it and find out is all I can say.

[michael langman]

Kent, There is much good advice here. I too have severe back problems and a considering building a bench with hand tools and am approaching 60 years old.
I question my judgement at times, but cannot get working with my hands out of my system.
Do what you love to do, but do it as your discomfort dictates, and ice applied to your lower back will become your best source of comfort, in times of really bad pain.

[Don Emmerling]

Hi Kent, I have the same problems and am 70. Could not imagine not doing woodworking. I have found that bench height is critical. Make the bench height so that you do not have to bend over more than about 5 degrees. Any more than that will bring on pain. When my back starts up I sit down and do something else at the bench. Plan your work time to include these breaks and have alternatives to do. That way at the end of the day you will feel that it has been a righteous day in the shop and all will be well.

[Robert Engel]

My guess is you're experiencing some muscle spasms.
I get the same thing. A bag of frozen peas works great!

When you're able you should do exercises to strengthen the muscles in your back.

I've had chronic back problems for over 25 years due to being injured by (not on) a horse.
Its a very touch, unpredictable thing. I can wake up one morning in excruciating pain and can't figure out what I did.

If I do a lot of planing or bending to chisel, etc. my back will be bothering me by the end of the day.

I would keep your options open on the workbench height. Figure out a way to try different heights for planing.
I keep mine just a little higher than recommended or my height.

I build a moxon vise on a base to elevate the wood for doing dovetails, etc. Its a life saver for me.

[Reinis Kanders]

Strong posterior helps to take the stress of the back. Office workers have back problems because sitting all day leads to a weak posterior and then back has to take up a lot of the slack.
I am around 6'6" and used to have back issues and doing basic gluteal activation exercises really helped and now it is way better.

Here is a quick google link with some basic info:
http://functionalresistancetraining.com/articles/re-activating-and-strengthening-the-gluteal-muscles

[Kent Adams]

Thanks everyone for sharing your own experience in adjusting to having back issues and what was helpful. There is a lot of helpful advice in here for me to look into.

I think what I will have to do bench wise, is to make a modified one from the Adjustabench, so I can change the height of the bench until I find something more comfortable. I won't be able to make it as large or substantial as I wanted to, but this should give me a good option to make sure that I can adjust the height of the bench easily until I'm comfortable.

[James Pallas]

Kent, one of the things I did was get an Adjust a Bench. I have been happy that it helps. The stability is good for me. I can no longer take any giant shavings as I have to rely on arm strength. It is helpful to have the adjustable feature so matter what I do I can stand straight up. There are any things I have done to make it easier for myself. It is just hard to explain how badly I feel about anyone starting the bad back business. Before it started for me I had no idea what it is like. I do now. Again good doctor and therapist will save you acres of pain.
Jim

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm very sorry to hear about such a thing. I have no experience with back problems, thank g-d I'm only 28, but I did get tennis elbow from work and I'm currently taking active measures to fix and support my body. Yoga has been amazing so far, I don't know if that would be Ok for you, but I guess my point is that active exercise of the right type might be your best bet for improving your body's state. Yoga also teaches the muscles how to work without stressing themselves out.. It's quite amazing.

[Tom Vanzant]

Kent, as you see, you don't have a silver bullet. I've had three neck injuries...two with fractures and/or dislocation, and a rear-ender that whip-lashed the old scar tissue. Later in life I developed degenerative disc disease (thinning of the discs) in my lumbar region, and that's the area of some of your problems. I had a workbench that was too high for what I do, and determined my optimal bench height by building low platforms of plywood and 1-by lumber, essentially lowering the bench height a little at a time until I hit the magic height of 32", 2-1/4" lower than the original bench...much cheaper than building an adjustable bench. I use an adjustable drafting stool when dovetailing, sawing and chiseling.
Strengthening the glutes and interior back muscles is key. The link Reinis posted is good for the glutes, and pelvic tilts while lying on your back works the interior muscles. "Hunching" is the easiest way to describe it.
Find your optimal bench height and pay attention to what your body is telling you, and you can enjoy hand tool woodworking...just don't force the issue.

[george wilson]

Don't worry too much about having back surgery in the lower part of your back. All the nerves branch off about half way down. he farther down they operate,the less chance of a problem. My implant never bothered me at all . It cured my spinal stenosis,but I have continual pain in my sacrum,which I slipped when I was 21.

By now I've had about 14 surgeries. Double bypass,neck bones frozen together,so I can only turn my head 45º either way,both elbows. Injured the first one driving large nails. The other grabbing a slipping 5 gallon water bottle. Two hernias. Prostate removal from cancer. A number of others I can't even recall. I have neuropathy in my feet. Both knees completely worn out. Need lube shots every 6 months,but my right knee has been killing me anyway after the last shots(which used to help). Trying to resist knee replacement surgery,and hip,too.

They say that being under anesthesia can change your personality. Didn't seem to affect mine that much,except that I don't play guitar any more. But that is likely due to a painfully worn out right thumb from finger style playing since 1952. My wife had 1 surgery,and she claims it has caused her to suddenly get interested in baking,and less in her jewelry making.

I was 6' 5",now 6' 3". I have neuropathy in my feet and a lot of knee trouble as they are worn out. I get lubrication shots about every 6 months,but this time my right knee has been killing me anyway. Trying to avoid knee and hip replacements. Jay Gaynor died from a blood clot after a hip replacement. Keeled over in the parking lot. He was my last boss.

Codeine no longer affects me more than a child's aspirin.

It's that last one about anesthesia I'd be concerned about. You might wake up and have no interest in wood working,possibly. You might want to research it.

[Ray Bohn]

I can relate. I am 53 and already had C3,C4 disk replaced, and need c5,6 and another disk (cant remember which) replaced as well. I live with pretty much constant severe pain, (or terrible numbness) that leave me requiring drugs.

I am curious. What material was used to replace the disks? Transplants, synthetic?

Thanks

[Curt Putnam]

I have arthropathy (really freaking bad arthritis). The xray reports for my spinal column all begin with - severe degeneration. I took 40 mg of Oxycontin a day for about 4 - 5 years. I'm now off the oxy and the back HURTS. I've had some steroid shots that have helped a little. Things are not helped by having a charcot foot (collapsed arch) which has badly warped my walking gait. All of which means I cannot walk far or fast, cannot bend down, bend over of kneel down. This all combines to make bench height a BIG issue. I made my parts bench at 42" and that feels ok. That is too high for hand planning. Current bench height of 34" is too low - I'm currently 6' 2' having shrunk from 6' 4".

If you make you bench at a height in the middle of your working range, you can always effectively lower it with platforms for you to stand on. You can raise it with blocks. Think of aids like a bench-on-bench or a Moxon style vise. If your docs say you can do stuff then go for it. The only instant pain I feel is from working too low - that will cause me to quit in about 4 minutes.

FWIW & YMWV

[Chuck Hart]

I have arthropathy (really freaking bad arthritis). The xray reports for my spinal column all begin with - severe degeneration. I took 40 mg of Oxycontin a day for about 4 - 5 years. I'm now off the oxy and the back HURTS. I've had some steroid shots that have helped a little. Things are not helped by having a charcot foot (collapsed arch) which has badly warped my walking gait. All of which means I cannot walk far or fast, cannot bend down, bend over of kneel down. This all combines to make bench height a BIG issue. I made my parts bench at 42" and that feels ok. That is too high for hand planning. Current bench height of 34" is too low - I'm currently 6' 2' having shrunk from 6' 4".

If you make you bench at a height in the middle of your working range, you can always effectively lower it with platforms for you to stand on. You can raise it with blocks. Think of aids like a bench-on-bench or a Moxon style vise. If your docs say you can do stuff then go for it. The only instant pain I feel is from working too low - that will cause me to quit in about 4 minutes.

FWIW & YMWV

Curt I had the ride on the Oxy road myself. Luckily I got methadone. Yea it is used for heroin addiction but also for chronic pain. It helps tremendously. Talk to your doctor about it.

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.chronicpainaustralia.org.au/index.php/forum/pain-management-with-pharmaceuticals/13175-new-sandoz-generic-oxycontin-on-pbs

[Mike Holbrook]

Between white water paddling in southeastern rock gardens, having all but one disc in my neck herniated in an auto "accident" (they never xrayed my back), slinging large dogs on a bite sleeve for 30 years, football and wrestling, breaking both first ribs....my back has had more than it's share of abuse. I bought a Nautilus back/sit up machine years ago. When I use it and other machines/weights regularly to work my back and stomach my pain and problems become insignificant in the larger scheme, until I "back" off on the workouts.

I have become a believer in figuring out what muscle groups and ligaments seem to be associated with such issues. Sure a doctor and or a therapist might help, but only you can figure out exactly where it hurts and what you need to stretch and strengthen to improve whatever pain/cramping.. you have. Surgical solutions typically still require rehabilitation of local muscle & ligaments to work. I say learn/know your own body first, no one else has the same "attachment" to it you do.

[paul cottingham]

I have arthropathy (really freaking bad arthritis). The xray reports for my spinal column all begin with - severe degeneration. I took 40 mg of Oxycontin a day for about 4 - 5 years. I'm now off the oxy and the back HURTS. I've had some steroid shots that have helped a little. Things are not helped by having a charcot foot (collapsed arch) which has badly warped my walking gait. All of which means I cannot walk far or fast, cannot bend down, bend over of kneel down. This all combines to make bench height a BIG issue. I made my parts bench at 42" and that feels ok. That is too high for hand planning. Current bench height of 34" is too low - I'm currently 6' 2' having shrunk from 6' 4".

If you make you bench at a height in the middle of your working range, you can always effectively lower it with platforms for you to stand on. You can raise it with blocks. Think of aids like a bench-on-bench or a Moxon style vise. If your docs say you can do stuff then go for it. The only instant pain I feel is from working too low - that will cause me to quit in about 4 minutes.

FWIW & YMWV

Curt, i am a recovering drunk of some 32 yrs sober. I have brutal neuropathic pain in my hands, so bad, that without meds, i would be completely doubled over. I take hydromorphone, and it has not triggered me at all, the way most narcotics do. You cant even say "fentanyl" around me without my heartrate going up.

it is a narcotic, but it has given me some of my life back. And i don't crave it like i would with some other meds.

[paul cottingham]

Between white water paddling in southeastern rock gardens, having all but one disc in my neck herniated in an auto "accident" (they never xrayed my back), slinging large dogs on a bite sleeve for 30 years, football and wrestling, breaking both first ribs....my back has had more than it's share of abuse. I bought a Nautilus back/sit up machine years ago. When I use it and other machines/weights regularly to work my back and stomach my pain and problems become insignificant in the larger scheme, until I "back" off on the workouts.

I have become a believer in figuring out what muscle groups and ligaments seem to be associated with such issues. Sure a doctor and or a therapist might help, but only you can figure out exactly where it hurts and what you need to stretch and strengthen to improve whatever pain/cramping.. you have. Surgical solutions typically still require rehabilitation of local muscle & ligaments to work. I say learn/know your own body first, no one else has the same "attachment" to it you do.

swimming is also excellent for that kind of benefit. But you must be disciplined about it. I cant right now because of my neck, and i miss it.

[steven c newman]

I used a non-drug way to get my back to settle down. Paid for it yesterday for NOT using it, too..
Soo, I had a small pillow. I sleep with it between my knees. Otherwise, I tend to roll up into a pretzel" with one leg going over the other wrong...

Soo, after sleeping last night with the pillow in it's place, I woke up this morning 90% pain free. Seems to work for me. I just have to remember to use it every night.

[Curt Putnam]

Hey Paul, my major neuropathy is in my feet (hence the Charcot foot). Can't feel them unless the nerves themselves are making me miserable. Feels like having frozen feet while ice skating thawing out. So far the major impediment to woodworking is essential (familial) tremors in my hands for which I take 200mg of mysoline a day. Getting old hurts too darn much. I'll see the pain doc again next week and mention the drugs you and Chuck have suggested.

[Derek Cohen]

I might add something to this thread. Around Christmas last year, I developed a severely painful neck, which was caused by hunching over a laptop for 4-5 hours each night while writing endless reports to meet deadlines at that time of year. I could not move my head for months. Sitting for long caused extreme discomfort. My sleep was destroyed. You all know this better than I. Treatment began with physiotherapy, and then moved to daily exercises, and finally exercise plus medication. I lived with hot packs when not working (which includes being seated with patients for 8 hours each day). It is still there, but only noticeable when I sit in a position that encourages poor posture.

Woodworking became very difficult - one of the reasons my output dropped off this year. Planing or chiseling over my bench encouraged leaning over, and this ended with spasms in my neck. What I ended up doing is raising my bench on bricks. Originally the height was via Chris Schwarz' "pinky test". That gave me an "ideal height" of 32". Raising the bench brought it to 34", which is the height of my previous bench (about 3 years ago). It feels so much better now.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Derek: I have to drug myself to sleep every night. Otherwise I can't get comfortable enough to go to sleep.

[Derek Cohen]

George, having had a more than a taste of this, you (and others here) have my deepest admiration for how you cope.

Derek

[Curt Putnam]

George, having had a more than a taste of this, you (and others here) have my deepest admiration for how you cope.

Derek

I think all of us cope (regardless of methods) because there is no alternative if we are to go on.

[Dave Jensen]

I've had back pain for most of my life, as well. Started when I was 16 from improper lifting. I tried chiropractic for years, but that never gave more than momentary relief. Valentine's night, 2006, my wife and I were rear-ended by a drunk driver... we were stopped, and he was doing 45 when he hit us. That served to exacerbate my back issues as well as inflict some on my wife. Several months later, the pain set in... severe pain down my leg to my foot. Couldn't move well at all. Finally an MRI indicated I had a herniated disk at L5-S1. A well-regarded local spine surgeon suggested we start first with injections -- done under anesthesia, cortisone and pain meds are injected right on the nerve that is fired up. Near complete relief was obtained within a couple days, and lasted a couple months. The injection was repeated at that time, and it lasted a couple more months. The doc then suggested we move on to the next step and do a micro-diskectomy, which is a removal of the splooged-out portion of the disk. I agreed, and we did the surgery. Full recovery took about 12 weeks, but I was feeling good pretty quickly, and mostly pain free. I still have times when the pain flares up, but that is treated with a quick course of oral (and cheap!) steroids. I'm very glad I had the surgery.

Just over a year ago, I turned my head to the side, heard a pop, and had instant pain in my right arm. Again, an MRI indicated a herniated disk, this time in my neck (maybe C5-6?). A trip to the same surgeon got me a recommendation for a disk replacement. Talk about a scary thought. But, I decided to do it, and that was the single best medical decision I've ever made. Only one night in a hospital (now can be done outpatient!) and I was on the road to recovery. Never did have a lick of pain from that one, and the pain relief caused by the herniated disk was immediate.

Current back maintenance consists of frequent stretching, exercising the core (which is where I fail), being *very* careful of lifting correctly, and the very rare cortisone meds. Proper work-table height is also important.

The moral of my story -- don't be afraid of the surgical solution. Just find a competent surgeon that you are comfortable with, decide on a treatment plan that works for you, and best of luck to you!

Dave