So so frustrating...............

[Jebediah Eckert]

Well I have been trying to improve my sharpening recently. I have the Shapton pro stones (1500, 5000, and 8000) and a fairly recently purchased Atoma 400 for flattening. Tonight I decided to flatten the backs of a new set of Lie Nielsen bevel chisels. I watched the LN sharpening video with Deneb and went with that method.

I started with the 8000 to see how flat they were then dropped to the 5000. They weren't flat enough (I don't think) for the 5000 so I went to the 1500. I did all the backs on the 1500 and seemed to get a nice flat even scratch pattern. I even purchased a cheap lighted loop for close inspection. I then did them all on the 5000 and achieved a nice even haze. On the small chisels there were even some small spots of a mirror polish on the back.

I should also add every time or two down the stone I have been flattening, rinsing, and was careful to clean up between grits.

The problem became visible when I went to the 8000 stone. It would seem like it started to get a polish but then the more I worked at it the haze came back. I don't know if I'm putting enough pressure or too much pressure. I can sit there all day and all I get is a haze. Not even close to a mirror polish. It was "shinier" in spots off the 5000.

I am very careful for cross contamination, flattening, and rinsing the stone. I am at a complete loss. I don't think anyone can diagnosis my problem just reading this I'm just more venting. I have absolutely no clue what to try and will probably just give up for the night. The only problem is I probably won't be too "inspired" to try again as I have no idea why I should expect different results. I don't know what to change.

I keep the pressure very steady when working the stone. I'm just not sure, maybe too much down pressure or not enough?

Why should it start to mirror polish on 5000, and when I continue it goes back to haze?

The method is basically work the chisel forward and back on 1/3 stone up and back, then 2/3 up and back on stone, then length chisel back up and down on the stone the lengthwise of the stone.

[Jim Koepke]

Someone is sure to be able to explain this better than me.

My first thought is about the possibility of the stones getting mixed up. I have become used to my stones an could tell one from the other by how fast they cut and how much of a burr can be raised. The coarser the stone, usually the faster it will cut and the bigger the burr for the same number of strokes.

I would also ask if you have a magnifier strong enough to look at the edges as you sharpen them.

My experience is similar between my 4000 and 8000 stone. A few strokes on a strop tends to put a mirror finish on my blades after honing on the 8000 stone.

The two stones are different brands. The 4000 is a bit harder and not as much slurry is produced during use as is on the 8000.

If you have ever seen a Veritas blade from Lee Valley, you may notice they look cloudy or hazy. They really do not improve

In this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?23779-Mirror-finish-on-plane-irons

The OP has the mirror edge going back and forth between grits. It may be that you are getting scratches with the 5000 stone that have sides of the valleys smooth so it looks like a reflective surface when it is actually a lot of mirrored surfaces at the same angle.

Polish or not, the real test isn't in the looking, it is in the cutting.

Besides shaving with your blades, which I do not suggest if you are not accustomed to shaving with a straight razor, there are a few test for determining sharpness.

Many people like slicing a light piece of paper. The blade should be pushed into the paper, not sliced across. If you can shave slivers off of a piece of receipt paper, then you are doing pretty good. Once you get this, try a few slicing motions to see if there are any snags. My pocket knifes get this test all the time as they are used for opening mail.

Some test by paring end grain of soft wood. A sharp blade can raise a very thin shaving without opening up spaces in the end grain.

Here is a video of a razor being tested via the "hanging hair" method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF-ayPofWpY

jtk

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks Jim, I appreciate your help as always. I definitely did not mess up the grits, although I can see that happening, but I know not in this case. I do have a lit magnifier and the edge looks good, or at least what I think it should look like. I'm going to checkout the hair sharp video but I doubt I'm there.

I just dont don't understand why the mirror comes and goes. I did try the receipt paper test and I can push it into the paper and cut. With a slicing motion there doesn't feel like it has any hang ups. I took a very thin shaving off of pine end grain and it left a smooth surface, I'm not sure if that meant anything or not. I free handed the bevel (no micro bevel) for the sharpening but I normally use a guide.

maybe somebody can comment on a few things I'm sure I read in threads but can't remember now-

-how often should I rinse the grey slurry/metal off the Shapton stones?
-how much down pressure to use (I go light enough to get it to move but it feels like it's almost floating on the water)
-when freehand the bevel I establish the bevel and pull back only. Sometimes it goes smooth and other times if kind of bounces like being on the rumble strips on the side of the road, am I doing that wrong?

Thanks

[Curt Putnam]

Can't help much except to say that I have read, on several occasions that waterstones may not produce a polish. Just as the backs of Veritas blades come smoother than you will ever get them but they are hazy.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Yeah, I remember reading that also but I seem to get it in spurts. The LN video is using the same chisels and stones and those produce a mirror. I guess they are sharp enough but frustrating to not be able to figure it out. A bunch of the threads emphasize the mirror finish, and I can't get it. I have to be doing something wrong. I will soak and scrub the stones of any cross contamination but I don't think that's it, I am pretty careful with that.

[Allen Jordan]

I also had trouble flattening chisel backs with the same set of stones. It was like they loaded up with swarf, the chisels started sticking to the swarfey patches, and nothing abraded evenly. I found it helped a bit if I added a drop of liquid dish soap into my spray bottle for lubricant. Also, try building up a little bit of swarf and keep rubbing over that patch... you can polish beyond the rated grit that way (might be the more mirror-like spots you're getting now).

[Robert Engel]

Are the grits on a Shapton ceramic stone similar to a water stone?

I always get a polished surface off an 8000 grit water stone so this is a mystery to me.

Are you using plain water on the stones?

I would just follow up with some stropping.

[Stanley Covington]

A hazy appearance is not necessarily a bad thing.

The grit particles generated by a stone in use have lots of sharp corners when fresh, and make deep, straight-sided V scratches of more or less uniform width. These reflect light uniformly giving the appearance of a mirror finish. But this is perception only and has little or nothing to do with sharpness.

An example is natural Japanese sharpening stones, especially the finish stones, which tend to produce rounder particles with fewer sharp corners. Instead of cutting straight-sided V shaped scratches in the steel, they make scratches with more rounded sides. These rounder scratches disperse light, creating a hazier finish. Many people, including me, find this hazy appearance more attractive than mirror, especially in laminated steel plane and chisel blades. It certainly looks better on sword blades.

I suspect that, since you are working with such care and a light touch, the particles generated by your Shapton stones are sharp at first, creating a mirror finish, but are breaking down and becoming rounder with use, creating rounder scratches and hazier finish.

I don't know for certain which appearance, mirror or hazy, corresponds to a superior cutting edge, but I suspect that scratches produced by rounder particles are tad tougher, and consequently that a hazy blade tends to stay sharper a few strokes longer. Just my opinion.

Anyway, my point is that failure to produce a mirror finish does not in any way mean your sharpening skills are deficient, or that the blade's sharpness is less than it could be.

[ken hatch]

Thanks Stanley,

You saved a lot of thinking on how to say just what you posted and inputting it on the keyboard.

The mirror finish has been over sold.

ken

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Stanley,

You saved a lot of thinking on how to say just what you posted and inputting it on the keyboard.

The mirror finish has been over sold.

ken

You're welcome. And you're right about the mirror finish.

As you know, here in Japan, the hazy, flawless finish is the gold standard of sharpening. I can't figure out why the mirror finish is thought to be desireable nowadays, especially in light of the negative things it often connotates.

What's your dog's name, and does he have a favorite brand of sharpening stone.:D

[Prashun Patel]

I have that 8000g Shapton. To be clear, tho, it's the green one. Yours is green, right?

I am lazy about rinsing, but notice that I can get mirrors on my microbevels pretty easily on that 8000.

How hard are you pressing? I get better results on all sharpening media by letting the grit do its work, and not pressing hard. For honing, I work it until I start seeing black slurry, then a little more. I don't try to overwork it or press hard at all.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thank you for the responses. With all the sharpening threads I have read I never picked up on the "mirror" finish isn't always the goal. I guess every video I have watched always goes for it and achieves the mirror.

The funny part is the bevels WERE mirror after a few freehand passes on the 8000. I did go a couple of passes on a strop but it did nothing for the polish on the back. I am hesitant to go any farther because I do remember reading that can cause a "dub" edge that is very difficult to remove by hand. I'm not sure what that is but know it should be avoided. I know there are man many theories on this sharpening thing but I just want a basic sharpen for now and will worry about stuff like this later if needed.

And thank you Allen on sharing your experiences with the Shapton's. I may just take your tips and give a quick go at one to see what happens. How often did you find yourself rinsing off the stone, or should I don't be doing that and letting build up?

Stanley, a response from Tokyo, super cool.......

[Jebediah Eckert]

I have that 8000g Shapton. To be clear, tho, it's the green one. Yours is green, right?

I am lazy about rinsing, but notice that I can get mirrors on my microbevels pretty easily on that 8000.

How hard are you pressing? I get better results on all sharpening media by letting the grit do its work, and not pressing hard. For honing, I work it until I start seeing black slurry, then a little more. I don't try to overwork it or press hard at all.

Thanks Prashun, yes stone is light green. Do you finish your chisel backs off on the 8000, or do you use another method? The freehand bevel did get a mirror finish with a few pull strokes on the 8000 no issues. A black stripe appeared on the stone after 2-3 pull strokes and I may have done 4-5 total and it produced a mirror on the bevel. I have been rinsing off the stone once I completely work the whole thing but maybe that works against me?

[ken hatch]

You're welcome. And you're right about the mirror finish.

As you know, here in Japan, the hazy, flawless finish is the gold standard of sharpening. I can't figure out why the mirror finish is thought to be desireable nowadays, especially in light of the negative things it often connotates.

What's your dog's name, and does he have a favorite brand of sharpening stone.:D

Stanley,

That's Sweet Maggie Dog. She's my shop dog and doesn't care which stone as long as it is a natural stone, Sam the Wonder Dog comes into the shop when he hears the bandsaw running. The bandsaw is the sound of rawhide bones being cut. Nothing brings as much joy to life as a good dog.

ken

[Prashun Patel]

Ah, now that I think about it, you are right: I don't get a mirror on the BACKS of my chisels. They are hazy off the 8000. I have a 3000grit diamond wheel on my Worksharp that produces a mirror finish. The 8000 dulls it back up. Even if I rinse the 8000 I can't get a mirror on the back. But I don't try that hard and it's never bothered me. I just figured I wasn't working hard or meticulously enough. I don't WANT to have a sharpening regimen that requires me to be too meticulous. I just want to be fast.

For my microbevels on chisels, I find the mirror (in addition to being easy to achieve on my Shapton 8000) is a useful visual indication that I've done enough. Like you, I prefer to freehand hone my chisels.

[Brian Holcombe]

Much more important, IMO, to ensure even scratch pattern and that the back is honed all the way up to the cutting edge. Mirror polish is not important.

On a small microbevel, inspect it in the light to ensure it is even and without distortion or scratches. Reason being, you want to ensure that the back and bevel are coming together at one continuous point, not interrupted and without a very tiny wear edge that can be hard to detect but will cause dullness.

[Jim Koepke]

This may be one of the best sharpening threads I have ever read.


I did try the receipt paper test and I can push it into the paper and cut. With a slicing motion there doesn't feel like it has any hang ups. I took a very thin shaving off of pine end grain and it left a smooth surface, I'm not sure if that meant anything or not.

You can be sure it means your tool is sharp enough to go to work.



maybe somebody can comment on a few things I'm sure I read in threads but can't remember now-

-how often should I rinse the grey slurry/metal off the Shapton stones?
-how much down pressure to use (I go light enough to get it to move but it feels like it's almost floating on the water)
-when freehand the bevel I establish the bevel and pull back only. Sometimes it goes smooth and other times if kind of bounces like being on the rumble strips on the side of the road, am I doing that wrong?

As mentioned above, the grey slurry is like a finer grit stone. I am likely what some would consider a sharpening slob. The slurry is usually left on my stones between soakings. Nor do they get flattened on a regular basis.

One of the most remembered lesson from a co-worker about sharpening was to push the blade into the stone like you mean it. This was with oil stones. Be careful doing this with water stones or you will end up with some nasty gouges in your stones. DAMHIKT!

My tendency is to press lightly on the push stroke and bear down a bit more on the pull stroke.

The bouncing or floating sensation is the interaction between the water's surface tension, the stone and the blade being worked. This is one reason my stones do not get flattened regularly. I have not tried the dish soap trick to see if that breaks the stiction. Right now my stones are dry and the tub they soak in is frozen over.

Oilstones in the winter, water stones in the summer...

jtk

[Jebediah Eckert]

Ah, now that I think about it, you are right: I don't get a mirror on the BACKS of my chisels. They are hazy off the 8000. I have a 3000grit diamond wheel on my Worksharp that produces a mirror finish. The 8000 dulls it back up. Even if I rinse the 8000 I can't get a mirror on the back. But I don't try that hard and it's never bothered me. I just figured I wasn't working hard or meticulously enough. I don't WANT to have a sharpening regimen that requires me to be too meticulous. I just want to be fast.

For my microbevels on chisels, I find the mirror (in addition to being easy to achieve on my Shapton 8000) is a useful visual indication that I've done enough. Like you, I prefer to freehand hone my chisels.


Thanks for checking, I feel better about it now. Still not sure why it won't but I guess the mirror isn't the end all.

thanks Brian and Jim, helpful as usual. Jim needs a heated shop....

[Tom M King]

A 13k Sigma comes real close to producing a mirror on a back. The two finest Diamond Lapping Films finish it in a few strokes each. No 8,000 stone I ever had came close to this progression. I know it's not necessary, but the few strokes it takes produces an enjoyable result. Type of steel might matter- I don't know. O1 is my steel of choice.

[Jebediah Eckert]

After a few more sharpening rounds on various things I went at my #3 smoother today.

I sharpened it like Christopher Schwartz does in his "setting up a premium handplane" video on YouTube.

Wow, never had this much forward advancement in sharpening ever. The technique is pretty basic using a cambered blade, micro bevel, and the "ruler trick". Not sure what worked itself out on the stones but it came off the 8k stone with a mirror finish. I then set the chipbreaker as close to the edge as I could and still catch the blade in the light. Reinstalled the blade, got it eyeball even then checked with a piece of wood that it was even. Went to the bench and I couldn't believe the finish it left. Absolute glass, I have never gotten even close to this before. I tried it on cherry, mahogany, and walnut scraps. When held up to the light it had a "glass like" reflection. I haven't tried any tough grain yet, I'm just going to enjoy the success for a little bit.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Not sure how well it shows up but here is one swipe on a cherry board.

328877

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Glad to hear of your success! With so many of these things it is a matter of continuing to work at it until things click.

[Brian Holcombe]

You're ruined now....throw away your sandpaper :D

[David Eisenhauer]

Oh so nice when it comes together.

[Jim Koepke]

Don't you just love the way an old piece of wood shines?

jtk

[Trevor Goodwin]

Hopefully someone else can confirm this, but I find different steels achieve different levels of polish at the same grit. For instance my Japanese chisels are like mirrors after my Naniwa 8000, whereas my cheap blue-handled Stanleys still look a bit hazy. Doesn't bother me as long as they cut.

[Mike Brady]

This is an aside to your original question about sharpening technique. You stated that you wanted to "flatten the backs" of a new set of Lie-Nielsen chisels. One of the reasons for purchasing tools of that quality is that they come carefully prepared for use. Your chisels would have worked just fine with just a small additional bevel @30 degrees added to the primary bevel. Granted, you are wanting to learn the use of the excellent water stones that you have purchased, and that is obviously essential for all of you edge tools. The risk in trying to improve your new chisels by manually flattening the backs is that your lack of experience may have actually undone what you have paid a premium to get. I can't tell from your description if you did the entire back of each chisel, but the removal of fine machine marks need only be done on the first inch or so of the chisel's back. I personally don't go beyond my 6000 stone on blade backs, but that is my choice and I just don't find a need to do more than that to remove the small burr that forms when honing the bevel side. I find that very often, less experienced sharpeners will often round over edges of chisels because they are taking dozens of lapping strokes on each of several grades of stones and it is very easy to rock a narrower chisel during this process. Bottom line: In my experience, less is more.

The above applies to tools that come well-prepared. Some blades you acquire will not be in good shape because they may be used tools or abused tools. Practice on those, not your premium tools. On poorly maintained tools, I would recommend not using your waterstones to flatten; at least initially. This will wear your stones rapidly and cause them to become dished. A cheap Norton India stone would be a good place to start. I have also found that loose grit silicon carbide on a flat piece of cast iron works very quickly to flatten blades right up to the edge. After that, your water stones will easily complete the job.

I don't mean to be critical, but rather want you to think before you act. You could have posted here about your chisels before you began and saved yourself some trouble. You have purchased some outstanding tools and sharpening media. Perhaps you can find an old chisel lying around to practice on; then take what you have learned and move forward.

[Patrick Chase]

Hopefully someone else can confirm this, but I find different steels achieve different levels of polish at the same grit. For instance my Japanese chisels are like mirrors after my Naniwa 8000, whereas my cheap blue-handled Stanleys still look a bit hazy. Doesn't bother me as long as they cut.

That's because the abrasive breaks down at different rates with different steels. Generally more breakdown -> more polish, so it's unsurprising that the harder Japanese chisel would polish out more than the Stanley.

[Patrick Chase]

This is an aside to your original question about sharpening technique. You stated that you wanted to "flatten the backs" of a new set of Lie-Nielsen chisels. One of the reasons for purchasing tools of that quality is that they come carefully prepared for use. Your chisels would have worked just fine with just a small additional bevel @30 degrees added to the primary bevel. Granted, you are wanting to learn the use of the excellent water stones that you have purchased, and that is obviously essential for all of you edge tools. The risk in trying to improve your new chisels by manually flattening the backs is that your lack of experience may have actually undone what you have paid a premium to get. I can't tell from your description if you did the entire back of each chisel, but the removal of fine machine marks need only be done on the first inch or so of the chisel's back. I personally don't go beyond my 6000 stone on blade backs, but that is my choice and I just don't find a need to do more than that to remove the small burr that forms when honing the bevel side. I find that very often, less experienced sharpeners will often round over edges of chisels because they are taking dozens of lapping strokes on each of several grades of stones and it is very easy to rock a narrower chisel during this process. Bottom line: In my experience, less is more.

The above applies to tools that come well-prepared. Some blades you acquire will not be in good shape because they may be used tools or abused tools. Practice on those, not your premium tools. On poorly maintained tools, I would recommend not using your waterstones to flatten; at least initially. This will wear your stones rapidly and cause them to become dished. A cheap Norton India stone would be a good place to start. I have also found that loose grit silicon carbide on a flat piece of cast iron works very quickly to flatten blades right up to the edge. After that, your water stones will easily complete the job.

I don't mean to be critical, but rather want you to think before you act. You could have posted here about your chisels before you began and saved yourself some trouble. You have purchased some outstanding tools and sharpening media. Perhaps you can find an old chisel lying around to practice on; then take what you have learned and move forward.

I almost posted the same thing last night but then deleted it because it was a reply to a stale thread...

LV and (I think but not as sure) LN have bought some seriously nice lapping machines, originally designed for the semiconductor industry, which deliver much tighter flatness/roughness tolerances than are needed for any woodworking tool. Their tools should be usable with nothing more than bevel honing as Mike says.

[Jebediah Eckert]

So be it, and I appreciate the input for sure. If you go to the LN site there is a video by Deneb on preparing the LN chisels for use and that is what I went by. I'm sure they will work fine without it no doubt.

[Simon MacGowen]

Allow me to say this, none of these are critical:

- even srctaches
- polished surface

The edge doesn't even have to be square to the sides (lands), for some applications.

What really matters is the back is flat (or slightly concave/hollow) and the edge is sharp, very sharp.

You judge the back not by its appearance but by using a straight edge (steel rule, for example). Never have I ever worried about how the back of a chisel looks and none of my chisel work ever has suffered from that inattention. I have flattened backs with diamond stones and waterstones not even up to 8,000 grits and never experienced any problem. Don't believe in everything you read or watch on the Internet, in articles or videos. Many of the things or steps you find are not necessary to getting fine results.

Did you try how the chisels really worked on a joint or piece of wood? It would be all academic to not to put them into actual use and see what happens. A lot of things going around about sharpening are overkill and bear little difference in real-life applications. Don't trust my words; just go ahead and work wood before you over worry.

Simon

[David Eisenhauer]

What Simon says. I was not going to chime in as I do not consider myself a "sharpening guru", but he says it. The goal is to slice wood - not shave hair, cut paper, behead other Samurai, etc - and I believe that you had that when you tried the chisel out on something as you described up above. I use a set of water stones that delivers a semi-polished surface with the use of the 6,000# stone, but I am looking for the burr and how it slices rather than a polish.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Points well taken Simon, they work just fine. I can push them into the side of thin paper with ease, plenty sharp on wood. They have been used plenty since and are probably ready for a touch up.

I knew they were sharp. I guess I was partially hung up in the details of how they should look. The reason I posted was more for why I wasn't getting the mirror finish like everyone else seemed to be getting with the same stones, not if I had to get it. The chisels were plenty sharp but I was more concerned if something needed to be fixed before the plane irons were done. I was able to get my plane irons workable sharp but was never able to get that polished finish with a smoother (until this last run).

Whatever happene it seems to be giving a mirror polish now, maybe something was on the stone, don't know. Maybe the few more stone flattenings I did since fixed it? I also suspected I was over/under rinsing the slurry off and wasn't sure if that could be improved, let it build up, or get rid of it.

I'm happy with the results I just got and did a bunch more irons with great results. I'm going to stick with this method for now and hope to keep getting the same results.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Letting the slurry build is generally good if you're after a polish. The slurry is broken down grit from the stone, which is effectively finer than the grit still embedded in the stone. In fact when I want to do something like polish the side of a knife, I prefer to use a soft stone like a King which will easily make a lot of slurry. But for chisel prep and sharpening in general I prefer the harder Shaptons since they stay flat much longer- in comparison to the King they hardly make slurry at all. I also think that slurry is not good for trying to achieve the final edge (I figure it must have a slight dubbing effect) - I would flush the stone of any slurry before taking the final passes.

And I agree with the general sentiment of this thread, which is that a true mirror polish is not necessary. I prep blades with 1000-5000-15000 shaptons typically, and while I get a very good reflection after the 15000 I can still see scratches. I don't think it's a problem and I wouldn't want to take the time to get rid of every single scratch, if it is even possible. I've only ever gotten a perfect mirror using a power buffer, but that's not desirable for plane or chisel backs, plus I think it looks cheesy compared to the "cloudy" polish from a stone.

It sounds like you're getting it down, and the result you posted is what really matters - the finish on the wood. If you are able to take very thin shavings, leave a good finish on the wood, and the process is relatively straightforward and quick, then you're where you want to be.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks Robert, makes sense. Since you have the Shapton's I have a question. I have the 1500, 5k, and 8k. While following the video they went from a 1500 to 8k and done. That is also what I did and was happy with the results. I'm just trying to figure out why I bought the 5k to begin with? I can't remember now.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks Robert, makes sense. Since you have the Shapton's I have a question. I have the 1500, 5k, and 8k. While following the video they went from a 1500 to 8k and done. That is also what I did and was happy with the results. I'm just trying to figure out why I bought the 5k to begin with? I can't remember now.

I have all of the above stones and then some, and agree that you can easily go 1500->8K in the Shapton Pros.

That's actually a good thing in some respects because the 5K is a bit of a "problem child", prone to localized loading and sticking unless it's either pre-soaked (yes, really) or kept well flushed with water. IMO it's the weakest stone (from a competitive perspective) in that entire line.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks Patrick. Unless I can think of a good use for it maybe I will get rid of it. Or maybe just use for kitchen knives and such.

[Mike Brady]

If you are referring to the Lie-Nielsen video on chisels, he is using Norton stones, not Shaptons. I wouldn't assume what works with one brand transfers to other brands. Lie-Nielsen now sells Ohishi brand stones. The chisel video is fairly old. Deneb has gray hair now.:rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Robert, makes sense. Since you have the Shapton's I have a question. I have the 1500, 5k, and 8k. While following the video they went from a 1500 to 8k and done. That is also what I did and was happy with the results. I'm just trying to figure out why I bought the 5k to begin with? I can't remember now.

An in between stone is nice for when you do not need the full force of a coarse stone.

I often hone with my 4000 stone followed by the 8000. As long as there isn't a nick or ding on the edge it is quick and easy.

jtk

[Robert Hazelwood]

Thanks Robert, makes sense. Since you have the Shapton's I have a question. I have the 1500, 5k, and 8k. While following the video they went from a 1500 to 8k and done. That is also what I did and was happy with the results. I'm just trying to figure out why I bought the 5k to begin with? I can't remember now.

For sharpening you can probably skip the 5k just fine, especially if you keep the sharpening bevel small. In that case the 8k can remove the 1500k scratches quickly enough. I use the 5k because I have it, but I don't spend much time on it during normal sharpening. However I think an intermediate stone would be helpful when doing a larger area like a blade back. Assuming you want an 8k finish on the blade back, the 5k will speed up the process of removing the 1.5k scratches.

I agree with Patrick that the 5k is a bit of a strange stone, and it does seem to benefit from using more water. But overall I like it.

[Jebediah Eckert]

If you are referring to the Lie-Nielsen video on chisels, he is using Norton stones, not Shaptons. I wouldn't assume what works with one brand transfers to other brands. Lie-Nielsen now sells Ohishi brand stones. The chisel video is fairly old. Deneb has gray hair now.:rolleyes:

Yup, that's the video. I was more referring to the fact he was flattening/polishing the back because comments were made it's not needed. I'm sure they work fine without doing so but the video is what gave me the idea. I did think they were Shapton's though, same color, and looked like same plastic box I have.

[Jebediah Eckert]

An in between stone is nice for when you do not need the full force of a coarse stone.

I often hone with my 4000 stone followed by the 8000. As long as there isn't a nick or ding on the edge it is quick and easy.

jtk

Thanks Jim (and Robert), that makes sense. Maybe that is why I bought it in the first place. It's been so long I'm sure I had a reason. But with the Internet and YouTube I have read way too much about sharpening and it all gets twisted at this point.

[Patrick Chase]

If you are referring to the Lie-Nielsen video on chisels, he is using Norton stones, not Shaptons. I wouldn't assume what works with one brand transfers to other brands. Lie-Nielsen now sells Ohishi brand stones. The chisel video is fairly old. Deneb has gray hair now.:rolleyes:

That last bit may be a key point. IIRC both LV and LN started using their nifty half-million-dollar (no joke) lapping machines fairly recently.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks Jim (and Robert), that makes sense. Maybe that is why I bought it in the first place. It's been so long I'm sure I had a reason. But with the Internet and YouTube I have read way too much about sharpening and it all gets twisted at this point.

It's easy to get over-saturated with both information and tools (I'm a poster child for the latter).

The stones you have are great for the steels you're sharpening, so I'd suggest leaving well enough alone for the time being. You might need to add something at the coarse end if you don't have a bench grinder, but other than that you should be set.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks Patrick. For my beat up chisels and planes I have a granite plate and sandpaper. I do have a grinder but as of now I just use it for turning tools. I have watched a bunch of grinding videos but will definitely be leaving well enough alone, sound advice.

[Mike Cherry]

I just wanted to say that I feel your pain OP. I spent my first year or two of woodworking trying to get that mirror finish that is supposedly so important. I started with the same stones as you and could never figure out why the bevel was polished but the backs werent. Eventually, I convinced myself (as it sound like you have) that enough was enough and the blades were plenty sharp!

I think alot of folk get hung up on sharpening. For me, I had to keep trying until I found what worked for me. Once you find it, you can get on to building things! The realization, as mentioned previously, that premium LV blades are hazy from the factory is what ultimately made me realize that attempting to get a mirror shine was pointless.

[Jebediah Eckert]

So true Mike, I'm happy with "good enough" for now!

[Joe Beaulieu]

Ahhh...I see! If the chisel will cut paper, and paper is made from wood, ...she must be a witch! Burn her! Burn her!