Is a Miter Saw a Shop Neccessity?

[Michael Melo]

Hello,

I currently have a very small shop cramed with a Rigid jointer, planer, drill press (its that lifetime service/warranty, that gets me.) As well as a suite of Festool products. Not to mention a work table, storage etc...

Needless to say space is the greatest premium in my shop.

Although I have no immediate requirement to purchase another tool (except my ongoing and insatiable tool-lust.) Most of my projects (cabinets, dresser's, sofa's, armoire's etc) have been produced using my available cutting capacity and if that wasn't enough I have used this (awesome product): http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=44927&cat=1,42884,42924

I will be starting a front porch/deck project soon (cutting large demensioned lumber, 4x4's etc) and hence the question:

With a current lumber cutting capacity as follows (via the ATF65 or PC 742):

2 7/16" (61 mm) straight down and 1 3/4" (45 mm) at 45 degrees (unlimited width)

Knowing that I can cut 4x4's using the flip method. In your opinion would a miter saw be worth its cost/space over the above mentioned workaround? If so, is there such a thing as a compact/light weight unit that can cut 4x4's in a single pass?

Thanks for your time! Great forum.

Michael

[Donnie Raines]

Good questions. I use mine primarily for rough cutting to lenght, though it was set up with a nice fence and stop(for re-peat cuts). I use a cross cut sled for everything...easier to use(IMO) and allows we to cross cut wider boards cleanly and accurately.

now, if I had a slideing compound saw I may feel diffrently.... :cool:

[Don Baer]

Michael,
I have a DeWalt CMS and wouldn't be without it. You didn't mention a TS in your tool list so I assume you don't have one. The nice thing about a CMS is that it is easy to set up and you can get very repeteable results. When your done with is it is easy to put it under a bench and out of the way. Is it necessary? No. Is it handy to have? You betcha !!

[David Duke]

Although I have a CMS, I personally don't consider it a "must have" piece of equipment. I use mine mainly for cutting to rough length and do most of my finish cuts on the TS using a SmartMiter sled. The CMS would make it easier to work with the 4x in building your deck but if this is a one time project with shop space at a premium I'd make do with what you have for now.

[Lee DeRaud]

Two possibly contradictory points:

1. The CMS is one of the most compact tools in my shop: it sits on a 24"x24"x30" base cabinet equipped with a mobile base. I'm probably a bit abnormal in this regard, but I don't miss the big "wings" out to each side that most people consider standard for using one of these things, mostly because I use it for smaller-than-average projects.

2. Having said that, I cannot imagine trying to do a deck project without a CMS. (Even though I did one once. Never again.:eek: )

What I guess it comes down to is, the answer to your question "Is it a shop necessity?" is "no". But the question "Is it a necessity for a deck project?" is (IMHO) "yes". Have you considered just renting one for that?

[JayStPeter]

In the woodshop, not a necessity. For framing work, I'd have to say yes. It has also come in handy for cutting parts for large pieces (large table and beds). Every time I start seriously thinking about getting the miter saw out of my shop, it does something that earns its keep.

Jay

[Andy London]

It is in my shop, I have a 10 and 12" along with a slider and would be lost with out them as I do production picture framing. Although I could do them on the tablesaw, it would be no where near as fast. We use them for a lot more than framing and next to the planer, they are the most used shop tools.

I also like them as I find them very safe, my 14 year old son builds and sells his own projects and uses the mitersaws every day, the tablesaw is the only tool in the shop he's not allowed to use.

[John Bailey]

My 20 year old craftsman radial arm saw finally went south just as I was starting to put t&g siding on my new shop. Instead of buying a new saw that I didn't want, (I want an old DeWalt RAS) I built a jig and I'm using a circular saw. I know it's not as fast, but for the one project, it will do.

[Jamie Buxton]

Necessity in a shop? No. I own a good SCMS (the Makita 10"). It is an indispensible tool for trim carpentry; I can't imagine how people used to install crown. However, it is stored with the rest of my housebuilding tools (like a Hole Hawg, and a Sawzall, the big nail guns, and a rotary hammer), and comes out only when I get sucked back into housebuilding. In my furniture shop, I use a tablesaw for cutting angles. I've found a sled is more accurate than a SCMS. I keep three around: a 90/90; 45/90, which works with the blade beveled over at 45 degrees; and a double 45, which has a left 45 degree miter and a right 45 degree miter. The double 45 does a terrific job on picture frames, door frames, and anything like that.

For a while, I had the SCMS in the shop. After I compared its performance to the sleds, I stopped using it for precision cross-cutting, and used it only for rough-cutting lumber. After a while, I decided I could do that just as well with a circular saw, and that the circular saw takes less space. That's when the SCMS moved to storage. In my shop, tools must justify their floorspace.

[Mike Stanton]

I have a slide compound dewalt 12 inch and it is the most used tool next to the table saw.

[Steve Clardy]

I have two DW705's and a DW708 slider.
I consider these very necessary in the shop.
I couldn't imagine going back to my radial arm saw for accuracy in cutting door parts and face frame parts.

[Michael Melo]

Reads like it will come down to what the long term use of the tool will be (much like other tool choices, I suppose.)

Having never built a deck before I have no experience with how difficult it would be with the lack of cutting capacity (an alternative device I own, allows me to use a circular much like a miter saw, only, as indicated, depth of cut is limited by the size of the circular saw blade.)

To answer questions on frequency of future use, this is the first deck project I have quoted on. If I do another again, will come down to how well this one goes and whether it proves profitable. Hence my concerns with dropping $750cdn (any of the top 5 SCMS') on an appropriate miter saw... Before I know if it is something I'll use with great frequency in the future. Not to mention these things are HUGE!

I read conflicting opinions on accuracy of these. Assuming I purchase one but decide to never build another deck are these tools accurate enough for furniture construction? Or (as mentioned) is to the tool shed with it?

Thanks!

Michael

[Don Baer]

[QUOTE=Michael I read conflicting opinions on accuracy of these. Assuming I purchase one but decide to never build another deck are these tools accurate enough for furniture construction? Or (as mentioned) is to the tool shed with it?
[/QUOTE]

Others may dissagree but I find mine to be very accurate. Mine is not a slider and when I got this one I felt that a slider may not be as accurate thus I got the non slidig kind. I use mine primarily for furniture, making face frames etc. I have made a few picture frame with it and the 45's I cut are dead on.

[Mike Cutler]

They can be set up to very repeatable. Accuracy is a measurement referenced to a known standard, and other than maintaing the angle of cut, the rest of the physical accuracy is a function of the measurement device used to set the CMS up. A nice CMS can cut as accurately as you can measure. Per Swenson has a very nice setup for a CMS. Accurate, and repeatable.
I have a Dewalt 705, with an 80 tooth full kerf blade, the thin kerfs had a tendency to deflect slightly, and leave an edge that was not square. Full Kerfs are much better.
I use mine for rough dimensioning, with a different blade, and final cutting. My shop space is only 9' wide, so I have some space limitations on my ability to cross cut on the TS.
After the deck work is done, a CMS is a valuable addition to a shop, not an absolute neccesity, but a very nice addition. Time saver also for Mission, and Arts& Crafts type furniture.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I have a Craftsman with a 80 tooth blade. I spent some time adjusting and setting mine up. I agree with Don and Mike. They can be made as accurate as a table saw. I make furniture (especially shaker and mission), toys, and clocks. For 22.5 deg, 45 deg and any inbetween when building clocks, it is very accurate. Most of the time if I have to make one or two single cuts I use the CMS instead of pulling out the table saw. I have also found out as Mike stated that the thin kerf blades tend to move and you don't get a good mitre joint. So I use the full kerf blades.


Bernie

[Jesse Cloud]

If space is a big concern, consider integrating the saw into your lumber storage. I have a five rack storage module with the third rack dedicated to the miter saw and wings. I can just lift a board off the rack and chop it in no time at all, and the saw doesn't take much space.

[Brian Jarnell]

You would need a 12" saw to cut 4"in one pass.
I have the 12"Dewalt scms and consider it indispensable.

[Steven Herbin]

I'm going through the same decision making process.

We're gut renovating a "new" old house. Having a contractor come in and add a second floor. But once he's done, we're replacing all the existing floors with some sort of wood and doing cabinets (new kitchen, baths, etc.).

What I'm considering is the ATF55 or ATF65 with the MFT 1080. Except for standup crown molding, I think it's a real option.

Any thoughts?

[Michael Melo]

I've checked deminsions/specs of the various SCMS' and CMS' regardless of the unit they all appear to have a similar foot print/weight etc. (individually in either the 12" or 10" class.)

12" SCMS' average around 30"x30" weight around 60lbs (10" units are slightly smaller and average about 10lbs lighter)
12" CMS' a little smaller at 24"X24" weight around 40lbs (10" units not really smaller but tend to weigh around 35lbs)

All of the models I looked at (Makita, Rigid, Dewalt, Bosch) SCMS and CMS in both the 10" or 12" had the ability to cut a 4x4 at 90deg.

Considering I just can't imagine ever needing to chop anything like a 4x12 I am leaning towards the MUCH less expensive and smaller/lighter CMS' particulary the 10" units.

With regards to the MFT this is likely to be a topic for another thread. However I would recommend the larger of the two saws and your right in considering the 1080 vs the 800. I own both only because I first purchased the 800 and quickly out grew it. I considered purchasing the extensions and building my own larger MFT but instead decided to just pruchase the 1080 as well. I use the 800 on site and the 1080 as my main work platform in the shop. If I need the extra table space I use the connectors to attach the two together.

As for it being a viable option. As I mentioned earlier on in this thread I have never needed greater capacity until recently (I'm still considering the flip and cut method or renting a CMS.) I've used the MFT and ATF65 for baseboards and moldings all day long with perfect results. You will want to fashion a low profile clamp to cut small pieces that fit under the guide rail on the MFT (the Lee Valley bench dogs are good but at 5/8" profile still a little too tall.) I basically copied that design and made ones using read rod and dowel, and managed to get less then 1/2" profile. Oh and purchase the Longitudinal stop it is usefull for squaring smaller pieces that don't have a lot of surface on the fence, and of course lots of the clamps (I use the FSZ 120/300, although ridculously expensive they are the cheapest clamps they sell and I find them just as quick to use as their speed clamps.)


Cheers,

Michael
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[Paul Comi]

Whether you need a miter saw station or miter saw for that matter in your shop set up is really a matter of the projects you go after. I tend to work on large projects like built ins, fireplace mantels, shop furniture, etc rather than small boxes so having my 12" scms with a stop block system is a must for me. I can cross cut the same 12" as I can on my unisaw, but in my 20 x 20 shop, the most I can handle cross cutting is a piece that is about 5 ft or so without moving my table saw around. Taking 8 ft lumber and quickly chopping it to rough size and then adding joinery cuts on the table saw is much more efficient. Check out the newest Fine Woodworking magazine for a pretty clever idea. A guy built a lumber cart and on the front size where the cut off bins are, he integrated a shelf for a miter saw and even has a slide out stop block system. Frankly, had I not already built my wall mounted miter station with integrated mortiser I would probably have gone this route.

This is an old pic. I made the station high enough that my new DJ-20 rolls in underneath it to conserve space. Looking at the picture, it looks like the unit is leaning, but its totally flat and is very strong. When I built it, I sat on the front edge before mounting my saw.
http://img298.echo.cx/img298/6586/dscf001910jc.jpg

[Steve Schoene]

I'd pile on with what appears to be a consensus that the miter saw is almost a necessity for both framing and trim carpentry it is not quite so important in a furniture making shop. Personally, I'd prefer having a RAS--largely for dado work on cases--but I'm not ready to shell out the over $1K needed to get one beefy enough not to need reallignment every time you look at it cross-eyed.

[Richard Wolf]

From a professional point of view. A 12" SCMS is the work horse of most trim carpenters. They are not light but are portable enough to take to all job sites and used to cut all kinds of materials. Railings, trim, moldings, flooring and just about anything else is cut to lenght with a "chop box".
If you never plan to leave your shop you may not need one, but even doing a deck project out back, it becomes nessesary.
I drag one everyday to a job and spend two minutes checking it out with a woodpecker perfect square and it's good to go.

Richard

[Brian Jarnell]

As a cabinet maker I use scms for all my mitres,with a fine blade I like how I can take a thou off and get absolutely exact fit.

With practice you can make it talk.;)

[CPeter James]

I have a Dewalt 708 and have several blades for it. I have a 30T for rough and 3 80T for fine work. One of the 80T is a Ridge Carbide (Like Forrest Chopmaster). I use it more han any other tool in the shop.

CPeter

[Bob Smalser]

Is a Miter Saw a Shop Neccessity?

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/26712331.jpg

Absolutely. ;)

My compound miter saw sure gets a lot of use....and it remains the only one I own in 3+ decades of professional use.

I do intend to get one of those sliding chop saws
in anoither year or so when I really need it....and that's the key....really need it.

Otherwise you're in danger of losing your soul (and common sense) to pulling out the power brad nailer to hang a picture.

[Steve Cox]

I'll take what's seeming to be the common thread here. I have a Bosch 12" SCMS which I use for every on site job I do. I store it a shed seperate from the shop and only rarely pull it out for a furniture project. I wouldn't call it a necessity for a furniture shop but I sure wouldn't want to be without it while building a deck or doing trim work.

[Kent Cori]

My Bosch 4410 SCMS is probably the second most used tool in my shop after my TS. I constructed a mobile workstation cabinet for it and can move it around as necessary. With the wings dropped, it nestles nicely between my lathe and under my drill press table. I've found this tool to save time and effort many times and wouldn't hesitate to make the same purchase again.

You can see the workstation here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13242

[Michael Melo]

In the middle of the current porch/deck project (borrowed a friends ryobi) I noticed a massive price drop on the Makita LS1214 (typically this unit was selling in the 800+cdn price bracket.) I purchased it for 659cdn and they threw in Makitas 4340 Jigsaw which I figure I can sell on eBay to recoup a bit more. At that deal I couldn't pass it up. I suspect my productivity for this and possible future projects of its kind will sky rocket. Whether it lives in the shop or not (after this project) is still up in the air...

Off to work!

Thanks again, all for the feed back.

M

[Ken Salisbury]

ALL SHOP TOOLS ARE CONSIDERED NECCESSITIES


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/smiley2.gif