Finish Carpenters.......

[Ken Fitzgerald]

In August our contractor finished our kitchen addition, remodel and whole house window replacement. Because we went with new flooring all the baseboard in the dining room, kitchen, bathroom and hallway had to be removed so it only made sense to remove the trim for the doors opening onto the hallway. While the contractor and his subs did an excellent job, I elected to do the finish carpentry. I just came in from staining the last of the baseboard. Tomorrow I will begin the two days of applying 2 coats per day of poly. After that baseboard is installed, I have one more window to manufacture casing, finish and trim it out. When they installed the new windows, I insisted they use nailing flanges. Thus exterior trim was required. The new windows were thicker thus new interior trim and casing was required too.

All the doorways and windows are getting stained oak casing and picture frame trim as appropriate.

The things I have learned while trimming out 4 doors and 7 windows with picture frame trim?

1. All necessary surfaces are flush with each other UNTIL you glue the joints and drive the nails!

2. All surfaces that need to be are perpendicular to each other are perfect UNTIL you drive the nails.

3. In our area, it's difficult to find straight oak picture frame trim. You can find oak trim, however, it's difficult to find straight trim.

4. A sharp low angle block plane is a good friend to a finish carpenter.

5. A good finish carpenter is worth his/her weight in gold. I am neither.:o

In my defense, my wife insisted on a 5 week driving trip for a Grandma fix so it delayed my work. While my work is okay, I am sure a good professional would have been faster and done a better job!

[Frederick Skelly]

Lotta work Ken, but sounds like it will be nice.

I don't recognize the term "nailing flanges". Are they a way to fasten wood to brick, a way to keep water out better, or something else? I ask because Im considering replacing my windows.

Thaanks,
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

Lotta work Ken, but sounds like it will be nice.

I don't recognize the term "nailing flanges". Are they a way to fasten wood to brick, a way to keep water out better, or something else? I ask because Im considering replacing my windows.

Thaanks,
Fred

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=window+nailing+flanges&biw=944&bih=386&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxjq2U5qHJAhXh4qYKHTmxC6YQsAQIGw

[Chris Kiely]

#6. This tool is a trim carpenter's best friend: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Dasco-Pro-Pry-Bar-Set-3-Piece-91/202585548

Sooo handy. For $10, the most used tool I own.

[Rich Engelhardt]

5. A good finish carpenter is worth his/her weight in gold. I am neither.:oWhenever I see/read/hear people complain about gaps in trim or out of square frames or uneven reveals, I just shut my mouth and bite my tongue. ;).
Finish carpentry is as exacting as it gets.

What I've never figured out is how it can be that, you pry some trim off, then put it back in the exact same spot & it doesn't fit?
That will baffle me forever....

[Frederick Skelly]

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=window+nailing+flanges&biw=944&bih=386&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxjq2U5qHJAhXh4qYKHTmxC6YQsAQIGw

Thanks Stewie!

[Ben Grunow]

Its just a game of experience. LIttle things like the beveled edge of the drywall, if installed at the floor, will cause base boards to open/roll into the walls when nailed. Door jambs are rarely perfectly flush with drywall and so I like to make door and window casings and biscuit them and use hartford clamps to assemble them on a bench then nail them up with the clamps on to the jambs only. After the glue is dry nail to the wall and then deal with any gaps at the outer edge of teh casings later if need be. Often just caulking is all thats needed and a painter should do that.

I always carried a block plane that was sharp for jambs that are out a little here and there, base that needs a quick scribe, doors that need a little fitting etc. and it really saves time. I think the thing most people do that is wrong is try to quantify every part of finish carpentry with an angle or length when it really is just something that comes in time like any "art" if we can call it that. Once you have scribed base over a hump in a floor or a casing to a drywall surface about 1000 times, it be comes second nature and this cant be read or taught or learned online unfortunately. I wish. Could have saved quite a few mistakes over the years.

[David Helm]

What Ben said!

[Peter Quinn]

It's a lot of work, and a very specific set of skills. I say cudos to tackling it your self Ken! The buck stops at the finish carpenter, they have to rectify the aesthetics of all the cumulative errors of every other trade. Lots of different tricks and tools. My trim experience is more limited, I've opted to stay as far away from it professionally as possible, but it has come up occasionally. Some people just think woodworkers and carpenters are the same thing! We know better.

Part of it comes down to the product being installed, a good system goes in better than anything in today's big box world. Jambs proud of drywall, casing biscuited at corners and glued with Hartford clamps then nailed to jambs, back band with beveled scribes to close gaps at wall. It takes lots of time but can go in very seamless. I had a friend ask me to install crown molding a while back, as a paying side job....I declined and told them I didn't do that sort of thing. Then I made them a mantle...wrapped in several layers of crown...eyebrows were raised! "Hey, I though you didn't do crown...." In the shop I have the privalage and luxury of starting with a very square assembly so it's a straightforward job. Field installations are much more difficult for me, so much tweaking off angles, compound angles, scribing and adjusting....often in the air on ladders. It's not that I can't do it, I just decided a long time ago I don't like it, right around when I got decent if not quick and productive. To watch somebody that is good at it and enjoys it is to me a thing of beauty. I'd rather make the moldings than install them!

[Jeff Duncan]

First off, for stain grade I'd install everything first and then stain and poly. That way the nail holes are all filled and sanded and you get the best possible finish….IMHO. I've had to do stuff in the shop where it's all finished and then installed and I'm never as satisfied with the end results.

I'll also second what Peter said, the only difference is I give just a bit more information. I tell people straight out I don't do trim work as I'd be much too expensive. I'm very comfortable working in my shop, but installing onsite I find I work painfully slowly. I'm too much of a perfectionist and spend too much time on the details.

As far as a professional being faster and doing a better job…..maybe. I've worked next to a LOT of finish carpenters over the years and like most other trades the goal is get in and get out quickly. Most do decent work, and these days decent seems to be generally accepted as good quality. But it's rare to see someone really good at it unless your working on a pretty high end project. So if you take your time and get it done to your satisfaction, I'm sure it will be a very good job!

good luck,
JeffD

[Jim Dwight]

Congratulations Ken. Both on your trim work and on getting done with your large project. Even with a contractor, there are decisions to be made and cleanup and other things that keep you busy. I has always felt good to be done.

I have done a bit of trim work, most recently I did the baseboard and casing for our addition (maybe 800 ft2 total area in two spaces). I've also made the molding but I don't plan to do that again (it was another house maybe 20 years ago). Took too long. But I've never done clear finish trim. Always painted. Caulk hides a multitude of issues. I think I could do stain grade but it would be a lot harder.

One thing I started in the last house where I finished the basement including putting up crown was to join the crown into one piece for long runs. A piece of scrap on the back secured with construction adhesive and staples will close a scarf joint and prevent the trim from opening up later.

[Roger Pozzi]

What I've never figured out is how it can be that, you pry some trim off, then put it back in the exact same spot & it doesn't fit?
That will baffle me forever....
Did you ever dig a ditch, place pipe in said ditch and not have enough dirt to refill that ditch? :confused:

[Marty Schlosser]

Having done several trim jobs over the years I tip my hat to you for giving it your best and working through the many challenges that come with such tasks.

One of the most challenging ones for me was when helping a friend trim out their kitchen and adjoining dining room and hallway with clear maple we machined very carefully ourselves. I think that job was the start of my failing knees from going up and down that ladder to trim a bit off here and there on the joints with first my SCMS and then my block plane!

[Justin Ludwig]

Like anything it just takes a little practice. The whole "you don't know what you don't know" falls a bit to the wayside because of the plethora of videos out there.

Test miters on wider and/or thicker boards.
Practice using the miter saw as a shooting board. Lightly putting the stock against the saw body and you can shave 1/64 off.
Create margin blocks and keep them in your bag.
Get FastCap's scribe tool.
SHIMS!!!!

[Shawn Pixley]

Way back in the day, I worked as a finish carpenter. Tough work. I seemed to grow resentful of my having to rectify the compounding errors of framers, drywallers, electricians, plumbers, etc. It can be tedious, and frustrating but when done well, looks dynamite. Good work, Ken!

[Ellery Becnel]

I worked for my father for fourteen years. He owned his HVAC/electrical business. We also built closets to house the systems, when they did not have any. We installed disappearing folding stairways, etc. What ever needed to be done to do the job,we did it.
My father told me one day that if he did not do A/C work he would have been a trim carpenter. He really was an excellent trim carpenter. He taught me so many things about construction. I asked him where did he learn all of this stuff. He told me that he
took woodworking shop classes in high school. I met one of his shop teachers years later, we were installing an A/C system in his house. He told me how talented my father was in doing his work. He said it is an art, and it is something that takes time and
patience to master. My father had both of those qualities. One of his favorite sayings were,"that joint needs to be so tight you can't blow smoke through it". I did not understand at first. Then I realized that he meant, existing structures move, are not perfectly square, therefore you have to custom fit it. He was always saying things to make you think about it.

All of the approaches that he taught me during those years helped me in ways I could not have dreamed of when it came to woodworking. I would not like to be a trim carpenter, I can but to me it is more of a passion that I do not have. I enjoy building projects
and upgrades but that is enough for me. I have found my passion now, it is woodworking!
Thanks for the post Ken, it made me reflect on some good memories.

Ellery Becnel

[Tom M King]

Backbands and base caps make perfection easier.

[Mel Fulks]

In dealing with carpenters on things that need to be milled for them it's amusing to see how the good ones have different ideas. Some make a big deal about getting door jamb material that suits them. Want all the material plenty wide so they don't "have to beat back the Sheetrock" others want them a little narrower and they will "just beat back the sheetrock". I hope the two factions never go to war.

[Robert Parent]

The so-called professional which finished my house was totally clueless...... After living in the place about 6 months, I ripped out all the trim as I could not stand looking at it any longer. I pity the next professional person that sells me a house!!! Live and learn as they say....

Robert

[Justin Ludwig]

The so-called professional which finished my house was totally clueless...... After living in the place about 6 months, I ripped out all the trim as I could not stand looking at it any longer. I pity the next professional person that sells me a house!!! Live and learn as they say....

Robert

I had to do the same, plus rehang every door.

[Ole Anderson]

I did all of my stained trim in the house except for the crown molding. Turned out OK, not professional. I have since seen a few tricks that would have helped me. My kitchen crown was custom molded, and I knew if I tried it, I would get so many backwards, I would run short. I had a buddy and his helper come in and do all the stained crown in the kitchen and painted crown in the hall and living room in a day. Including all of the caulk on the pre-painted crown. I would have had a stack of mis-cuts a mile high.

[Ben Grunow]

Practice using the miter saw as a shooting board. Lightly putting the stock against the saw body and you can shave 1/64 off.

We call this the touch and go. Pass it to your helper and say "give the touch and go".

I did about 15 years in the field and would take it any day but the shop can get old- standing in a small space tends to make me stiff. Lack of snow or rain is good though.

[sebastian phillips]

Mr. Quinn describes the difference between shop and site work perfectly. A real finish carpenter makes things fit and look perfect in the imperfect world of framing lumber, drywall mud, out of parallel surfaces, etc. Add in doing this with other trades in the way, less than perfect lighting, poor dust collection, and you have a totally different challenge than assembling components in a well-lit, climate controlled shop with accurate machinery.
Yet there are craftsman who efficiently and accurately install complex trim in homes and commercial buildings. They have systems and a mindset. It doesn't take a perfectionist, just experience, a good eye, and planning.
I find the stories of so called "professionals" who are actually hacks more an indictement of the homeowners who hire them.
If you are going to hire someone to do finish work in your own home, or a building you care about, do some homework. Check some references, see some actual work in place.
You're hiring a craftsman, not a salesman.

[Michael Zerance]

Mr. Quinn describes the difference between shop and site work perfectly. A real finish carpenter makes things fit and look perfect in the imperfect world of framing lumber, drywall mud, out of parallel surfaces, etc. Add in doing this with other trades in the way, less than perfect lighting, poor dust collection, and you have a totally different challenge than assembling components in a well-lit, climate controlled shop with accurate machinery.
Yet there are craftsman who efficiently and accurately install complex trim in homes and commercial buildings. They have systems and a mindset. It doesn't take a perfectionist, just experience, a good eye, and planning.
I find the stories of so called "professionals" who are actually hacks more an indictement of the homeowners who hire them.
If you are going to hire someone to do finish work in your own home, or a building you care about, do some homework. Check some references, see some actual work in place.
You're hiring a craftsman, not a salesman.

Exactly!

When my customers are on the fence (usually because they have a handyman that will do the work for half the price), I offer to take them around to other projects I have done in the area and I invite them to peruse the project gallery on my website. Price doesn't seem to be a factor after that; I think they need to actually see the craftsmanship that they are paying for.

[Frederick Skelly]

I find the stories of so called "professionals" who are actually hacks more an indictement of the homeowners who hire them. If you are going to hire someone to do finish work in your own home, or a building you care about, do some homework. Check some references, see some actual work in place. You're hiring a craftsman, not a salesman.

You really do get what you pay for. I saw this quote on the wall of an auto body shop a few years ago and it really drove home the point: "We do $200 paint jobs and $2000 paint jobs. Don't pay for one and expect the other."

I admire good finish carpenters.
Fred