Sawstop Craig's List Sale, Fraud

[Larry Dunn]

My wife was concerned about my safety while using my table saw. She was aware of the Sawstop and wanted me to purchase one. I was rumbling around on Craig's List and found an almost new, or like new 3 HP rig with a lot of options. The 1st ad I ran across explain that due to a job change he could not take the saw with him as the ad went on to explain. The price was right up there so I decided to pass. A couple of weeks later the same ad was listed along with another ad with the same photos that had a price of $1200. We thought to ourselves that he must of had to get rid of it now. I responded and received a text from someone that explained it was now for sale from a Pawn shop with a number you insert and locate the item on their web site. Sure enough it was there. Very professional web site with chat features and the whole bit. Both my wife and I have been around the block long enough to check the outfit out and it came up clean. I paid them their money as one would normally with a Pawn shop. They guaranteed shipment in 5 days via Fed Ex. 10 days later I tried to check on my purchase and of course no answer. A little looking and I found the same ad several places through out the country on Craig's List and other sites. A little more looking and found 2 Craig's List postings explaining this was a fraud. A little more looking and found a link to another ad via the North Carolina Woodworkers site to another Craig's List ad. And it was connected to someone's name and or profile with a note letting people know it was not his but was fro sale at the link he provided.

I converted every part of my transaction to a PDF form. I also did the same with every thing else I found, including ads and other links. Now we are nobodies dummy and this stuff not only looks good, but checks out good and would be happy to provide all of the documentation to support what we are saying. We have turned this in to the FBI and will with all other agencies that pertain to this.

If they can attach this stuff to another woodworking sites for sale, why not Sawmill Creek?

I did purchase a Saw stop just the same but it cost me a bundle. Of course I don't expect to get my money back, but it thought putting this post out there would stop someone else from purchasing the same saw I bought, and I am sure others did as well. Please keep in mind that due to my wife's position we have the tools to check these things and don't get taken in easily. This scam is the best of the best. How anyone would expect to get away with this for any period of time is beyond me. Nor can I understand how anything so elaborate could be worth the effort and expense required to do something like this with small ticket items for such a short period of time.

I personally am caulking this one up and would not have posted this unless I found the other woodworking site link.

Larry

[Kent Adams]

Did you pay the pawnshop with a credit card? I hope so because you can get your money back. I never pay anyone online anything without thinking "how will I get my money back if things go wrong".

[Mike Goetzke]

I saw this ad a couple weeks ago in the Chicago area. I was tempted to contact the seller also but like you did I checked CL across the country and found about a dozen ads in other states so stayed clear.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Never ever ever buy anything from a craigslist seller unless it is in person, you can see and touch the item, and it is in cash!!

[Ben Rivel]

Thats terrible. I saw the same ad here in Sacramento, CA and knew something was up. Of course I noticed right after getting the shipping confirmation for me 3HP PCS 36" with all the fixings! At first I though aw man did I make a mistake, then I figured it was probably a scam and that I had got a great deal on the setup and bought from an authorized SawStop dealer so I was much better off than buying used anyway.

[Larry Dunn]

Check your Pawn sites. You have2 options; 1st you can pay with a pre-paid debit card or a direct cash deposit. This is normal and done all the time. Pawn shops for all practical purposes very honest. It goes without saying; I did not buy from a private individual. My point in posting this is; this outfit is somehow infiltrating woodworking sites and I am sure other venues, and attaching these ads. That is a security problem that needs to be addressed. For the record many companies sell off of Craig's List. To answer Kent's comment; no pawn shop takes credit cards.

Anyway the reason for posting this is simple. Please follow closely. The tread directly off the North Carolina website was dated; 8-20-2006. My PDF copy shows todays date on the bottom of the page. I also have a PDF copy of the ad, with the same info on the bottom of the PDF. The thread cannot be responded to or changed in anyway as it is closed. However it has a 2 or 3 day link attached to it that was active a short while ago. Just hours. The question is; how did it get there? Lets faces it, that was a long time ago.

I just spoke with a rep from NC woodworkers site. He will be checking to see with his tech savvy guys to see how that could happen. I do not know enough about this web stuff to comment other than to say; it doesn't work that way. And my primary concern (not to repeat myself), that someone else does not get ripped off. Especially because it is clear it happening through at least 1 woodworking site. If that kind of thing can help, what else?

So as you can see this is not about poor me. I can afford it. Can our other member's?

[ken carroll]

I saw this saw on the SF Bay Craigslist a couple weeks ago. It is still on there. If it weren't obviously a scam just based on the low price, the fact that the "seller" here called it a "3HP band saw" would be a good clue!

[Mark Engel]

Just to clarify one point.

What the OP 'found' on NCWW was not an ad for this SawStop scam. He found a thread, from 2006, where a user posted a link to the ad on CraigsList. Further reading of that thread reveals the CraigsList ad as a scam.

Please do not continue to call that thread an 'ad'. NCWW never advertised that scam.

[Matt Meiser]

No offense but a $1200 Sawstop that will be shipped and must be paid for by unrecoverable funds screams "SCAM" from the mountaintops. Its not a security issue that needs to be addressed, its a public education, people so willing to save a buck they ignore the obvious issue. Who cares if they purport to be a pawn shop.

[Larry Dunn]

Mark for the sake of getting the right information to the right folks maybe you can help me with something. I am not signed up on the NCWW website or what ever it is called. Of course I can't follow the thread with the information you spoke of. I just reviewed my PDF of the thread. And it does not go that far. Looking up at what I wrote I copied it here; " The thread directly off the North Carolina website was dated; 8-20-2006." Now this is no place to discuss software or the inner workings of the internet, but I think it does beg explanation. Here is how it works; if you have Adobe Acrobat (not Reader), you can make a PDF copy of the web page. Based on the Adobe software standard settings, you will pick up a certain amount of metadata from the site or thread or whatever you want to call it. In simple words; they posted a link over the link that had expired on the thread. This was something I stumbled onto. In other words I typed in 'sawstop craig's list'. I thought what the heck, this is from 2006 lets see what happens. My wife who was sitting here could not believe it when it went directly to a recent Craig's list ad. I made a PDF of that ad, (Craig's List). So at this point I now have a snap shot, (with date and time stamp) and the metadata taking me to the Craig's list ad. The metadata on the PDF copy takes the link right back to the NCWW thread. Its clearly shown on the PDF documents.

I hope that helps explain what happened. And as not an expert in these things I can only conclude that someone, somehow, added that link to the closed thread on the NCWW website. I don't believe in anyway that NCWW has anything to do with this, or the person that posted the thread. But it did happen.

As a side note about how good a deal this was, is to say; good deal yes, but within reason for many reasons that I find it not necessary to explain fully on this site. Anyone that would like can e-mail me directly if they care to get a better understanding of what I have, how I got it, and what could it possibly mean. Possibly is the key word here. The saw actually would cost you way more than $1200. $286 was added to ship anywhere in the US proper. What you would get is a used item, no warranty, that has a retail value of $3600. If the item was brokered by a Pawn shop, depending on the conditions, is slightly below what I think a used item such as this should go for, by about $600.

The point I am making and have made is; beware of it if you see the ad and it is clear based on my documentation, that someone somehow added that link to the NCWW thread. If they can do that, what else will they do on this site or other sites. Keep in mind the Craig's List ads are just ads that take you to what appears to be a legitimate seller.


I agree with everyone that this sale was ,as it has been put; almost too good to be true. My wife who has the tools, support groups, and the know how to check these people out came up clean. And in the process of checking some 8 - 10 or so I think, Craig's List ads (yes I found that many), were getting flagged by Craig's list almost as fast as I could get to them(yesterday). Of course I took PDF's of all of that as well.

I hope that helps someone out there. I further hope that anyone that has any relevant information would pass that on to me, via a direct e-mail through this site. As this is bigger than it appears and could not have possibly been done this way without it being a collective effort (lots of people). What will it morphosis into is anyone's guess. Or how it might effect these types of informational sharing sites and the security of the individuals that use the site.

[Jesse Busenitz]

I saw a ST ad on my local CL and my first thought was "that's a screaming deal!" , so I bookmarked it came back a couple hours later and it had been flagged. If something sounds too good to be true... it probably is.

[Harvey Miller]

Thanks for the heads up. To my mind dealing on Craig's list, or other classified ad site is truly the wild west. The only transactions to make are cash on the barrelhead for goods you can see, touch, and taste!

[Matt Meiser]

Based on the Adobe software standard settings, you will pick up a certain amount of metadata from the site or thread or whatever you want to call it. In simple words; they posted a link over the link that had expired on the thread.

Or a lot more likely, you have spyware on your computer.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I saw a ST ad on my local CL and my first thought was "that's a screaming deal!" , so I bookmarked it came back a couple hours later and it had been flagged. If something sounds too good to be true... it probably is.


Not knocking anyone who gets taken, it happens.........when it comes to CL I ALWAYS need a telephone number to talk about the item. You can tell a lot about a person or item over the phone. I may start with an email if the number is not available but I will ask for one so we can talk. If they don't give it I'm out. Once I get the number I google it. Sometimes it shows up on dozens of CL adds, that will tell you something. If I am selling something and your coming to my house I ask for your home number first. At least that way I also know where you live if things go south.

A few years ago I was looking for a side by side (John Deere Gator type vehicle) there are a ton. If it was way under market Value I didn't even bother. In this day and age with CL and EBay everyone pretty much knows what everything is worth, with very little exception, not much gets undersold.

[Larry Dunn]

I received this in an e-mail from someone else that has been scammed. I have NO thoughts of getting any money back. I copied it and pasted it below;
I agree with every you said. I am retired law enforcement and no the limitations
of powers. It is a fairly large operation as you said. Swapping phone numbers,
emails, texts, & chats. My tip off was the Fed ex email address then
asking to take a picture with my Driver license next to my my face for
verification. The email had many Grammer issues. Then I was able to reserve the
same unique item 4 times using 4 different emails even tho I had already bought
it and it was supposedly in transit to me

[Myk Rian]

Report the post/s to CL. They will deal with the crook if they get enough reports.

[Mark Engel]

Mark for the sake of getting the right information to the right folks maybe you can help me with something. I am not signed up on the NCWW website or what ever it is called. Of course I can't follow the thread with the information you spoke of. I just reviewed my PDF of the thread. And it does not go that far. Looking up at what I wrote I copied it here; " The thread directly off the North Carolina website was dated; 8-20-2006." Now this is no place to discuss software or the inner workings of the internet, but I think it does beg explanation. Here is how it works; if you have Adobe Acrobat (not Reader), you can make a PDF copy of the web page. Based on the Adobe software standard settings, you will pick up a certain amount of metadata from the site or thread or whatever you want to call it. In simple words; they posted a link over the link that had expired on the thread. This was something I stumbled onto. In other words I typed in 'sawstop craig's list'. I thought what the heck, this is from 2006 lets see what happens. My wife who was sitting here could not believe it when it went directly to a recent Craig's list ad. I made a PDF of that ad, (Craig's List). So at this point I now have a snap shot, (with date and time stamp) and the metadata taking me to the Craig's list ad. The metadata on the PDF copy takes the link right back to the NCWW thread. Its clearly shown on the PDF documents.

I hope that helps explain what happened. And as not an expert in these things I can only conclude that someone, somehow, added that link to the closed thread on the NCWW website. I don't believe in anyway that NCWW has anything to do with this, or the person that posted the thread. But it did happen.

As a side note about how good a deal this was, is to say; good deal yes, but within reason for many reasons that I find it not necessary to explain fully on this site. Anyone that would like can e-mail me directly if they care to get a better understanding of what I have, how I got it, and what could it possibly mean. Possibly is the key word here. The saw actually would cost you way more than $1200. $286 was added to ship anywhere in the US proper. What you would get is a used item, no warranty, that has a retail value of $3600. If the item was brokered by a Pawn shop, depending on the conditions, is slightly below what I think a used item such as this should go for, by about $600.

The point I am making and have made is; beware of it if you see the ad and it is clear based on my documentation, that someone somehow added that link to the NCWW thread. If they can do that, what else will they do on this site or other sites. Keep in mind the Craig's List ads are just ads that take you to what appears to be a legitimate seller.


I agree with everyone that this sale was ,as it has been put; almost too good to be true. My wife who has the tools, support groups, and the know how to check these people out came up clean. And in the process of checking some 8 - 10 or so I think, Craig's List ads (yes I found that many), were getting flagged by Craig's list almost as fast as I could get to them(yesterday). Of course I took PDF's of all of that as well.

I hope that helps someone out there. I further hope that anyone that has any relevant information would pass that on to me, via a direct e-mail through this site. As this is bigger than it appears and could not have possibly been done this way without it being a collective effort (lots of people). What will it morphosis into is anyone's guess. Or how it might effect these types of informational sharing sites and the security of the individuals that use the site.

I have looked at the thread on NCWW from 2006 that you are referring to. The link to the Craigslist ad is still there in the original initial post. When I click on that link itopens a page on Craigslist stating that the ad no longer exists. This is normal behavior for closed or expired ads on Craigslist.

There is another thread on NCWW from 2014 also showing a 'killer' deal on a SawStop on Craigslsit and also discussed in that thread as being a scam. It is probably the same or simila Craigslist ad as the one from 2006 that you found. The Craigslist link in that ad also shows that the ad was expired or was deleted.

No link that I click on in either of those two NCWW threads behaves the way you have described.

A couple of points:
Even though you are not a member at NCWW, you still have the ability to read through any thread in it's entirety on the site, You just cannot post to the thread unless you are a member.

I am an administrator at NCWW and I can tell you that no one can make a change to a closed thread in the manner that you have described. Unless someone has administrator privileges, they are not able to make changes to a link in someone else's post or even in their own post, once the thread has been closed.

[Ronald Blue]

It's unfortunate you got taken but the old saying "if it's to good to be true it probably is" comes to mind. Someone good on the computer can make things look pretty legit. There are lot's of things about this that would have concerned me. The first being you have no remedy if it's not for real. The other being the price. This is just to cheap to be real. I just did some quick scanning of craigslist and they were busy posting their scam ads from the last of October into early November. I found one still active for Reno with the $1200 price. Just an added thought here. You state that most pawn shops are honest. I would say that most pawn shops operate within the law. They are there to make money and I assure you if it were a legit deal there isn't a pawn shop around that wouldn't know what the value of a SawStop would be. They might buy one for a bargain price but they will be going for maximum dollar on resale.

[Keith Weber]

Call me a cynic, but a price too good to be true, the mention of a pawn shop, and the fact that they wanted you to send your payment before shipping on a CL ad, all scream SCAM. I wouldn't touch that one with a 10-foot pole. I've had quite a few deals fall into my lap where the price was too good to be true, but they have always involved me going to an individuals house or business with cash upon inspection and pickup. I did get a laugh, though, out of the statement that the pawn shop's website "checked out". Scammers replicate websites of banks, eBay, investment brokers, etc. Just because it's online and elaborate does not make it legit.

[Jon Grider]

No offense but a $1200 Sawstop that will be shipped and must be paid for by unrecoverable funds screams "SCAM" from the mountaintops. Its not a security issue that needs to be addressed, its a public education, people so willing to save a buck they ignore the obvious issue. Who cares if they purport to be a pawn shop.
What he said. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

[Dick Strauss]

There is the same ad for a Sawstop for $1200 in Lincoln, NE, Des Moines IA, Santa Fe NM, Brunswick GA, Lafayette LA, Dayton OH, Chillicothe OH, Oregon Coast along with many more flagged for removal. I've flagged all of those ads that I found. For some reason many listings have two buttons for "show contact info". The ads show a bunch of phone numbers in Guerneville, CA that exist on VOIP so there is no telling where the scammers are. Naive me but maybe CL will do something about this if enough folks contact them.

[Bill Orbine]

FYI, Craigslist has a link about scams and how to avoid them: http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams

The SawStop ad has some of the hallmarks mentioned in the link.

[Matt Meiser]

No link that I click on in either of those two NCWW threads behaves the way you have described.

But if he had spyware on his computer...

[Larry Dunn]

You are corrected when you say, if you click on the link you get something else and I have stated that on many occasions. But it did happen. These folks are good. I am not a real follower of this these types of sites and don't know the ins and outs of following threads and on and on.

I was under the impression that the purpose of these sites is to share experiences, discuss techniques, seek advice about equipment purchases, in all areas, and this was a banded community that helps each other out. My attempt was to put the warning out there. Instead I am hearing only that I am some kind of dummy or how can you be so stupid? No where in here have I asked for a shoulder to cry on. The if I should of, could of, certainly doesn't help the situation.

I have heard here that others have seen the ad, but no one has mentioned flagging the ad. The members that have seen these ads can flag them. To the best of my knowledge that is the only way to prevent someone else from get taken in, in the 1st place.

Hacking happens all the time. These types of individuals are very good at covering their tracks in ways we can only imagine. I could go on and on, as to how this checking was done, who we are, the facilities we have available to us to check things, but I can see no one is interested. Nor are we hanging around on the internet to notice patterns either. We can only do the best we can. Sometimes things go wrong.

I know I have found some incredible deals at Pawn shops and that has helped with the costs of the items I have purchased the last 18 months since I began collecting equipment. I had no shop, no nothing when I started. Bought some things that just didn't cut the mustard and had to change equipment out for higher quality stuff, pretty much the same way most of the folks here have done over a period of years. It was a large investment in such a short amount of time. I know those that are into woodworking would love to have some of the things I have purchased, and at the prices I paid.

I am not a woodworker and in reality doubt I ever will be. I do know concrete and steel, I did not know one board from another when I started this. Frankly, I still don't. But I am trying. And we all have our own reasons for getting into this stuff.

We made these purchase to build valances, and a type of woodwork we could not find for sale anywhere. At some time I hoped to build a CD case to match a custom built stereo cabinet I had built to match our furniture. At least one cabinet (no doors) for one of our bathrooms, that list goes on.

I stumbled onto this site in an attempt to resolve issues I was having and have found some excellent suggestions. I have submitted some, or I think contributed at least one jointer safety device (since re-designed), provided a hand built pattern to another member for a shop apron. Supplied some photos of some of the organizational systems I came up with, and so on.

I believe no one is an island on to themselves and every one needs help with some things. What I am hearing is more of a 'know it all response', again, you're a dumpy, again how can you be so stupid, and there is no way that can happen. I am also not the only one to get taken in as you can see a retired law enforcement officer did. I suppose he is a dummy too. At this point we know of many more folks beyond what I have mentioned. In other areas of purchase not related to woodworking. Most professional people.

It seems that the woodworking community is too beyond that and it will never happen to them, or so it seems. I don't know what else I can take from this. Other than to say, it has no added value for me. I will close this out with that.

My intentions were, and I will repeat my self; watch out for this. Seems no one is interested, so nothing more should be said.

[Dan Hintz]

My intentions were, and I will repeat my self; watch out for this. Seems no one is interested, so nothing more should be said.

If that's the only thing you got from the discourse here, then perhaps forums in general aren't for you... part of a forum is other people putting in their two cents worth, exactly what was done here. Further suggestions, similar (and differing) experiences, etc. If you're looking for complete agreement from every single person, you'll be sadly disappointed... forums aren't like that.

[Frederick Skelly]

Larry, thanks for the warning post. You probably DID save someone from a mistake. I also "get" putting out the word and trying to gather leads you can pass on to law enforcement or whoever - maybe your wife's "contacts".

Pawnshops around here would never sell that saw at 1/3 its retail value. Here, it would have been listed for $2500, minimum. And I mean minimum. I've never been able to find any real deals locally, and I dont trust pawnshops enough in general to use unrecoverable funds. But if you have, then average the $1200 lost over all your deals and maybe it was still worthwhile to take that approach.

Luck to you!
Fred

[Ronald Blue]

Larry, I am sure you may well have felt like we were kicking you around. That wasn't my intent but it probably sounded that way. That's the thing about text. How it's written and how it reads can be opposite ends of the spectrum. What Frederick says is exactly how I see most pawn shops I have visited. Think of this, if they were for real going to sell that saw for $1200 then they bought it for $600 to $800. The pawn shops I know of in my area would snatch it up for that amount but without a doubt they would have it priced at $2500 to $3000. If you have done well in the past with pawn shops kudos to you. While I visit them 2-3 times a year just to see if they have something I might want I rarely find anything. The last time one did they wouldn't come down any so I walked out. It is a bummer you were robbed. The best thing for anyone to take from this is be cautious and check for multiple ads in different venues advertising the same thing. It's easily done with a statewide search tool for craigslist. There might be a nationwide one and if so I am sure someone will offer that information up. Good luck and the fact that there are still being ads placed might allow law enforcement to track them down.

[Kent Adams]

Larry, I am sure you may well have felt like we were kicking you around. That wasn't my intent but it probably sounded that way. That's the thing about text. How it's written and how it reads can be opposite ends of the spectrum. What Frederick says is exactly how I see most pawn shops I have visited. Think of this, if they were for real going to sell that saw for $1200 then they bought it for $600 to $800. The pawn shops I know of in my area would snatch it up for that amount but without a doubt they would have it priced at $2500 to $3000. If you have done well in the past with pawn shops kudos to you. While I visit them 2-3 times a year just to see if they have something I might want I rarely find anything. The last time one did they wouldn't come down any so I walked out. It is a bummer you were robbed. The best thing for anyone to take from this is be cautious and check for multiple ads in different venues advertising the same thing. It's easily done with a statewide search tool for craigslist. There might be a nationwide one and if so I am sure someone will offer that information up. Good luck and the fact that there are still being ads placed might allow law enforcement to track them down.

Nationwide search of CL: http://www.onecraigs.com/

[Jim Becker]

Sadly, this is a classic CL scam...high-dollar item that looks nearly new offered for an unrealistically low price because the seller "can't take it with them" or has already moved out of the country, etc. Horse trailers are a very common target for this, for example, and it makes sense that big-dollar, in-demand tools would also be attractive to the folks who are scamming. One way to identify many of these deals is to do a search on the photos in the ad. Quite often, the same photo will come up in multiple places all over the internet, the reason being that the person or persons posting the bogus ad(s) have stolen the photo from a legitimate ad which is more effective than using a stock photo from a manufacturer.

Larry, I'm sad that you lost out on this but thank you for posting about it...perhaps it will save someone else from some grief and financial pain.

[Wade Lippman]

It's unfortunate you got taken but the old saying "if it's to good to be true it probably is" comes to mind.

That's simply not true. I've bought 300bf of oak for $1, an unused DC for $50, and nice wetsuit for $12. You just have to be careful. Sending someone a check for $1,200 simply isn't being careful.

[Carroll Courtney]

Thank you Larry for taking the time to post and it has created a very good dialogue.I believe that your not the only one that has been taken,I think that we all have at one or another.But look at it this way,you did not know.Then you have people that spend money to get to a casino,pay them to take their money and they still smile.Humor!!! Serious,its a shame that we live in a time where things like this is becoming routine,even forums can't guarantee an honest seller.Time has brought us to the point to where a person needs to be cautious all the time.You learn a lesson,and you pass on what you learned to the members so thank you----Carroll

[Ronald Blue]

I stand by my words. You could check it out in person at least I seriously doubt you had the lumber shipped and probably not the wet suit either. That and risking a dollar is nothing compared to $1200. Even if you did it all online you still weren't out the cost of a cup of coffee. Enough said without repeating what is already redundant here.


That's simply not true. I've bought 300bf of oak for $1, an unused DC for $50, and nice wetsuit for $12. You just have to be careful. Sending someone a check for $1,200 simply isn't being careful.

[Peter Quinn]

Not even maybe would I send anybody unrecoverable funds for a "screaming deal" that they are going to ship to me. That deal stinks from 100 miles away. Craig's list has its benefits, but there is a lot of fraud potential built in. I just assume every deal is a scam, crags list advise you only deal with local sellers, don't send anybody money, work in cash when possible. I feel bad that you got scammed, but did it really never occur to you that sending these people money was a bad idea?