Face Frame problem

[Mark Gibney]

I'm making a pantry for the hallway of a client. The cabinets will be face frame. The problem is that I can't make the ff off site and take it there because the doorways are too small to fit it through.

The hall is just over 8' long, the same high. The pantry is going to take up all of one wall.

So far I plan on milling the lumber for the frame and taking it to the site. I'll set up a chop saw station and cut to final length there, then I'll use glue and pins to attach the rails and stiles to the boxes.

This is stain grade, not paint grade, so I of course want tight joints I can't think of any other way to make the joints other than what I said above.

I'm hoping that as the boxes will be rigid that the ff will stay tight together, but I'm willing to consider another approach if anyone has any ideas.

[Tom Giacomo]

I hate cabinet work on site, it seems you never have all the tools you need and quality suffers. I would try to make my ff in the shop using half laps or screws to be sure everything is flat and joints tight then unscrew and rebuild on site.

[Jerry Miner]

Are you sure you can't make this in modules that can be transported to the site? Maybe with a separate toe kick base so the boxes can be tilted up, then set on the bases and a trim piece added at the ceiling? That is our SOP

We will often have one stile knock-down and attached on site, but there is usually a way to attach most of the FF in the shop

[George Bokros]

Assemble the rails and stiles with pocket hole screws. Can be done on site then install the assembled face frame to the cabinet boxes.

[Prashun Patel]

I agree with George - pocket screws. You can't even get the frames per each unit into the area?

If you have to assemble the frames in situ, then can you dowel or domino them?

[John TenEyck]

I could understand not being able to get a big cabinet through a doorway, but you said you can't get the FF through. I find that nearly impossible to believe. But even if true, you should still be able to cut all the parts in your shop and assemble them on site with pocket screws and then biscuit and glue it to the box. If you can't get the box through the doorway, then I'd make it in smaller modules as already suggested. Do everything possible in the shop.

John

[Mark Gibney]

I did think about pocket screws, and I might still go that way. It seems none of you are confident I'll get tight joints by the method I outlined.

The two end stiles are full length, and the top and bottom rails are full width. If I made the ff in the shop and disassembled it I would have to hold the pieces far enough off the front of the boxes (on site) to get my arm with a screw gun behind the set up and then screw them back together. I can see how this could work, just makes me nervous. If I leave a small gap along each wall instead of the stiles being tight that will make it more possible. Thanks for you feedback!

[Mark Gibney]

John, the boxes are not a problem, the largest is just about 6' 6" long. The problem is that the ff is going to be basically 8' x 8' - the end stiles are full length, as are the top and bottom rails.

[Prashun Patel]

Mark-
I think we may be having trouble visualizing what you are trying to do. Can you post a picture of your units or at least a little sketch?
If you build the face frames per box instead of full width, then you can attach each before installation, and then just glue or screw the face frames together. I did a mudroom closet where neighboring units shared a single face frame stile, and I wouldn't do that again. IMHO it wasn't worth it the effort.

[Tom Ewell]

Did a large set of book cases that needed full face frame to tie together, careful layout with pre cut parts, using dominos for case alignment and glue base (biscuits could work) and pocket screws to hold the face frame together.

Needed to set up horses/2x4s to assemble the frames on site, fortunately there was enough room to do so, all fit :)

Used blocks with shelf pin holes and 1/4" short rods to insert into case pin holes as a clamping aid, took care not to torque down too much to distort the case holes.

Pin 'nailer' was involved in there somewhere too.

[Peter Quinn]

John, the boxes are not a problem, the largest is just about 6' 6" long. The problem is that the ff is going to be basically 8' x 8' - the end stiles are full length, as are the top and bottom rails.


We build boxes too big to fit in the house all the time, it begins at the drawing board. You say the rails are full length and the stiles too...stiles no problem, rails big problem. Break up the rails, run the mid stiles to the ground, use a loose base or ladder kick, keep the bottom rail off the floor and the top rail off the ceiling, add an applied base molding in he field and a crown. I can't make the sky purple on the third Thursday in May just because a designer wants it that way, and I can't make an 8X8 face frame fit in a small hallway. But you can design a beautiful cabinet with appropriate field joints that can be completed 95% in the shop. I usually use dominos at a rail/style intersection because they give a real solid connection that can be sanded flush in dry assembly in the shop and reassembled in the field. I use the pathogrian theorem to make sure I can stand the boxes up, if absolutely necessary we send face frames loose and field assemble to cases with pocked screws. But never do we attempt to field fabricate stain grade frames on site. Just not going to happen. Design that out of the picture is my best advice.

[George Bokros]

The pocket screws are only used to assemble the face frame. Use Dominos or biscuits to attach the face frame to the carcass.

[Mark Gibney]

Thanks, lots of good advice. Plenty for me to go over when I get home tonight.

[Jeff Duncan]

I think making a faceframe onsite is just not a good way to go about it. I would make 2 frames in the shop that I could attach to each other on site. Where they meet each vertical would be half it's normal width, so once glued up it would become a normal width vertical. Then you just have one seam to sand flush on site. You wouldn't have your full width top and bottom rails…..but a single frame that big is highly unusual anyway. I think visually it would look just fine. More importantly the rest of the FF is going to look much better having been built in a shop as opposed to cobbled together in someones living room;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Martin Wasner]

Make every vertical opening a separate box. You'll have to run the stiles through, and one stile will stay with one box, and one with the other. Assemble everything in the shop as one box using tape to create a space between boxes. Once the face frame is on, and you've disassembled things again, peel the tape and you'll have a few thousandth of space ensuring the split joints on the face frame go back together tightly.

We too build cabinets too big for the house all the time. No biggie.

[Mark Gibney]

Okay I'm convinced. Prashun, Martin and the rest of you all say don't make the frame onsite as one big unit, make it in modules, so that's what I'll do.