shooting Board: flat or ramped?

[Ray Newman]

Colleagues: thinking about building an "improved" shooting board. Other than equalizing the blade wear, is there any other advantage of a ramp?

Appreciate any insights....

[Mike Henderson]

None that I can see.

Mike

[Pat Barry]

It will also increase the effort required by the user so that's a good thing if you want to build up your triceps et al.

[Robert Payne]

A ramped shooting board is appropriate for paring inside miters on casing or base molding on furniture pieces -- but a flat shooting board with 45 degree stops will work well for framing or small moldings.

[Jim Koepke]

For me a flat shooting board with a low angle Jack works fine.

With a ramped board one would need to make sure the ramp is causing the plane to push down on the work and not lifting the work.

If I make another shooting board, my main concern will be the thickness of the support table. Currently all of my boards use standard 3/4" stock. A bit too much of the blade on the bottom is doing nothing. Hopefully something in the 3/8-1/2" range will give a little more blade to use on thick stock.

jtk

[Matthew N. Masail]

A ramped board would be great if you know the stock thickness and nice to have in addition to a flat one, not instead. For wide miters I just made one of these http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/wwmitreshootingboard.html work like a champ

[john zulu]

I built a ramp board and it is definitely easy to use compared to a flat shooting board. Just think about skew the board while planing. I will recommend building one.

[Derek Cohen]

Colleagues: thinking about building an "improved" shooting board. Other than equalizing the blade wear, is there any other advantage of a ramp?

Appreciate any insights....

Ray, it depends on the plane you use.

If you have a skew-bladed plane (such as a Stanley/LN/Veritas #51-type), then use a flat shooting board. There is no advantage here in using a ramped board. No only does the ramp reduce the skew, but the ramp does not spread wear significantly enough to warrant the time and effort of building a ramped board.

However, if you use a straight-blade plane (such as a bench plane of a LA/BU plane), the the ramped board is indeed worth the effort. What it does is reduce the impact. The ramped is enough to skew the blade so that it enters the wood progressively. This is not the same as a slicing cut, so do not confuse the two.

There are a number of articles on ramped (and other) shooting boards on my website. Search down through this Index page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/index.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlockPlane_html_71a1e942.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

There is no advantage to a ramped shooting board except at the very entry into the cut and again at the very exit of the cut. Everywhere else in the cut the plane blade is actually contacting more material due to the angle than it is in a perpendicular situation. There is no argument in this, it is purely physics and geometry. Take for example an end grain shooting situation with a 1/2 inch thick board and a ramp angle of 10 degrees. The effective width of cut due to the ramp will be about 0.51" as compared to the 0.50" for the perpendicular cut. You might feel better thinking you are gaining some advantage over nature but its a fallacy

[Brian Holcombe]

The entry into the cut is where one would normally like the advantage.

[Robert Engel]

Pat's point is taken, but isn't any advantage related to slicing of the skew effect?

I think this is one of those things you just have to try for yourself.

[Derek Cohen]

The entry into the cut is where one would normally like the advantage.

Exactly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

The skew angle would be the advantage but, these discussions often end up polarized so you will have to read through and judge for yourself. A ramped mock-up would take a short time to cobble together and may be the only way to find which camp you are in ;-)

[Kees Heiden]

No, a ramped shooting board is like face planing a board over one of the diagonals. That is something else then a skewed cut, which is straight across the board but with the plane hold on a skewing angle. The only way to get a skewing cut on a shooting board is with a plane with a skewed iron, like the Stanley 51. Just like Derek allready mentioned above.

Luckilly shooting works very well with a normal bench plane and a flat shooting board. You can save yourself a bit of time, making a flat one and you can save yourself a whole bunch of money when you don´t buy one of these expensive planes from LV or LN. When you start a professional carreer, shooting heavy timber all day long, then one of these is probably a good investment. You can also save a bunch of time when you don´t want to shoot every board in the neighbourhood, only do it when you really need it.

[Pat Barry]

The entry into the cut is where one would normally like the advantage.
Sure, I can see that, but that will only help you for the first couple milliseconds

[Jim Koepke]

A ramped board would be great if you know the stock thickness and nice to have in addition to a flat one, not instead. For wide miters I just made one of these http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/wwmitreshootingboard.html work like a champ

There are a lot of ways to shoot a well fitting miter. A different approach to this is often called a donkey ear:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157217-Eight-Eared-Donkey

Here is another for use on small items:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192600-The-Mighty-Miter-Shooter

The block of wood with the 45º ramp can also be used set on the shooting board flat so the miter is cut on the horizontal edge of the work piece:

325381

Here is a finished miter:

325380

There are many ways to get the job done, make your pick and take your chances.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Sure, I can see that, but that will only help you for the first couple milliseconds

If one has a shoulder as bunged up as mine, those "first couple of milliseconds" can make all the difference in the world between getting the job done or being in need of pain relief for the next few days. The initial shock is what "kills" my shoulder, not the work of pushing the plane.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

If one has a shoulder as bunged up as mine, those "first couple of milliseconds" can make all the difference in the world between getting the job done or being in need of pain relief for the next few days. The initial shock is what "kills" my shoulder, not the work of pushing the plane.

jtk
There really wouldn't be any measurable improvement. Best solution would be to have your plane ramp go downhill. Maybe Kees could use his setup and measure test the forces involved??

[Steve Voigt]

There really wouldn't be any measurable improvement. Best solution would be to have your plane ramp go downhill. Maybe Kees could use his setup and measure test the forces involved??

Or, you could do what everyone keeps telling you to do, and actually try it out. It would take about 10 seconds of cutting for your abstract reasoning to crumble in the face of actual, concrete experience.

Theoretical models are nice, if we can verify them with real-world experience. If we can't, we should reconsider the model. You, on the other hand, seem to be suggesting that we should doubt our perception, which is exactly backwards.

[Pat Barry]

Or, you could do what everyone keeps telling you to do, and actually try it out. It would take about 10 seconds of cutting for your abstract reasoning to crumble in the face of actual, concrete experience.

Theoretical models are nice, if we can verify them with real-world experience. If we can't, we should reconsider the model. You, on the other hand, seem to be suggesting that we should doubt our perception, which is exactly backwards.
Sorry - I don't need to try it. Practical physics supports my contention, not abstract conjecture. If you all are happy with the ramp then so be it. I suggest that you do the testing to prove out your new physics discovery.

Edit: I think some of you are confusing the act of skewing the plane or using a plane with a skewed blade with the angle of the board relative to the plane with a ramp. They are not the same. Skewing the plane effectively lowers the plane blade angle. The ramp doesn't do that. The plane is still moving across the wood fibers with the same angle when a ramp is employed because the plane is still moving the same direction relative to its own axis.

[Brian Holcombe]

Pat, is it easier to start a cut or to continue a cut? Straight on, not skewed.

[Jim Koepke]

Skewing the plane effectively lowers the plane blade angle. The ramp doesn't do that. The plane is still moving across the wood fibers with the same angle when a ramp is employed because the plane is still moving the same direction relative to its own axis.

It is easier for me to visualize all of this than it is to describe, but here is my attempt.

If the work piece is slanted in relation to the path of the plane, the blade is still cutting in a straight path, the part of the blade doing the cutting either ascends or descends depending on the shooting board's construction. If the plane is on a descending path and the wood is held level there will be some skew or slicing effect, even though it may be small. A descending path for the plane or a rising bed for the work will both have some force pushing the work to the bed.

This is partly what was meant in my earlier post:


With a ramped board one would need to make sure the ramp is causing the plane to push down on the work and not lifting the work.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Pat, is it easier to start a cut or to continue a cut? Straight on, not skewed.

If we consider skewing the plane lowers the working angle of the blade, then from extrapolation of the difference of the jarring shocks to my shoulder delivered by an LA BU Jack as opposed to a 45º bed angle BD Jack, then it doesn't matter what comes out of a physics book, my shoulder says different.

Maybe some weight lifter in good shape won't notice, but my shoulder isn't in good shape. It notices. My woodworking revolves around not creating more pain than necessary.

jtk

[Trevor Goodwin]

I'm seeing some confusion here. A ramped board will not give you the advantage of a skewed blade, as the plane's blade is still at 90degrees to the direction it is travelling. The effective cutting angle stays the same.

The advantages I see are: 1 more even wear on the blade because the wood is skewed; 2 The blade does not contact the full width of the board all at once, so the is much less force required to start the cut, hence less jarring. The increase in force as you move through the piece is more even than if the shooting board were flat, so in my mind you are losing less energy absorbing the shock in your arm/body.

[Allan Speers]

There is no advantage to a ramped shooting board except at the very entry into the cut and again at the very exit of the cut. Everywhere else in the cut the plane blade is actually contacting more material due to the angle than it is in a perpendicular situation. There is no argument in this, it is purely physics and geometry. Take for example an end grain shooting situation with a 1/2 inch thick board and a ramp angle of 10 degrees. The effective width of cut due to the ramp will be about 0.51" as compared to the 0.50" for the perpendicular cut. You might feel better thinking you are gaining some advantage over nature but its a fallacy

This makes me wonder: Since the ramp lessens the initial impact, but has the disadvantage of putting more edge area in contact with the stock, perhaps a blade used specifically for such a shooting board could be ground to a more shallow angle? Say, 20 degrees instead of 25?

[Brian Holcombe]

Overthinking things here a bit.

Having used a #5 LAJ for shooting and a BD #7...I prefer the #7. Even bedded at 45 degrees a sharp blade produces a fine cut (my blades are 35 degrees in A2 steel).

[Prashun Patel]

Theoretical arguments notwithstanding, I almost always find cutting at a skew angle, even in the middle of a board or edge, easier than straight across. Even when paring with a chisel, I find the blade moves easier when the motion is at a slight skew, where permitting.

I'm sure I'm doing it wrong, and my physics doesn't match my perceptions, but I'm in need of a new shooting board and am going to ramp that baby. Thanks, Derek.

[Jim Koepke]

Overthinking things here a bit.

Having used a #5 LAJ for shooting and a BD #7...I prefer the #7. Even bedded at 45 degrees a sharp blade produces a fine cut (my blades are 35 degrees in A2 steel).

The over thinking bug bit me.

If both blades are sharpened with a 35º bevel, then the LAJ is just a hair steeper than the #7.

My LAJ has a 25º bevel. It leaves a slightly nicer cut on end grain than any of my 45º BD planes.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, I should have added, I have an O1 blade in the LAJ, it's about 30 degrees.

[Pat Barry]

I almost always find cutting at a skew angle, even in the middle of a board or edge, easier than straight across. Even when paring with a chisel, I find the blade moves easier when the motion is at a slight skew, where permitting.
Absoluely true. This is because a skewed blade is creating an effectively lower angle of entry for the edge into the workpiece. This is theory backed up by experimental data.

I'm in need of a new shooting board and am going to ramp that baby. Thanks, Derek.
Please report back on this because, I have mentioned previously, the only benefit you will see is at the immediate time of contact of the blade. This is not the same thing as skewing the blade. If you want to ramp something, then ramp the surface the plane travels downward. At least then gravity will be on your side and the planing will go easier.

By the way, what angle are you intending to put into this new shooting board Prashun?

What angles does everyone else use? Derek? Brian? Steve? Jim? This would be helpful information for those, like Prashun, who are considering making one of their own.

Note - maybe some genius here could create a poll for this - I was going to but was unable to do it.

[Derek Cohen]

By the way, what angle are you intending to put into this new shooting board Prashun?

What angles does everyone else use? Derek? Brian? Steve? Jim? This would be helpful information for those, like Prashun, who are considering making one of their own.

Angle? 5 degrees.

Pat, I experimented with all types of shooting boards and shooting planes for some years. There are numerous articles on my website. Just look down this Index page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/index.html

The bottom line is what I wrote earlier: all types of boards work with all types of planes. However, given that you want to extract the best performance, pair a skew bladed plane with a flat board and a straight bladed plane with a ramped board. Both these combinations reduce the impact of the plane entering the wood.

What do I use? Well I have a Stanley #52 shooting board, which is used primarily with a Veritas Shooting Plane (skew blade BU) or a LN #51 (skew blade BD).

Prior to this I used a Veritas LA Jack (straight blade, BU) on a ramped board. It still gets used at shows for demonstrations, but with a wooden strike block plane I built (37 degrees, BD, straight blade).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlockPlane_html_71a1e942.jpg


Derek, Thanks for the link back to your website. You certainly have tons and tons of great information there. I appreciate it and will save that as a link in my browser so I can refer to it frequently.
With regard to your ramped shooting board - if it works for you then its a good thing, but as I review the design, what strikes me is that as you push forward on the plane as pictured there should be some tendency of the plane to lift the work piece up off the ramp. This is because the angle, which you mentioned in your article at 4 degrees, would tend to create lift, just as an airplane wing would create lift due to its angle of attack with regard to the wind blowing across it. Substitute the wind blowing for the plane and imagine the workpiece catching the air from below. Maybe your tools are so sharp and your trimming is so slight with each pass that you don't notice it happening. Just curious if you have noticed that you need to push down relatively hard on the workpiece while using the ramped shooting board, of course if you are using a skewed plane it may counteract that lift (imagining the skew is such that it contacts the work on the top side of the blade first of course).