Chisels maybe the wrong subcategory?

[Patrick Walsh]

I am going to purchase my first set or sets of quality chisels.

I have my beaters and they have served me well for the most part but i am wanting something nicer.

I want dovetail, mortise and regular old bench chisels. I don't know if i need all of them though?

I actually just purchased a Felder FD250 slot mortiser. I know this is the hand tool section. I am considering mortise specific chisels as my first purchase to clean the round corners and make them square as i do not intend to use floating tenons but intend to make traditional tenons on my rails.

My first project with the new machine will be three exterior passage doors made of 8/4 solid teak.

My initial instinct tells me buy all Lei Nielsen. Then i look around and the only other thing i find is Blue Spruce. Well there are Japanese chisels but it looks those may be a bit rich for my blood at least for the time being. Although i have to admit i wish that not be the case it is for now.

Do people have suggestions or preferences. Specifically with regard to the Blue Spruce vrs. Lei Nielsen as those are the two brands i am looking at.

FYI i put this in the hand tool subtopic as i figured you all would be the best people to ask.

Thank you much,
Patrick

[Jim Koepke]

Patrick,

Everyone here will be happy to suggest how to spend your money.

Lee Valley has a great selection of chisels all the way from inexpensive to top dollar.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?cat=1&p=41504

I recently purchased a 1/4" Narex mortise chisel which seems a bargain for the price.

jtk

[Reinis Kanders]

Just make your tenons round using a rasp or file, much easier then squaring up the mortice. If you do want to cleanup the corners you do not need mortise chisels for that.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you are going to do the actual mortise cutting with a machine than what you need to square the corners is a bench chisel.

I would start off with long paring chisels and regular bench chisels, I prefer Japanese for both. You dont really need to spend a fortune, a basic set of koyamaichi in white 2 or blue 2 will do fine. If you are going to cut half-bling dovetails by hand than I would also get a fishtail chisel or two, but no need for a ton of sizes on those.

I have blue spruce, I've had and sold LN. Given the choice between only those two I would take Blue Spruce because I like the handles much better on BS.

Like most things, if you can get a chance to try this stuff out before buying, you may save yourself a great deal of effort and money spent. I know myself well enough to know I never stop where I start, but since there is no place to try things that usually means some turnover in personal stock. What I did for chisels was to buy a few of each brand until I landed on a few brands I really liked best and now I have a full set of one that I really like and will eventually have a full set of another.

[paul cottingham]

Narex are great all around, basic chisels. The new LV ones are excellent. I like the LN ones as well, but prefer the balance and weight of the LV.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you for the response. I am suddenly distracted by the Pat's game.

I did a quick google search after posting this "Lei Neilsen vrs. Blue Spruce and found some interesting banter.

The point of buying a chisel or two from each maker makes a ton of sense. On the other hand i am inclined to purchase full sets. Probably not nesisary and wasteful but it is my intuition.

What would peoples suggestions be for Japanese if money was no object. And also same question if money was a object?

[James Baker SD]

Similar to advice above, if all you want to do is to square corners of your machine cut mortises, then I would also consider corner chisels. I find them useful for such work. If you have small, but deep mortises, then paring chisels can get down to the bottom of a deep, narrow mortise.

[Patrick Walsh]

Im looking tomstart building a ful set of useful chisels of the quality i will keep for a long long time.

Im just about finished with my more costly tool purchases "machines". I still have a couple to go but i have what i need now to get what i want to do done. Its now time to out some energy and resources into smaller purchases namely hand tools.

So really im looking to start aquiring all the chisels, hand planes, sharpening stones so forth and so on.


Similar to advice above, if all you want to do is to square corners of your machine cut mortises, then I would also consider corner chisels. I find them useful for such work. If you have small, but deep mortises, then paring chisels can get down to the bottom of a deep, narrow mortise.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you for the response. I am suddenly distracted by the Pat's game.

I did a quick google search after posting this "Lei Neilsen vrs. Blue Spruce and found some interesting banter.

The point of buying a chisel or two from each maker makes a ton of sense. On the other hand i am inclined to purchase full sets. Probably not nesisary and wasteful but it is my intuition.

What would peoples suggestions be for Japanese if money was no object. And also same question if money was a object?

I wouldnt go hunting down a set of really wild Japanese chisels until you have some experience with them. Ouchi and Koyamaichi are great chisels, I would suggest you start there for a nice set of Japanese chisels. I think ouchi is going to be about $80/ea~ give or take, and they'll do well for you same as they do for many skilled carpenters/woodworkers.

No sense in spending for a 'money is no object' set until you are using natural stones and all of the other esoterica that comes along with it. The progression is worthwhile.

[Patrick Walsh]

I am semi familaur with the Ouchi but only from my best internet googling.

Mind you i am a carpenter by trade not woodworker. I am a woodwoker by hobby.

Point is i do understand how to properly sharpen a chisel and am capable. Granted i dont do it but i have and could. To date for my purposes a left over 12x12 piece of granite or marble flooring, a piece of 120,220,320 grit sandpaper has always sharpened my chisels as sharp as i need them for my purposes.

If you say the Ouchi are a worthwhile upgrade from my blue Irwins then i will take it step by step. Im not in a rush i just dont want to buy ten sets of semi expensive chisels before i hunker down and spend big $$$$$ on something special. Im just kinda a buy the best the first time type of guy.

Now with that said i am not about to purchase a 3-4K set at the moment. I am looking for something that is clearly a upgrade from my Irwins and random one offs i have tossing around my work tools.

What im after is a number of quality chisels intended for both specific and general tasks. At some point when i have pretty much finsished my shop purchases and i just gotta buy something i will buy the crazy stupid expensive chisel set.

For instance i have these doors i speak of to build. A number of louvered plantation type shutters, and a couple of cases that i want to join with half blind dovetails coupled with a million drawer boxes also dovtailed.

Anywho i appreciate the feedback. I will look into the Ouchi. I have read about them being the standard chisel of the Japanes tradesman. I. Not sire how true this is but if that be the case it sounded much like a set of Irwins hence i was leaning more toward something abit more pricy.







I wouldnt go hunting down a set of really wild Japanese chisels until you have some experience with them. Ouchi and Koyamaichi are great chisels, I would suggest you start there for a nice set of Japanese chisels. I think ouchi is going to be about $80/ea~ give or take, and they'll do well for you same as they do for many skilled carpenters/woodworkers.

No sense in spending for a 'money is no object' set until you are using natural stones and all of the other esoterica that comes along with it. The progression is worthwhile.

[Brian Holcombe]

That will probably do fine for general purpose, but for finer woodworking (more intricate work) you may find that you want a more refined edge.

I used the granite and sandpaper method for a bit but discarded it due to dubbing at the edges of the back that would take forever to work out in later stones. What I ended up at is using Atoma diamond plates from 140x to 1200x then progression to a medium stone like the chosera 3k and finally a finish stone (or two :) ) which in this case is a suita for most uses and an asagi for further refinement.

[keith wootton]

i was suprised by the size of the japanese chisels i ordered online. much shorter handles and also smaller diameter. i would suggest putting one in your hand before buying. keith

[ken hatch]

I am going to purchase my first set or sets of quality chisels.

I have my beaters and they have served me well for the most part but i am wanting something nicer.

I want dovetail, mortise and regular old bench chisels. I don't know if i need all of them though?

I actually just purchased a Felder FD250 slot mortiser. I know this is the hand tool section. I am considering mortise specific chisels as my first purchase to clean the round corners and make them square as i do not intend to use floating tenons but intend to make traditional tenons on my rails.

My first project with the new machine will be three exterior passage doors made of 8/4 solid teak.

My initial instinct tells me buy all Lei Nielsen. Then i look around and the only other thing i find is Blue Spruce. Well there are Japanese chisels but it looks those may be a bit rich for my blood at least for the time being. Although i have to admit i wish that not be the case it is for now.

Do people have suggestions or preferences. Specifically with regard to the Blue Spruce vrs. Lei Nielsen as those are the two brands i am looking at.

FYI i put this in the hand tool subtopic as i figured you all would be the best people to ask.

Thank you much,
Patrick

Patrick,

The trouble with Blue Spruce and LN is all their chisels (as far as I know) are A-2. Plain HC steel will hone to a finer edge and will be easier to hone. A-2 will hold an OK edge longer but will limit the stones you can use to sharpen.

Here is a quote from a David Savage email I received this morning. He is talking about the irons in block planes but it applies to any cutter: "...The planes we have to look at today have A2 blades which is a sadness. O1 steel would have given me a sharper edge except for something hand made inJapan...not that it isn’t good steel. A2. is great above 30 degrees, it hold a good edge but it is not “wicked sharp”. This I canjust about get with O.1. and it is NOWHERE NEAR as sharp as forged steel found in the best Japanese planes. A 2 is great for the amateur who doesn’t sharpen every hour of every day . This after all is the market. But I am looking for a professional tool for someone who doesn’t need “training wheels” to sharpen and can do it in a flash..."

ken

[Patrick Walsh]

So you are saying the steel japanese chisels and planes are made of can be sharpened much sharper than theirAmerican counterparts?

You are also saying the japanese steel is harder to sharpen but holds a sharp edge much longer.

Is this correct.

Just a tid bit with regard to handle size. I have a size large to x-large hand. Not bulky chubby hands but long strong big hands. Funny cuz i weigh 140lbs socking wet..




Patrick,

The trouble with Blue Spruce and LN is all their chisels (as far as I know) are A-2. Plain HC steel will hone to a finer edge and will be easier to hone. A-2 will hold an OK edge longer but will limit the stones you can use to sharpen.

Here is a quote from a David Savage email I received this morning. He is talking about the irons in block planes but it applies to any cutter: "...The planes we have to look at today have A2 blades which is a sadness. O1 steel would have given me a sharper edge except for something hand made inJapan...not that it isn’t good steel. A2. is great above 30 degrees, it hold a good edge but it is not “wicked sharp”. This I canjust about get with O.1. and it is NOWHERE NEAR as sharp as forged steel found in the best Japanese planes. A 2 is great for the amateur who doesn’t sharpen every hour of every day . This after all is the market. But I am looking for a professional tool for someone who doesn’t need “training wheels” to sharpen and can do it in a flash..."

ken

[Mike Cherry]

As someone who is on his way toward slipping down the Japanese tool slope, I got some popcorn in hand for this thread! Arigatou gozaimusu!

[Brian Holcombe]

:D

Patrick, Japanese chisels are easy to sharpen, especially if they are made of plain carbon steel (white 1 or 2) and frankly I find blue steel fairly easy to sharpen as well. There are a few forces in effect here which will drive the decision making.

I prefer to work plain carbon steel, it can make a very keen edge, it wears very evenly so you wont notice the cut quality falling apart rapidly. Plain carbon, even when made very hard, can sharpen up on natural stones. Natural stones are quite nice to use, both western and eastern varieties.

I dont think Japanese chisels are the only way, but they're certainly the way I prefer. I like my chisels to be very sharp and I touch them up regularly so I dont need a super wear resistant steel.

[ken hatch]

So you are saying the steel japanese chisels and planes are made of can be sharpened much sharper than theirAmerican counterparts?

You are also saying the japanese steel is harder to sharpen but holds a sharp edge much longer.

Is this correct.

Just a tid bit with regard to handle size. I have a size large to x-large hand. Not bulky chubby hands but long strong big hands. Funny cuz i weigh 140lbs socking wet..

Patrick,

Yes and no.

What I will say is HC steel will take a sharper edge than A-2. HC steels are Western O-1 and Japanese White Paper steel either #1 or #2. Good Japanese HC steel will take a sharper edge than O-1 and it can hold that edge longer.

Any of the HC steels, Japanese or Western will be easier to sharpen than A-2.

Forgive mistakes...inputting on a iPad at work.

ken

[Patrick Walsh]

For whatever reason it be i am drawn to the Japanese chisels.

At the moment i don't have a ton of $$$$$ to plunk down. Actually i have a Felder rep coming out firs thing tomorrow morning to service my brand new AD941 jointer planer. As if the machine did not cost enough i gotta plunk down a pretty chunk of change to deal with the tables being out of complainer.

I think for my upcoming door project i will just figure out what size bit I'm going to use to cut my mortise and purchase a Ouchi mortise chisel in that size or a couple close to it. One of the pros to going Japanese is the metric thing for me. Being the large majority of my machines are european and metric using Japanese chisels just makes sense to me. Its kinda funny because all day at work i use the imperial system then on the weekends and nights I'm mostly metric. Its good though as it teaches me to easily go back and forth when need be.

I also have a number of dovetailed drawers to make. I think again i will just buy a small set of the Ouchi dovetail chisels or the ones that correspond to the size dovetails i decide to use.

If i don't like the Japanese chisels then i can always sell them here and buy some LN'S and or BS's.....

where os the best place to get the Ouchi chisels. I did some nerding out last night and what i found was that the Ouchi can also be very expensive even in comparison to LN'S and BS'S.




:D

Patrick, Japanese chisels are easy to sharpen, especially if they are made of plain carbon steel (white 1 or 2) and frankly I find blue steel fairly easy to sharpen as well. There are a few forces in effect here which will drive the decision making.

I prefer to work plain carbon steel, it can make a very keen edge, it wears very evenly so you wont notice the cut quality falling apart rapidly. Plain carbon, even when made very hard, can sharpen up on natural stones. Natural stones are quite nice to use, both western and eastern varieties.

I dont think Japanese chisels are the only way, but they're certainly the way I prefer. I like my chisels to be very sharp and I touch them up regularly so I dont need a super wear resistant steel.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm wondering why you're leaning toward a mortise chisel for squaring the corners? If you plan to chop mortises by hand, then buy the mortise chisel, but with all of the wood removed I would simply use a heavy type of chisel called a Tataki nomi, which is a 'striking chisel', they're usually made longer than bench chisels.

If you are cutting half blind dovetails then you'll need a fishtail chisel in addition to thinned edge chisels. The fishtail chisels I prefer are called 'Ichou-gata' and the thinned edge chisels are called 'Shinogi-nomi'.

I've ordered Ouchi from Stu (toolsfromjapan), in my experience they take about 10 weeks.

[Tony Shea]

I had to chime in with my opinion because it seemed a bit one sided in here, even though I still lean a little to that one side.

I own a few different brand chisels and have to admit I absolutely love the feel, aesthetics, sharpness, etc of my Japanese chisels (one brand in particular). But I also absolutely LOVE my LN A2 bench chisels as well. I do not own or have never used a Blue Spruce to compare the LN's to but I can say that I will never part with my LN's and will be completing the set next month once I buy the 3/16" and 7/16" sizes. With Shapton Pro stones I feel like I can get an edge on these chisels that rivals the sharpness of any other steel I have in my arsenal and they really do keep it for a long time. The closest brand I own to compare these to are my LV PMV11 chisels and I still prefer the LN brand. I just like the feel, edge holding, durability of handles, ease of sharpening, and anything else I can think of for these wonderful tools. I am not sure what the issue with A2 steel here is but I personally don't have any issue with it at all. But I also use a hollow grind and free hand sharpen and maintain this hollow anytime it starts to get excessive. I just love them.

On the other hand I also love my Japanese chisels as well. I own a few different makers of Japanese chisels and one brand in particular really stands out in ease of sharpening, fit and finish, edge holding (which includes chipping in dense tropical woods), comfort, etc. I just can't recommend Chutaro Imai Fujihiro line of chisels enough. These chisels are absolutely my favorite chisels I own hands down. But keep in mind these are working chisels not trophy chisels so they are in no way ornate. Having said that the fit and finish of them is absolutely wonderful, especially when compared to any other brand/maker of Japaneses chisels I own. The only thing that I needed to do to these chisels is set the hoops and flatten the backs, which were extremely flat to begin with. I am not positive if they are White #1 or #2 but either way these things hold and take an edge better than any TOOL I own. Last I checked there were plenty of reviews for these chisels out there and may be more now.

So take that for what it's worth, all the other recommendations are very sound but I had to throw my input in as well. I also agree that you should def be looking at bench chisels before mortise chisels. You DO NOT need the bulky form of the mortise chisel to square up your mortises if 95% of the was is already removed by a router bit. A bench chisel is designed exactly for this purpose and should hold up perfectly well. Start off with some decent bench chisels and you will be well on your way.

[Bill Rhodus]

Lots of good advise with a variety of workable methods. Let me add another; if you are cleaning up end grain at the end of a mortice, this requires a chisel you would be willing to strike, although it would be a light blow in this instance. Consider getting the narex bench chisels and sharpen them to a less acute angle such as 30/32 degrees. These are quality chisels that are inexpensive, will allow you to focus more of your resources to purchase a high quality set of chisels that you can sharpen to a more acute angle such as 22/25 degrees that pares better and will allow you to have a set of chisels for those less delicate tasks at the bench such as opening paint cans.

[Jim Koepke]

have a set of chisels for those less delicate tasks at the bench such as opening paint cans.

And be sure to wear body armor, if you are ever foolish enough to do this, so as to protect yourself if a part of the chisel should chip off and take flight.

Otherwise we might read about you during the annual ritual of the Darwin Awards.

jtk

[Gary Herrmann]

I don't think I saw anyone mention Ray Iles. Traditional English style. I really like how the oval handles align in my hand. They're a good size and fit in my hand well. D2 steel is some good stuff as well.

It all boils down to preference. I have some LN mortise chisels, and prefer the Iles.

[bob blakeborough]

With all the comments on A2 not getting as sharp, let me ask... Has anyone not been able to do a specific job with A2 where you couldn't get your tool sharp enough to make you wish you had O1? Seriously? I have A2 steel chisels and never once have I though to myself that my chisels were not anything less than razor sharp. I get that people want the most they can get, but where does the line come up where the minute differences are realistically no longer perceivable in real life application vs just being in ones head?

[Brian Holcombe]

Bob,

They can be made plenty sharp for my purposes. My reasons for moving away from A2 are;

The wear bevel created on A2 is quite sturdy, I must always go down to 1000 grit to remove it entirely and work my way back up through to 13,000 grit sigma. All of those stones require time to soak and so the process of sharpening A2 is always very time consuming.

HC steel can be sharpened with ease on natural stones, natural stones (for the most part) do not require soaking. I can remove the wear rapidly and so I do not need to go back to 1000 grit in order to remove the wear, it can be done so on a suita or a recently stone that I just received called a Tsushima. I can also use a soft ark, ect, ect. Many options which make life much easier.

A2, in use, will wear unevenly, it tends to lose its keenness rapidly, but will still remain sharp enough to cut for a long period of time. In practical use I find HC steel to remain sharp enough to leave a quality surface for much longer than A2, it wears evenly and so it doesnt lose its keenness so quickly.

[Mike Holbrook]

Certainly there are lots of ways to build a chisel collection. Personally I like buying just 2-3 sizes of a particular chisel type in the exact sizes needed for a specific job. Most people do the majority of their work with a few specific sizes most of the time. Trying out different types of chisels for actual work will give the woodworker a much better idea of what works well for their individual tastes, hands, work....

I like to have two different chisel types 1) those designed to be struck with: metal, wood, composite hammer or mallet 2) chisels used more for paring by hand. I have a few of LV's PM-V11 chisels which can be struck but are more often used for paring. I have a single large Japanese paring chisel, but may add more. I like the Japanese hopped chisels for striking. Something about hitting those chisels with a Japanese hammer designed for the job just feels more precise. Another option for chisels that can take getting hit very well are the chisels made here in the US by Barr Specialty Tools.

I think it is also wise to figure out how you plan to sharpen your chisels before you buy. As evidenced by Brian's and other comments, the sharpening methods/stones/grinder...you use will work better or worse with different tools. Chisels, particularly those that are struck, can require a good deal of care. It is wise to have a good plan for making this part of using these tools as easy as possible.

[Terry Beadle]

I bought some Ray Isles chisels, English pattern, several years ago. They are a very good alternative to the much more expensive LN and LV and Blue Spruce.

That said, the set of Narex chisels I have work great, get very sharp and hold an edge. They are a great value for sure.

[Patrick Walsh]

I like the idea of hand sharpening.

But I'm thinking Tormek as i have limited shop time. I work on average 50hrs a week as a carpenter as is so i would rather spend time building than tuning my tools.

On the other hand i am a ruthless perfectionist so i don't know.

Is one quicker than the other, stones vrs machine..


Certainly there are lots of ways to build a chisel collection. Personally I like buying just 2-3 sizes of a particular chisel type in the exact sizes needed for a specific job. Most people do the majority of their work with a few specific sizes most of the time. Trying out different types of chisels for actual work will give the woodworker a much better idea of what works well for their individual tastes, hands, work....

I like to have two different chisel types 1) those designed to be struck with: metal, wood, composite hammer or mallet 2) chisels used more for paring by hand. I have a few of LV's PM-V11 chisels which can be struck but are more often used for paring. I have a single large Japanese paring chisel, but may add more. I like the Japanese hopped chisels for striking. Something about hitting those chisels with a Japanese hammer designed for the job just feels more precise. Another option for chisels that can take getting hit very well are the chisels made here in the US by Barr Specialty Tools.

I think it is also wise to figure out how you plan to sharpen your chisels before you buy. As evidenced by Brian's and other comments, the sharpening methods/stones/grinder...you use will work better or worse with different tools. Chisels, particularly those that are struck, can require a good deal of care. It is wise to have a good plan for making this part of using these tools as easy as possible.

[ken hatch]

I like the idea of hand sharpening.

But I'm thinking Tormek as i have limited shop time. I work on average 50hrs a week as a carpenter as is so i would rather spend time building than tuning my tools.

On the other hand i am a ruthless perfectionist so i don't know.

Is one quicker than the other, stones vrs machine..

Patrick,

The Tormek is a great machine, it will sharpen your tools to a good edge but, there is that damn "but" again, you can sharpen to a better working edge quicker by using good stones and doing it freehand. I've used my T-7 off and on for years to set the bevel when needed but I have replaced even that function with a CBN wheel that is much quicker.

There isn't a faster way to sharpen iron than setting up the edge freehand on one or two diamond stones followed by a medium and a hard natural stone (either oil or water) and a strop if needed. It is quick, with little maintenance and mess and the best part is you end up with a better working edge.

Watch the "for sale" area or PM me if you decide you want a Tormek, it is not a done deal but I've been thinking of moving mine out. It logically follows, I think there are better ways or I wouldn't be thinking of selling.

ken

[Patrick Walsh]

Hmmm,

That be the case what would the suggested lineup of stones be.

I may be interested in your Tormek. I do have to consider the mostpractical approach with regard to $$$$ at the moment as i just spent just under 20k on a jointer/planer and dust collector.

My guess is i could easily spend $6-700 on stones?




Patrick,

The Tormek is a great machine, it will sharpen your tools to a good edge but, there is that damn "but" again, you can sharpen to a better working edge quicker by using good stones and doing it freehand. I've used my T-7 off and on for years to set the bevel when needed but I have replaced even that function with a CBN wheel that is much quicker.

There isn't a faster way to sharpen iron than setting up the edge freehand on one or two diamond stones followed by a medium and a hard natural stone (either oil or water) and a strop if needed. It is quick, with little maintenance and mess and the best part is you end up with a better working edge.

Watch the "for sale" area or PM me if you decide you want a Tormek, it is not a done deal but I've been thinking of moving mine out. It logically follows, I think there are better ways or I wouldn't be thinking of selling.

ken

[Bryan Cramer]

I do want to mention the fact that the higher end chisels retain resale value provided they weren't abused or used up. I wasn't sure what I wanted and being a beginner at that time I went with the 5 piece Lie-Nielsen bench chisel set. They are a good all around chisel and have worked well with everything from dovetails to mortise squaring. I forget what angles I have them set, but I have some lower for paring. My Shapton glass stones have no problem sharpening them.

[ken hatch]

Hmmm,

That be the case what would the suggested lineup of stones be.

I may be interested in your Tormek. I do have to consider the mostpractical approach with regard to $$$$ at the moment as i just spent just under 20k on a jointer/planer and dust collector.

My guess is i could easily spend $6-700 on stones?

Patrick,

A set of three Eze-Lap diamond stones for the set up will run about $180 USD a set of Atoma's may be a little more, depending. Oil Stones for the finish will be the cheapest and the easiest to learn. A soft Ark and a Hard Black Ark from Dan's will be around $200 USD for the pair. Add in a Horse Butt strop from TFWW at $23 USD plus some "green stuff" from Veritas and for less than $500 USD you have as good a sharpening system as you can buy for use on HC steel tools. If you lean towards A-2 iron then things get a little messier.

Jnat stones can be more expensive but can/may add another level of sharpness, with Jnats it is just how high do you want to go. Brian should be able to fill you in on what a good lower cost set of Jnats will run.

ken

[David Peterson]

Patrick,
You've hit a rich vein with this group. Any chisel discussion around here is much more than a "sub-category". Heck, it could have its own forum!

- I've always sworn by my LN chisels. Their handles are a bit small for my taste but I like making my own anyway. That said, these are over 10 years old and I've never paid attention to types of steel. Maybe someone else can chime in - were they made of 0-1 back then? I had meant to add a 5/8" to this group recently but now realize that the steel may be different. If for no other reason, I have another handle pre-made and 7 makes a nice set.

-Learn to hand sharpen. By the time you've set up the Tormek you could have already touched up an edge on a stone and been back to work. Shaptons were my "ah-ha" moment but any stone, water or oil, can be just as efficient. The other great advantage of hand sharpening is that you don't need separate jigs or setups for bevel edge, mortise, skew or whatever edge your sharpening. I may not get exactly a 25 or 30 degree bevel but it's within a degree or two consistently.
325704

[Stanley Covington]

Point is I do understand how to properly sharpen a chisel and am capable. Granted I don't do it but I have and could. To date for my purposes a left over 12x12 piece of granite or marble flooring, a piece of 120,220,320 grit sandpaper has always sharpened my chisels as sharp as I need them for my purposes.

If 320 grit sandpaper is sharp and flat enough for you, then an expensive set of chisels would be a waste of money. Forget Lie-Nielson or any of the Japanese brands. The Japanese brands, for that matter, can be a lot of trouble to set up and maintain. Go instead with Narex. Good quality at a very reasonable price.

Avoid anything with a blade made in China.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

If you get into Japanese Natural stones, you can spend for performance or for performance and aesthetic. Aesthetic can become incredibly expensive, but you can get some really good performance out of a $200-$500~ finisher.

[Mike Holbrook]

Patrick,
Glad to hear you thinking about sharpening, in my humble opinion it is a very important part of using edged hand tools. I have a wide variety of options that I have tired over many years including: Japanese water stones by; King, Shapton & Sigma, diamond plates, Tormek, granite stone with sand paper, belt sander, natural stones, grinders ...(both with stones & CBN wheels)....

I think it is wise to have a grinder because properly used they can the fastest at removing steel, particularly if using a 80-180 CBN wheel. On the other hand some grinders, like the Tormek, are very slow if trying to remove large amounts of metal. In my experience even diamond plates are not very fast at doing things like cambering plane irons, hollow grinding...especially compared to the CBN wheels. It is easy to spend hours with stones and still not do the job a CBN wheel does in a few minuets. For me it was the big sharpening jobs like cambering blades that drove me nuts. No telling how many, many hours I "wasted" trying to do large jobs with stones by hand.

Now I do the major forming of bevels, in my case typically hollow grinds with the CBN wheels. It is so good to be able to get the job done in minuets instead of working for hours without making significant progress. The hard part of working so slow is you just have a hard time telling that you are polishing a surface that just isn't sharp. Now I get a decent edge/bevel with the CBN wheel and then only have to polish my edges with stones, I like my 2x8" Spyderco ceramic stones (about $70 ea on Amazon, a medium & fine or extra fine will do the job). They last indefinitely, may never need to be leveled and need no messy water or oil to work. There have been a number of our more experienced woodworkers who have started using these stones in the last year or so, because they are so easy to use. One can buy a good grinder, two CBN wheels and a couple or three Spydercos for about what a single Tormek with a jig or two costs. The CBN wheels and Spyderco stones provide what can be argued is a permanent, total solution as neither the CBN wheels or Spydercos are likely to wear out in an average woodworkers life time.

[steven c newman]

Afraid my sets of chisels MIGHT be a bit hard for you to acquire...
325706
Just a sample. There are ones by "Witherby" and a few that Stanley made for others. There are the ones I bought at Aldis as well. Other than the Aldi set, the rest are from yard sales and the like. The Skinny ones are mainly mortise chisels, including a Butcher or two. I have a decent set of both the tang and the Socket styles
325707
There is a set of yellow handled "beater" chisels for rougher work
325708
Just some beaters. mainly I go after the Vintage ones.

[David Eisenhauer]

The Tormek (or any other power grinder) will perform the "grinding" stage of sharpening, but you will still have to hand sharpen ("hone") to the final cutting edge. Once a chisel (or plane iron) is ground to the desired main bevel angle, hand honing to the final bevel does not take very long. When I set up to start intensive chisel work, I plop my sigma stones into their water troughs and start working on my project. If a chisel becomes dull as I work along, it does not take me long to freshen up the cutting edge by rubbing it on (usually) one stone. Periodically, on a non-chisel use work day or prior to starting a new project or phase of an on going project, I may have to drop back and re "grind" the chisels on the rougher stones (or a power grinder if that is what is preferred), but, unless I have chipped an edge, it does not take very long. Point is, the initial sharpening session, including flattening the back of the chisel, is the most time consuming unless the edge is chipped severely. I would buy one chisel in the size (maybe 1/4" or 6mm ?) that I will use most and try it out before I bought several. Steel choices aside, in my opinion, the handle length/size/shape is very important and, if you do not have a previous extensive chisel use in your past experience, you may not know what you really prefer at this time. Or, you can go through the buy/sell rotation on expensive chisel sets until you settle on what you prefer.

[Robert Engel]

Hmmm,
..... as i just spent just under 20k on a jointer/planer and dust collector.

plus looking to buy a Tormek.

And this guy is worried about dropping $800 on a set of Japanese chisels?

??? All I can say is 'Hmmmmmmm'.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have to wonder if posters who state that a Tormek or any other grinder will perform the "grinding" stage of sharpening, have actually tried grinding a hollow grind into a A2 BU plane blade with one? Because I have owned a Tormek for 15-20 years and tried grinding with it many times and I am here to say it isn't easy. I made posts about my frustrations for years before I found other posters with Tormek's suggesting that the slow speed, relatively fine stone that tends to load/glaze fairly easy combine to make it a better sharpening/polishing tool than a grinding tool. Recently I read more posts about experienced guys selling or replacing their Tormek than posts about people buying new ones.

I bought a single Japanese mortise chisel off ebay, which David Weaver helped me locate. When the chisel arrived it had a corner nocked off. I bought a DMT Dia-Flat 120-grit diamond plate, because of claims of how fast it worked. I worked the chisel blade on the brand new DMT plate for several days for long periods before I finally got the corner worked off and it still needs work. Recently I tend to use a much less expensive Eze-Lap 2x6" 400/1200 double sided or 600 (off Amazon) as I don't try to "grind" edges with diamond stones/plates. If a few strokes on a small diamond sharpener want restore a decent edge that my ceramic stones can polish to working grade, the tool goes back to the grinder. I am trying to decide whether or not to go ahead and fix the old 5/8" mortise chisel on the CBN wheel, which will leave a slight hollow grind, as some Japanese chisel fans suggest against hollow grinding these blades. I am inclined to follow Derek Cohen's lead and just do it.

I am very grateful to guys like Derek and David who eventually convinced me to try hollow grinding. Just a slight hollow grind makes hand sharpening simple and very fast in my experience. I have spent untold hours sharpening over many years and nothing I have tried works as fast or makes restoring a sharp edge as easy as hollow grinding on a grinder and simply retouching/polishing by hand with very hard ceramic stones. Nothing I have found in my history of woodworking has proven to make using edged tools as pleasurable as this improved way of sharpening. Yes, I am on a mission to save other guys new to woodworking with edged hand tools many, many long, frustrating hours trying to regrind and sharpen. I am not questioning whether or not others can make other systems work, I am sure they can. I would question whether or not "other" methods are as fast or easy over the long term.

[Jim Koepke]

I would question whether or not "other" methods are as fast or easy over the long term.

My acquisition of old tools has slowed down of late. Last year I found a cheap hand crank grinder that only gets used occasionally.

For blades in terrible condition there is a 4' hunk of granite in the shop with abrasive paper attached. This has been able to remove the worst nicks, rust spots and other detractors from old, abused tools. Working by hand it is possible to get the blades warm.

For normal folks, a grinder may have many advantages. For the rest of us, there is always another way to get where we want to go.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I like A2 chisels or the LV PM-V11 chisels. I find that plain carbon steel chisels (except for Japanese chisels) do not hold up well.

As far as sharpening, I use a WorkSharp with diamond plates to put the initial bevel of 25 degrees on the chisels and then put a secondary bevel by hand on Shapton stones. I have some Japanese chisels and treat them the same way. I can get several "touch-ups" on the stones before I have to re-establish the primary bevel.

I like the WorkSharp because it's a dry sharpening technique. A Tormek (which I've used in the past) is too messy - it gets water all over the place - and it's a very expensive tool when you include all the "extras". Here's (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/SharpeningChisels.htm)a tutorial on what I do.

As for preferences, I find the PM-V11 to be the best, both at getting a fine edge and holding that edge the longest. The Japanese chisels are next, the A2 are next and any plain carbon steel chisels are last. I have antique Swan and Witherby chisels as well as modern plain carbon steel chisels.

I teach hand cut dovetails and the students use my chisels so I do a lot of sharpening.

Mike

[I don't like the traditional handles on Japanese chisels so I've rehandled all my Japanese chisels with western style handles.]

[Some people say that carbon steel gets sharper but that's just subjective. I doubt if anyone has an objective test of sharpness. And I've never found that any of my chisels are not sharp (after sharpening, that is). If you do a good job of sharpening, the chisels will be quite serviceable, no matter what the steel. Then, you look at how long the edge lasts, and that's where carbon steel falls down.]