Question mounting vic(s)e

[Enda Ahern]

First of all, I want to mount the same way Paul Sellers does, with the back jaw proud of the bench rather than flush. I know this could warrant pages of discussion on its own, but it's the only way I've known since school, maybe it's more of a British thing, I don't even know.


http://i.imgur.com/U7Jg7gb.png
I wanted to mount the vic(s)e at the left edge of the bench so that when sawing the saw clears the bench. I'm not sure if I can as there isn't much space on that side (A). B is the second way I could mount it but I would rather not do it that way.


Would it be okay to mount it there (A). To allow mounting, a small bit of the table would have to be removed to slip the screw through, I have roughly marked it in this picture:

http://i.imgur.com/b0t95tl.png

It won't damage the table too much removing from there?

So the vice would be mounted with 4 lag bolts underneath.

The back jaw of the vice would only be against the bench towards the top of the jaw, where it would press against the bench top. Once the vice is firmly secured from underneath, would this matter?

Or do I need to add some type of spacer at the front to to press the whole of the vice back jaw up against?

Sorry, I am a beginner.

[Reinis Kanders]

If there is enough overhang then it should be ok in position A. Position B will be better for a stable bench though.

[Matt Day]

I didn't read the post, but grammatically it's vise, plural being vises. A vice is "wicked or immoral activity", like alcoholism or drug abuse.

[Enda Ahern]

I didn't read the post, but grammatically it's vise, plural being vises. A vice is "wicked or immoral activity", like alcoholism or drug abuse.

I put the s in brackets to avoid this, but it's spelled vice by most people over this side of the pond. I'm aware of the meaning of vice in the sense of immoral behaviour. Thanks anyway. Maybe I should have typed behavior. :)

http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss276/demographic01/Work/DSC01512.jpg

[Enda Ahern]

If there is enough overhang then it should be ok in position A. Position B will be better for a stable bench though.


I was worried about that alright. I wonder if it would make a huge difference.

[Roy Harding]

I'd go with position A - although I probably would have built a longer overhang to accommodate it. Reinis is right about the stability of the bench being better in position B, however. If the bench is going to have cabinets or drawers in it, thereby adding mass and structural strength to it, that would help with the stability issue.

As far as the spelling goes - our American friends began spelling things their own way back in 1776 - they no longer speak the Queen's English, and occasionally get confused when presented with it in all its' quirky glory.

[Enda Ahern]

Reinis is right about the stability of the bench being better in position B, however. If the bench is going to have cabinets or drawers in it, thereby adding mass and structural strength to it, that would help with the stability issue.

I didn't plan it too well in respect of the vice, it's a pity. It's pretty sturdy, 3 3/4" plywood and the top is extremely heavy, but might go with position B if it's safer to do so.

I have another question. Let's say I go for position B, and I need to remove material from the apron(?). I get a feeling that doing so might require me to cut a gap all the way to the edge, which I don't think I can do as this is where most of the structural strength comes from. Here's a quick doodle to show:

325275

Should I add another cross brace below it to allow me to do this? Or is there a way i could strengthen?

Sorry if they are silly questions but I try to be sure about whatever it is I have to do because I wouldn't have the skill to correct any major mistakes.

[Roy Harding]

I didn't plan it too well in respect of the vice, it's a pity. It's pretty sturdy, 3 3/4" plywood and the top is extremely heavy, but might go with position B if it's safer to do so.

I have another question. Let's say I go for position B, and I need to remove material from the apron(?). I get a feeling that doing so might require me to cut a gap all the way to the edge, which I don't think I can do as this is where most of the structural strength comes from. Here's a quick doodle to show:

325275

Should I add another cross brace below it to allow me to do this? Or is there a way i could strengthen?

Sorry if they are silly questions but I try to be sure about whatever it is I have to do because I wouldn't have the skill to correct any major mistakes.

Why not just add more lumber to the apron - making it thicker, and thereby being able to bury the body of the vice in it? I'm just blue skying here, I wouldn't mount the vice in the manner you're contemplating - but it's not my bench.

[Enda Ahern]

I wouldn't mount the vice in the manner you're contemplating - but it's not my bench.

Hi,

I'd be interested to know exactly how you would do it?

[Reinis Kanders]

If your bench is laminated 3 3/4" thick plywood then apron integrity is not that critical, basically apron is not required and you can use position A. I would add a stretcher for the front and back on the bottom though like in a Roubo type bench, about 4" from the bottom to prevent racking. and as a shelf for something heavy, especially if you end up planing stuff by hand.

[Roy Harding]

Hi,

I'd be interested to know exactly how you would do it?

Sure - in your original post, you mentioned that you wanted the back jaw proud of the bench, rather than flush. You then went on to mention that you hadn't contemplated the overhang required for the vice before building the bench. I like the back jaw of my vice buried in the apron, and I've considered the overhang required for the vice on all the benches (five so far) that I've built.

Of course, those were MY benches, built for MY needs - as I said in an earlier comment, we're not talking about my needs, so my "blue skying" doesn't really matter to you - it was merely an off the cuff idea for you to bury the body of the vice in the apron without compromising the strength of the rail.

[Enda Ahern]

If your bench is laminated 3 3/4" thick plywood then apron integrity is not that critical, basically apron is not required and you can use position A. I would add a stretcher for the front and back on the bottom though like in a Roubo type bench, about 4" from the bottom to prevent racking. and as a shelf for something heavy, especially if you end up planing stuff by hand.

Thanks.

The bench is the same as this one by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_xJD_aylYw

If I could do over I would do more of a Roubo style bench.

Do you mean across the outside of the bottom like the rail on top, or does it have to go between the legs? What would be the best way to fit them, given that I can't disassemble the bench?

http://i.imgur.com/UWduvzG.png

[glenn bradley]

Any chance of loosening the top and sliding it to the left to try to gain a little more overhang? Mattias has a lot of great ideas but, I think he intended this bench as more of a general work surface than a wood working bench. I watched the video and it looks like you could relocate the left leg as an alternative.

[Enda Ahern]

I think he intended this bench as more of a general work surface than a wood working bench.

Yes, sadly I realised this too late. In my lack of knowledge I figured a workbench is a workbench and any type will do the job. I now know better. Hopefully in the future I can do a better one, I think this one is a beginner bench to allow me to develop a bit of skill before trying again in a few years. I'm going from pretty much zero skill. One thing I wonder about though is when the time comes to upgrade, what to do with that plywood top, or how to get rid of it. It's a monster of a thing. Next time I am going to do a proper laminated top.



Any chance of loosening the top and sliding it to the left to try to gain a little more overhang?

I don't even have the top attached yet, I could definitely try that, I never thought of it because I thought it wouldn't look right unless it was symmetrical, but that's not really important.




relocate the left leg as an alternative.

Tell me more. Though the cross braces are glued and screwed to the legs.

This advice is invaluable, if only I had come here and asked before I settled on a bench to build.

[Reinis Kanders]

In your case outside would be probably easier and could carry more weight. I would just use two lagbolts.
If your top is well laminated and thicker than the one in video then you can probably put the vise in postion A and remove the apron part on that side of the leg entirely.
This is assuming you have a good lamination.


Thanks.

The bench is the same as this one by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_xJD_aylYw

If I could do over I would do more of a Roubo style bench.

Do you mean across the outside of the bottom like the rail on top, or does it have to go between the legs? What would be the best way to fit them, given that I can't disassemble the bench?

http://i.imgur.com/UWduvzG.png

[Andrew DiLorenzo]

Are you left handed? Many righties would mount the vise to the right side of the bench, and Paul Sellers seems to have his vise toward the center of the work top instead of to the side. For me the vise needs to go to the right side, but I say use some smaller clamps to temporarily position it and see how it looks to you. You can always reposition it. Either way, just make sure it is sturdy.

[ken masoumi]

I recently installed an older Record vise(#52) on my workbench and since I'm a lefty, I attached the vise on the left corner and in such a way that once installed, the vise jaws would be flush with the workbench top so I could use the adjustable front stop/dog. the easiest way for me was to cut a hole right under the workbench top, big enough to accommodate the vise, I then disassembled the back portion of the vise/rear jaw so I could install it easier by myself since it is a heavy saw and it would have been awkward for one person to hold the whole vise with one hand while attaching the lag bolts with the other.

The best part I like about the vise is where it's located, I like the vise being flush with the surface, it provides support for smaller projects ,cutting dovetails etc. but it does not interfere with larger projects or sheet goods.

[Enda Ahern]

Are you left handed? Many righties would mount the vise to the right side of the bench, and Paul Sellers seems to have his vise toward the center of the work top instead of to the side. For me the vise needs to go to the right side, but I say use some smaller clamps to temporarily position it and see how it looks to you. You can always reposition it. Either way, just make sure it is sturdy.

Hi, I am right-handed, I thought that it should go on the left for right-handed people. I'm only basing this on reading it a few times while researching. Whether this is true I don't know.


I recently installed an older Record vise(#52) on my workbench and since I'm a lefty, I attached the vise on the left corner and in such a way that once installed, the vise jaws would be flush with the workbench top so I could use the adjustable front stop/dog. the easiest way for me was to cut a hole right under the workbench top, big enough to accommodate the vise, I then disassembled the back portion of the vise/rear jaw so I could install it easier by myself since it is a heavy saw and it would have been awkward for one person to hold the whole vise with one hand while attaching the lag bolts with the other.

I was wanting to take apart mine to clean that end a bit more thoroughly, but it's closed with a split pin and I didn't want to tinker with it in case I couldn't get it back right again. This is what it looked like before I cleaned it up and dealt with rust:

http://i.imgur.com/1qwBXCD.jpg


cut a hole right under the workbench top, big enough to accommodate the vise

How did you cut the right sized hole, did you draw around the vice onto the wood or did you use some kind of template or something?

I saw this great tip for lifting the vice:

http://i.imgur.com/nA4SpQd.png



The best part I like about the vise is where it's located, I like the vise being flush with the surface, it provides support for smaller projects ,cutting dovetails etc. but it does not interfere with larger projects or sheet goods.

I definitely want the jaws flush with the top like yours. The thing I am doing which I don't think is too popular is having it proud of the face edge. This explains better than me:

https://paulsellers.com/2014/01/flush-vises/

[glenn bradley]

Tell me more. Though the cross braces are glued and screwed to the legs.

This advice is invaluable, if only I had come here and asked before I settled on a bench to build.

I was just noticing from the video of the build but, did not know you had glued the leg into place . . . Still, if you were so inclined you could cut the front left leg off, chop another mortise and build a new from leg. This would then require the left to right stretcher that has been discussed earlier in the thread unless you chose to relocate the left rear leg as well. I'm not trying to throw a lot of work at you, just looking for options or things that will trigger some alternative in your own mind ;-)


Hi, I am right-handed, I thought that it should go on the left for right-handed people.

I think you will find the majority of people agree. Actually, Andrew is the first person that I can recall stating that a right handed person would put the front vise on the left. That certainly doesn't make it wrong as there is not real right or wrong here.

I have read on some forum where a right handed hand-tool enthusiest wanted the vise on the right since he just let his spoil fall off once sawn through. I prefer to have my left hand available to catch the cut off which is to my left.

As stated, there is no "rule". Some woodworking benches sole purpose is to hold material to be milled (a-la Chris Schwartz). I use my bench for this and much more however, I do have other surfaces for more general activities.

[ken masoumi]

I was wanting to take apart mine to clean that end a bit more thoroughly, but it's closed with a split pin and I didn't want to tinker with it in case I couldn't get it back right again. This is what it looked like before I cleaned it up and dealt with rust:

If you are not planning on removing the rust, then maybe it is wiser to leave it whole rather than removing the back jaw but with mine I didn't have that rust issue to deal with,all I did was to remove the pin and the washer, remove the retaining plate,engage the quick release while pulling the back jaw, the whole thing came apart easily. if it was my vise I would remove the rust and clean the vise thoroughly before taking the next step.



How did you cut the right sized hole, did you draw around the vice onto the wood or did you use some kind of template or something?

I did exactly the way you described,drew a line with a marker using the vise as a template but the hole was slightly bigger to allow the vise to move freely back and forth.




I definitely want the jaws flush with the top like yours. The thing I am doing which I don't think is too popular is having it proud of the face edge.

I mounted the vise with the back jaw over the apron , didn't like the idea of having the front jaw flush with the apron, that 1.1/2" gap is in fact helpful when you are holding something really close to the rear jaw.

The link provided was excellent in explaining the reasoning behind it.
If there's anything else ,please let me know.

[Reinis Kanders]

Vise is usually to the left for right handed people because one wants to hand plane towards the vise. If you do not plan to handplane then it it becomes somewhat arbitrary.

[Enda Ahern]

In your case outside would be probably easier and could carry more weight. I would just use two lagbolts.

Just to clarify, because I often see lag bolt, lag screw, coach screw, carriage bolt, nut and bolt, used interchangeably.

Do you mean lag bolt to be the hex-headed one with a tapered end like a screw that sinks into the wood, or the one that goes all the way through both pieces and then you fasten with washer and nut on the other end.

If I place two stretchers should they be the same height as the two rails on the bottom between each pair of legs? It would be great if they didn't have to be, because otherwise if I fasten there I would be drilling into the area with dowels and screws. Here is a crude drawing:

http://i.imgur.com/ghOjZpT.png

If they could be fastened higher than the area with dowels then I could drill straight through but then would it look weird?

[Reinis Kanders]

Lag bolts do not have a nut so they do not go all the way through.
Do not overthink this and use whatever you have you can awlays undo it. Height is not that important, but lower than 4 inches would be annoying because your feet will hit it.

[Phil Mueller]

I've always believed that if you're planing and using the vise to hold the material against a dog, you want to plane away from the vise. This puts the stress on the dog not the vise. So for a right handed person a face vise would go on the left, a tail or end vise would go on the right, a leg vise with crochet would go on the left.

[Reinis Kanders]

You are right, vise is usually on the left for right handed person.
I plane usually in the vise or on the bench against the stop (dog or batten), rarely both at the same time.

Here is a nice picture.
http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/popular-mechanics/Things-To-Make-In-Home-Workshop/Kitchen-Table-Bench.html


I've always believed that if you're planing and using the vise to hold the material against a dog, you want to plane away from the vise. This puts the stress on the dog not the vise. So for a right handed person a face vise would go on the left, a tail or end vise would go on the right, a leg vise with crochet would go on the left.

[Enda Ahern]

Lag bolts do not have a nut so they do not go all the w as u through.
Do not overthink this and use whatever you have you can alays undo it. Height is not that important, but lower than 4 inches would be annoying because your feet will hit it.

Thanks



I've always believed that if you're planing and using the vise to hold the material against a dog, you want to plane away from the vise. This puts the stress on the dog not the vise. So for a right handed person a face vise would go on the left, a tail or end vise would go on the right, a leg vise with crochet would go on the left.

Thanks. So if the end vise goes on the right, you stand over the other side (opposite to front vice) of the bench while planing? I'm just trying to understand it in my head. I'm right-handed.

[Enda Ahern]

I think this is a great tip also, from The Workbench Design Book: The Art & Philosophy of Building Better Benches By Christopher Schwarz.


http://i.imgur.com/Cdt9LEK.png
http://i.imgur.com/wXHqmeV.png
http://i.imgur.com/Qb2EpwZ.png