Japanese Stool, Final? Version

[Alan Turner]

This is either the 4th or 5th Japanese Stool that I have made, trying to get the design right. I think I am there, but will still welcome suggestions, criticisms and comments.

The joinery of the seat to the legs is wedged, round, through tenon (1"), and this is the same joint that is on the stretchers (1/2"). All tenons are cut on the drill press with the table oriented vertically. I finally decided on this joinery as being sufficiently strong and efficient for multiples usage. Cutting square cornered tenons and mortises on the compound angles seemed more suited for a CNC router. Too time consuming for the price point I am trying to hit.

The wood was all scrap, and not exceptional in any way. The finish is honey amber
Ttranstint and one coat (so far) of Waterlox Original. There will be several more coats, and a light sheen will develop. I have never gone with honey amber on walnut before, and had planned to use VanDykes Crystals with a bit of red tint as a top coat on the walnut only, but my wife, who has a good eye for design and color, talked me out of it. I will be interested in the reactions of others to this point/color.

Maple and Walnut, East Indian Rosewood wedges (just because I have some scrap).

seat: 17" by 9", 23.5" T.

My thanks to all of the SMC’ers that offered constructive assistance in the design phase of this project. As you may recall, one plan is to make these in small production runs, for sale, esp. at a show, should I ever do one.

[Tom Sontag]

Hi Alan,

I haven't followed each iteration of this and like what you have come up with. Mostly.

With the legs flaring out at the top and bottom stress points, the stretchers curving inward at each leg looks a little off to me. Didn't you have the tenons flaring outward at the leg before? If that did not look good to you, then maybe an untapered stretcher would work. Maybe it is the roundness of the taper that puts me off.

Somehow the rounded taper going into squarish angular legs and squarish angular seat looks like a part from a different piece got thrown in. Just IMO.

[Alan Turner]

Tom,
The stretchers are a bit of a compromise. They are, and look, hand shaped (faceted) at the ends. If I leave them with corners, and esp. flared corners, them I am into cutting angled shoulders, which will need to be tight, and all 4 the legs and their angles from true 90 degrees is close, but not close enough for a tight tenon shoulder. I can do this, but the hand work becoes so oppressive that the price gets whacko if I expect to be paid for my time, and I do require that on a piece such as this.

[Stephen Stokes]

Nice job!

I have made three similar stools myself. That being said I have two recommendations.

1. Put a second stretcher on one side and space them according to different length legs. Said another way, if your stretcher is at say 10" off the floor put one at 8" and another at 14". This gives the sitter three options for foot resting height. It is especially useful if you have a 1st grader, 3rd grader, and a wife--each with different length legs--that sit on them each day! Trust me on this one. That being said, this may not be possible and still hit your price point.

<O:p
2. Ease the inside corners of the legs. They are painful to the calves if you sit through an entire meal. Again, I speak from experience.

[John Shuk]

I like it Alan. I think you are looking at a winner saleswise.
John

[Lee DeRaud]

The stretchers are a bit of a compromise. They are, and look, hand shaped (faceted) at the ends. If I leave them with corners, and esp. flared corners, them I am into cutting angled shoulders, which will need to be tight, and all 4 the legs and their angles from true 90 degrees is close, but not close enough for a tight tenon shoulder. I can do this, but the hand work becoes so oppressive that the price gets whacko if I expect to be paid for my time, and I do require that on a piece such as this.I hear what you're saying, but I wish you'd reconsider: my eyeballs keep asking me what those Shaker stretchers are doing on a Japanese stool.

Unless you're planning on making these stools in a bunch of different sizes, I think the investment in time/brainpower for a set of jigs to cut those joints efficiently would be well worth the trouble. (Easy for me to say...:p )

[Norman Hitt]

I like the stool, And the Placement of the stretchers, and I do understand amt of work/pricepoint, BUT........I have to admit though that both the round appearance of the stretchers combined with the long round taper to the tenons, just kinda turn me off in this design application.

Could you maybe just keep the stretchers full size to the legs and cut them flush with a jig, and then insert a round dowel into the stretcher ends to make a "Loose fit tenon" that could still be passed through the leg and wedged, without increasing the work time/price point too much?

[Alan Turner]

I think I did not explain my dilema clearly, having reread my earlier post. Here is the issue. The 4 legs are each at slightly different angles, in two planes. This is the result of inaccurate drilling, which I cannot avoid. The holes are close, but for a tight fitting shoulder off a jig, the angles need to be precisely the same. I have a new-to-me radial drill press, and this may solve the problem, but the new shop is not yet functional so I am not sure that is the case. If one has not tried to drill compound angle holes on a board, each identical to the 3 others, it may be hard to understand. There are two ways I know of to do it, and both are somewhat inaccurate. One is to tilt the table, and use a tapered jig or anglerd platform to hold the stock, thus achieving two angles. The other is to try to use the angled or tapered platform, oriented precisely to the center of the DP column. I have done both, but this was done using the second method. I have faced thius issue on about 40 hearth benches, 15 step stools, and now on 3 or 4 Japanese stools.

With the angles other than perfect, then jigging a shoulder cut on the stretcher is not possible.

As to the loose, through dowel idea, I considered this approach, but was concerned that the hole in the stretcher would weaken the stretcher were it 1/2", and would itself be too weak at 3/8" It needs to be wedged so the foot pressure does not cause rotation of the stretcher. Any glue joint at the intersection of the leg and stetcher is end grain, and hence not worth doing.

I do, however, with all of that said, agree that the style of the stretcher I cut is not ideal for an Asian influenced stool.

Maybe I will let this rest a bit and see if divine inspiration visits me. Or, better yet, maybe someone here will have a terrific idea.

[Mark Singer]

The tappered strechers don't work for me....I would try to keep them at the same level also

[Norman Hitt]

Alan, I just had a "Wild Inspiration", so take it for what it is, :D , but to get Consistantly angled holes in the seat, (pointed in the right direction), for the leg tenons, how about making an angled V jig with a base that references on two sides of a corner of the seat when it is laid flat on a table, and (drilled from the bottom side of the seat), and use a hand held drill with the bit guided by the angled V. I believe this would give you consistant angles in consistant directions as well on all 4 holes/corners. What You Think????? :confused:

[Alan Turner]

Norman,
Thanks, but to drill 6/4 stock with a 1" hand held drill isll not be apiece of cake. The hole has to be precise for a snug fit for the tenon. On this series of stools, I make the hole angle at 45* from the corners, and use a tapered platform (precisely made with wedges cut on the same setup on my TS tapering jig) to which are clamped blocks which set the 45* angle. I drill from the top down so that if there is any tearout, it is at the bottom.

Maybe the stretcher at full thickness (about 1" is what it comes out to) will accomodate a 1/2" dowel/through tenon, wedged, would work, and then after fitting, I could patten shape it a bit to get the sense of a flair at the ends.

Anyone want to buy a full run of rejects? I sense I will have a few more before this is spot on.

The millwork is more profitable, I must say.

[Norman Hitt]

Norman,


Anyone want to buy a full run of rejects? I sense I will have a few more before this is spot on.

The millwork is more profitable, I must say.

Yeah, Alan, but it's this kind of project that keeps the old MIND exercised and may prevent "Alzheimers/Oldtimers" or Severe "CRS". :D

[Tim Sproul]

As to the loose, through dowel idea, I considered this approach, but was concerned that the hole in the stretcher would weaken the stretcher were it 1/2", and would itself be too weak at 3/8" It needs to be wedged so the foot pressure does not cause rotation of the stretcher. Any glue joint at the intersection of the leg and stetcher is end grain, and hence not worth doing.


Alan,

Could you place the stretchers all on the same plane (as in geometric plane) as Mark suggests? Then...it might be possible to tie the stretchers together via something like a corner block that straddled the leg and could join 2 stretchers together. Then you could use something like Miller Dowels to join to the legs. Joining the stretchers into one assembly and then using through dowels to join that to the legs would make for a strong solution. I don't know how it would work out aesthetically.

[Ellen Benkin]

How much time does it take to make one and what is the magic price point that pays for materials and your time?

[Lee DeRaud]

I think I did not explain my dilema clearly, having reread my earlier post. Here is the issue. The 4 legs are each at slightly different angles, in two planes. This is the result of inaccurate drilling, which I cannot avoid. The holes are close, but for a tight fitting shoulder off a jig, the angles need to be precisely the same. I have a new-to-me radial drill press, and this may solve the problem, but the new shop is not yet functional so I am not sure that is the case. If one has not tried to drill compound angle holes on a board, each identical to the 3 others, it may be hard to understand.I've read this about six times, and I can't find a way to read it where it doesn't work out that the legs are "out of square" at the bottom. (I.e. the legs form a rectangle where they go into the seat, they splay in two planes at different angles, so where the legs hit the floor is no longer a rectangle.) Sounds like solving that problem is a lot more important than tweaking the stretcher design.

Or am I missing something (as usual)?

[Alan Turner]

Lee -- With perfect drilling, the legs form a rectangle both at the seat, and at the floor, albeit a different rectangle. But, the inside corner of each of the legs is not a 90* angle, because the leg is angled, so the shoulder on the stretcher, were it tenoned, would be a compound angle, which I can cut by hand, but it takes quite a bit to measure, mark, cut and fit all 8 of these. The marking is as difficult as the cutting. And, even though I try to be as careful as possible, while the legs at the seat are a perfect rectangle, the legs at the floor do not form a perfect rectangle.

Ellen -- My price point is not to exceed $600. That leave me less than 11 hours to do the work. Figure $100 for wood, finish, abrasives, and shop wear. I probalby can't do one in 11, but I hope to do 10 in less than 10 times 11. The setups on the tools takes a while, which is reduced on a per unit basis with a production run. I would like to bring these in at about $450, but the stretchers are the big issue, and the one I have not yet solved, per the consenus here at SMC (with which I am largely in agreement). The stool looks better in person than as I photographed it. Maybe when I have teh radial drill press up and running I can make better time. I mat try to figure a way to use it as a horizontal boring machine since it has a t-nut table, and I have a ton of dunnage.

Tim -- That is an idea, but I think it would be a bit heavy at the bottom, visually. I wanted to keep it looking somewhat lightweight. Plus, that is also a lot of fitting on each one with no 90's in play. The wedged tenon is really a necessity, as I see it. Strong, and light. Plus, a bit of visual interest. Miller dowels are out; I make my own dowels (not miller style) when I use them, which is not too often.

[Bob Winkler]

Alan, I'm really no expert at design and I hate to be negative, but I also don't like the stretchers at 2 different heights.

Maybe this would look terrible, but could the "side" stretchers be removed, and a "center" stretcher be installed connecting the front and back stretchers. The design would still be "light", but I don't know if strength would suffer too much. It might eliminate some of your labor.

Just a thought,
Bob

[Dan Forman]

Sorry Alan, no help to offer, understand your dilemma, but I really don't like the new rounded strectchers. Hope the new drill press gives you some other options.

Dan

[Alan Turner]

Bob,
I did that on version No. 3. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23331

I got some objections to this configuration. What do you think? Is that what you had in mind?

[Jim Becker]

Honestly dictates that after reflecting on this for a couple days, I also don't prefer the rounded stretchers, even though the hewn look is wonderful in itself. The roundness is counter to the very Japanese angular look that makes the whole stool so attractive to me. I do understand your dilemma about production time and trouble, however and like Dan, hope that the radial press will help regularize the angles so you can quickly do "square" shoulders with (quick) lose tenons for these elements.

[Bob Winkler]

Alan, sorry I missed that post. That IS what I had in mind, and I like that design. I think it looks wonderful.

[Dick Strauss]

Alan,
I know you've had lots of suggestions. Let me add one...

I like the "H" design of the leg support in chair #3. It goes better with your design. I think your final chair might look better than #3 or #4 if you also flared the ends of the "H" support to accentuate the curves. You could use the support curves to match the seat or mirror it depending on downward or upward curves. I don't know how much extra work would be involved since I've never done anything like it.

I hope this helps...Good Luck!!!!!!

[Bob Winkler]

I agree with Dick. If the front/rear stretchers are flared to match the seat flair, it would look awesome!! The center stretcher could be square.

Bob

[Lee DeRaud]

I agree with Dick. If the front/rear stretchers are flared to match the seat flair, it would look awesome!! The center stretcher could be square.Ding! We have a winnah!:D

Alan, you're gonna give us a good-sized discount on your "prototypes", right?:cool:

[Alan Turner]

Lee,
A discount? You bet. I figure I can make about anything if it is of wood, but the object here is to make a wood piece, attractive and saleable, which is also profitable. So, as go the protypes, a discount is in order.

So far, All I have "SOLD' is No. 2, and I will swap it for the correct version if the buyer wants. It was a charity auction, the wine was plentiful, so it sold for $600, which is too much.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hi Guys, coming in here a bit late, and I've not looked up the previous threads, but I have a question, why are you calling this stool a "Japanese" stool?

I'm just curious, as I live in Japan, and I've never seen anything remotely like this stool.

I'm not saying it is not nice, it is VERY nice, well done and very pleasing to the eye, I'm just curious about the name is all.

Cheers!

[Alan Turner]

Stu -- My thinking was that the eliptical curve of the legs, coupled with the dished seat, gave a feel to the piece that was Asian, and hence the name. But I have not traveled to Japan (or Asia at all), and so perhpas the neme I chose is only whimsical.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Stu -- My thinking was that the eliptical curve of the legs, coupled with the dished seat, gave a feel to the piece that was Asian, and hence the name. But I have not traveled to Japan (or Asia at all), and so perhpas the neme I chose is only whimsical.

Kind of like a "Tori" or gate of the Japanese Temple....?

http://www.daninjapan.com/1.18/hokoku_gates.jpg

Hey "Whimsical" is great in my books, like I said, I was just curious.

Nice looking stool!

Cheers!