New Type of Steel?

[Mike Henderson]

In addition to woodworking, I also do some cooking. I went to a cooking class yesterday and the chef was talking up the knives he has. They are made by VMatter (http://www.vmatter.com/) and he claimed that the knives held an edge longer than any knives he's ever used. He said that the metal was developed by the California Institute of Technology. I did some research on the web and didn't come up with a lot but I did find this (http://kitchenboy.net/blog/vmatter-amorphous-metal-chef-cutlery/).

Does anyone know anything about this steel? I'm interested because of the possible application of this steel to woodworking tools, especially chisels and plane blades.

Apparently the knives have been out for a while, maybe a year or two, and they're not that expensive when you consider exotic steel. I'll probably buy one of the knives to see how it holds up.

Mike

[Wade Lippman]

I gotta get me a $400 gouge!
And the diamond tool you probably need to sharpen it.

[David L Morse]

You can find the company that's bringing the CalTech developments to market at http://liquidmetal.com/

[Reinis Kanders]

Looks interesting. This will end sharpening debates for good since edge lasts 5x longer:) To be honest I have never lamented edge durability of my cheap kitchen knives and I cook every night for my family. People around me like sharper knives, but seem to be putting up with the dull ones as well.
It is good that technology marches on though, otherwise I would be using flint knifes:)

[John T Barker]

Interested by your post. I like to cook and many years ago bought myself a chef's knife for about $40 ($70.00 in todays dollar) and it has served me well for years. I was looking for a good quality knife that would last me for a long time, that's what I have gotten. This knife http://www.amazon.com/VMatter-Professional-Santoku-Knife-Black/dp/B00JKTK9K8 is $144. Personally I would say that's overpriced. Any decent store selling kitchen cutlery is selling very good knives for much less. I don't see why there is a need for extra sharpness and durability beyond what most master chefs use. Let me compare to woodworking. I worked in a shop that specialized in 18th century reproduction and restoration. Most of the major woodworking magazines have featured them. The craftsmen that I worked with were top grade. America's level of master craftsmen. They did fantastic work long before Lie Nielsen came out with hand planes selling for high prices and they did it using Stanley hand planes they bought at flea markets and tuned up as needed. Check youtube for guys like Chuck Bender and Mike Siemsen and you'll see guys that used some fairly average tools to do damn good work. The tools aren't going to make the end product better, the craftsmen will.

[Wade Lippman]

You can find the company that's bringing the CalTech developments to market at http://liquidmetal.com/

My only materials science course was 40 years ago, so I am a little vague on these things, but the website say the product has a rockwell hardness of 53, while powdered metal gouges claim a hardness of 67. Doesn't look like a step in the right direction.

[Mike Henderson]

My only materials science course was 40 years ago, so I am a little vague on these things, but the website say the product has a rockwell hardness of 53, while powdered metal gouges claim a hardness of 67. Doesn't look like a step in the right direction.
On Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011CTH0VE/ref=s9_hps_bw_g79_i3), they say that it's 70+. I'd expect that it would be hard if there long edge retention. Problem with hard steel is that it fractures. If they have some way to control the fracture, then the steel would work.

I ordered the one I pointed to in this posting - for $50 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011CTH0VE/ref=s9_hps_bw_g79_i3) - a blem. Figure I can risk that much.

Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

One of the ads features customer photos with the blade having broken bits off.

[Mike Henderson]

One of the ads features customer photos with the blade having broken bits off.

Yeah, I saw those pictures. The chef that gave the presentation to us said that he had used his knives for about 6 months and had cut through bone with them and the only damage I saw on the edge was some chipping of a part of the edge. I'd have sharpened the knife at that point but he was still using it and still happy with it.

The knife is kind of like a Japanese knife, with the hard steel in the middle and softer steel laminated to both sides.

Maybe those pictures were from early units. I'll learn more after I get mine.

Mike

[Greg R Bradley]

The knife is kind of like a Japanese knife, with the hard steel in the middle and softer steel laminated to both sides.
Mike
I have the Henkels Twin Cermax Triple layer Japanese steel. I've used them for more than 10 years and they work great.

http://www.amazon.com/J-Henckels-TWIN-Cermax-M66/dp/B000I1ZREU/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1447539330&sr=1-1&keywords=henckels+twin+cermax&pebp=1447539041174&perid=04TH5MVDAAC0CB9VKRES

[Reinis Kanders]

My main knife is $10 Sabatier knock off. Its been ok for about 15 years and I cook every day, vegetables stand no chance, actually butternut squash can give it a little fight:)

[Stan Calow]

I'm happy with my Ginsu's.

[Bill Adamsen]

The reviews on the VM are not all that compelling. To me, a Damascus steel knife or tool would be the ultimate ... but I have never actually "put my money where my mouth is." But thank you Mike fr bringing this to our attention ... love to learn about new ideas and see opportunities that might not have been obvious.

[Frederick Skelly]

The reviews on the VM are not all that compelling. To me, a Damascus steel knife or tool would be the ultimate ... but I have never actually "put my money where my mouth is."

Is real Damascus steel still made? Maybe I just crawled out from under a rock, but I didn't realize that Bill. Wow.

[Bill Orbine]

I haven't looked real closely at this new knife/metal............but is there a patent (or applied for) on this metal?

[Frederick Skelly]

I'll learn more after I get mine.

Please let us know what you learn Mike. LV claims PMV11 is about 63 in hardness. So if these knives are 70, that's a good improvement.
Fred

[Mike Henderson]

Is real Damascus steel still made? Maybe I just crawled out from under a rock, but I didn't realize that Bill. Wow.

I'm not sure they ever really figured out how the original Damascus steel was made. I did see an article a while back that made a good claim to have discovered the original "recipe".

The stuff sold as "Damascus" steel today is not the original Damascus steel. But modern steel is so much better than the old stuff that I'm not sure that if you had real Damascus" steel it would be an improvement over what you can get today.

Mike

[Gene Takae]

As a former chef that is a woodworker IMHO steel that is good for knives is not necessarily suited to woodworking applications due to the heat and impacts often created when using WW tools. Similar to the reason that carbide is not suited to all tools due to it being very hard but also brittle. Just my 2 cents.

[Frederick Skelly]

As a former chef that is a woodworker IMHO steel that is good for knives is not necessarily suited to woodworking applications due to the heat and impacts often created when using WW tools. Similar to the reason that carbide is not suited to all tools due to it being very hard but also brittle. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, Gene, that's a good point. The improvement over PMV11 that I mentioned earlier would be utterly meaningless, if you couldn't use it for woodworking.
Fred

[Larry Frank]

For any interested in Damascus Steel, a metallurgy professor, Dr. John Verhoeven, did extensive research on it. With the help of a swordsmith, they actually produced Damascus Steel and made a sword. They found that some of the impurities in the steel helped produce carbide bands which provide local high hardness and the patterns on the sword.

From what little I could find on this new knife, it sounds very brittle. It is always a competition between high hardness and toughness. The Japanese chisel with two layers of different steels is one approach. Another is our current tool steels which have small particles of high hardness carbide in a matrix of tougher steel.

[Bill Adamsen]

Like many of us I suspect, I am interested not just in wood but also steel and other metals. I attended a blacksmith "conference" not long ago where they demonstrated the folding and forming of steel for a knife blade. The process was identified as "Damascus" but I don't have enough knowledge to differentiate that from say the process to make a Samurai sword (reputed to have required 32 folds - 4 billion layers?). The interesting thing to me is the recent popularity of this process which has been driven at least in part by low-cost trip hammers and propane forges - and the aesthetics of the finished piece. There are lots of youtube videos on the process for those with more interest.

I did a quick search to find out the current price point and was shocked to see this ad (attached screenshot) on one of the popular knife selling web-sites. Quite remarkable. I'd suspect it was total junk except for the five star review.

I do have an ancient set of Japanese layered mortise chisels but interestingly they are not the set I typically reach for first. Could be that I find the sharpening problematic.

[Andy Compton]

Go big or go home: http://www.kramerknives.com/

[Bill Adamsen]

Wow. Exactly ... and I'm sure that's a price-point that reflects quality and demand.

[Bill White]

I'm stickin' with my Wustof Tridents. NOBODY touches them but me.
Bill

[roger wiegand]

My favorite "knife" continues to be the $3 carbon steel Chinese cleaver I bought when I was a grad student some 40 years ago. Takes less than 20 seconds to give it a wicked sharp edge using a fine diamond stone and it cuts anything and everything. Knives made of harder steels are much harder to sharpen and as a consequence are dull most of the time. I know good cooks who take their fancy knives off to be sharpened commercially once a year, meaning they're dull about 11-1/2 months of the year. I've been to a number of cooking demos in the last several years with very good chefs and more of them than not are using plain carbon steel knives sharpened whenever they need it, on a daily basis.

[Mike Henderson]

I received the knife and have been using it for a few weeks. It's sharp and seems to hold an edge very well. No issues at all so far.

As of now, I'd recommend it.

Mike

[This (http://www.amazon.com/VMatter-LiquidDiamond-Chefs-Knife-Black/dp/B011CTH0VE/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1450295139&sr=1-1&keywords=vmatter+knife)is the one I have. But it was only $50 when I bought it. Now it's $75.]

[Rich Engelhardt]

I know good cooks who take their fancy knives off to be sharpened commercially once a year, meaning they're dull about 11-1/2 months of the year.Not to drift too far astray of the OP - - but - - that's not really true.
The term "dull" is subjective. Most blades appear "dull" when the edge folds over on itself. By using a steel or a ceramic "steel", that turned over edge can be brought true again with just a few swipes.

A Spyderco Sharpmaker operates like that. Little to no metal is removed from a blade as it's brought back to "scary sharp" with just a few swipes on the ceramic rods.

I used to drag all the knives out and sit down at the kitchen table a couple times a year and sharpen them one by one.
A little over 15 years ago I bought a Sharpmaker and not one of my kitchen knives has been stoned in all those years. A few swipes on the Spyderco and they are "razor sharp".

[Mike Henderson]

Not to drift too far astray of the OP - - but - - that's not really true.
The term "dull" is subjective. Most blades appear "dull" when the edge folds over on itself. By using a steel or a ceramic "steel", that turned over edge can be brought true again with just a few swipes.

A Spyderco Sharpmaker operates like that. Little to no metal is removed from a blade as it's brought back to "scary sharp" with just a few swipes on the ceramic rods.

I used to drag all the knives out and sit down at the kitchen table a couple times a year and sharpen them one by one.
A little over 15 years ago I bought a Sharpmaker and not one of my kitchen knives has been stoned in all those years. A few swipes on the Spyderco and they are "razor sharp".
I'm with Roger on this one. When you use a knife, the edge does get bent over and can be straightened a limited number of times with a steel or ceramic rod. But eventually, that bent over edge is gone and what you have left is a rounded over "edge". At that point you have to remove some steel to get the edge back sharp. Also, sometimes you damage the edge with use, and that requires steel removal to get back to a smooth edge. Perhaps the Spyderco Sharpmaker does that - remove enough steel to get a sharp edge back again.

But my experience with ceramic sharpening devices is that they produce a rough edge, a sort of mini-serrated edge. It works but it's not the same as a smooth, sharp edge.

I sharpen my knives fairly often, but mostly on a honing wheel with compound, the same way I sharpen my carving tools. So I'm not removing much material but I am getting a sharp, smooth edge back.

I treat my knives the same way I treat my woodworking tools (chisels, plane blades, carving tools) - I touch up the edge fairly often, and when necessary, I re-establish the bevel.

Mike

[Ellen Benkin]

I have a Worksharp knife sharpener and I sharpen my Henckles and other kitchen knives about twice a year. Everyone who uses them comments on how sharp they are. That's good enough for me.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'll stick with what I learned about sharpening from Joe Talmadge.
Joe is the guy the professional blade smiths turn to when they have questions about sharpening and sharp edges.

His short treatise on it at Knife Art dot com is the definitive guide to a sharp edge.

[Mike Henderson]

Well, I've used the knife enough to see some wear on the edge. Since the steel is so hard, the edge fails by chipping - It can be seen as small serrations in the knife edge, especially in the area where you use the knife the most. And while I could see the chipping, the knife still worked fine.

I sharpened it today. I started on my diamond plates to cut the edge back to the divots, but I'm pretty sure that I could have used my coarse Shapton to do the same thing. After going through three diamond grits, I took the knife to my 8000 Shapton and then power honed it with green honing compound. It took a very nice, sharp edge.

I don't know if the chipping was due to the newness of the blade or if that's the way it will always be - but sharpening was no problem.

The knife takes a *very* sharp edge and holds it for a long time.

Mike

[Rich Engelhardt]

Interesting!

Can you compare it to a ceramic?

Somewhere along the way, I picked up a 3 pack of ceramic knives. They hold an edge forever. I've been using them for well over three years and they still slice a tomato cleanly & with no "sawing" or "starting the cut with the tip" required.

[Mike Henderson]

Sorry for being late getting back to you, Rich. I have a ceramic knife but it's a small one so it's hard to make a head-to-head comparison. The ceramic knife dulls in a similar way, by chipping of the edge. I can sharpen the ceramic knife with my diamond plates fairly easily.

But they do hold an edge for a very long time. I think the main objection to ceramic knives is that they break. I have a friend who bought a very expensive ceramic knife and broke it - don't remember how, maybe she dropped it.

My ceramic knife isn't as sharp as the Vmatter knife, but maybe that's because I never put the effort into getting it really sharp. It's sharp enough to do what I do with it so I never pushed it. I'll have to take it into the shop and see how keen an edge it will take.

Mike

[Rich Engelhardt]

I may have to try one of those.

So far, the ceramic ones I have have worked out ok. Two have broken tips - but - I think that's from getting banged around in the sink.

[Jim Becker]

I'm sorry I missed this thread originally as I'm also a "foodie" at home, cooking for my family four times a week when I'm not traveling on business. Knife sharpness has really become important for me as I've gotten farther into the cooking creativity. It's interesting that you experiences some slight chipping on those extra hard edges. I had that happen with one of my smaller Global knives, too. Drove me nuts because that's something beyond a simple "maintenance" sharpening exercise!

(I don't have any ceramic knives, but I do use ceramic blades for the clippers we use on our horses. They stay sharp substantially longer and don't get so hot from friction, either)

[Mike Henderson]

I'm sorry I missed this thread originally as I'm also a "foodie" at home, cooking for my family four times a week when I'm not traveling on business. Knife sharpness has really become important for me as I've gotten farther into the cooking creativity. It's interesting that you experiences some slight chipping on those extra hard edges. I had that happen with one of my smaller Global knives, too. Drove me nuts because that's something beyond a simple "maintenance" sharpening exercise!

(I don't have any ceramic knives, but I do use ceramic blades for the clippers we use on our horses. They stay sharp substantially longer and don't get so hot from friction, either)
The chipping was very small. I had to put glasses on to see it - and I was able to grind the chips out on a diamond plate pretty quickly. Also, the chips did not appear to degrade the use of the knife. It still cut very well.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

This is a follow up for Rich. I took my ceramic knife to the shop today and tried to sharpen it. I worked and worked on it but I never could get it to take a really keen edge. By keen, I mean the ability to shave hair on my arm.

I was able to sharpen the knife, and eliminate the chipping, but it wouldn't get really sharp. Maybe you need some special equipment to sharpen ceramic knives - or maybe there's some technique I don't know.

I was able to get a good edge on the Vmatter knife. It would easily shave hair on my arm.

Mike

[Rich Engelhardt]

Thanks Mike!

I don't have a diamond stone so when my ceramics get dull, they'll end up in that great void which is- -- the back of the knife drawer :D.

[Kent Adams]

Thanks for the follow up Mike. One of the things that concerns me is where did those chips end up? :eek:

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for the follow up Mike. One of the things that concerns me is where did those chips end up? :eek:

I'm not concerned about that. The chips are inert and things like that pass through our digestive system every day. You may have seen reports of people who eat glass as a trick. They grind up the glass (with their teeth) until it's basically sand and that sand just passes through their system with no ill effects. I suppose many people ingest some sand when they go to the beach. Same thing with those knife chips.

Mike