How much are nicks and scratches acceptable

[Aimee Coogan]

Hi All,

This is my first posting. I've designed a set of storytelling blocks, and after having a hard time finding anyone to manufacture and laser engrave the drawings, I've found a company that has been willing and able to do that. The blocks are hard maple. After adjusting, the images now look good. My problem is that the company owner is sensitive about answering questions. Can anyone help me with these?

If there's a nick or a chip in a block, is that a problem, or just to be expected?

What about 'flecking' (I think that's what it's called--sort of a snowy effect)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Aimee

[Mike Clarke]

Hi All,

This is my first posting. I've designed a set of storytelling blocks, and after having a hard time finding anyone to manufacture and laser engrave the drawings, I've found a company that has been willing and able to do that. The blocks are hard maple. After adjusting, the images now look good. My problem is that the company owner is sensitive about answering questions. Can anyone help me with these?

If there's a nick or a chip in a block, is that a problem, or just to be expected?

What about 'flecking' (I think that's what it's called--sort of a snowy effect)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Aimee

Kind of hard to say without seeing. You have at least 2 sides with end grain so that maybe what is going on.
I don't see how the company owner should sensitive about answering the questions pertaining to the job, given results or even the QC process.

Some things I have learned over the years:
I am hesitant to talk about a competitor. I don't control any of their business. I worry about mine and what I am in control of. So unless I know 100% all the factors involved I can't really speak on the situation.

Were your expectations understood and did you understand their promises 100%? Even then unexpected things can show up and the process needs to be changed to get your expectations met. This could include some guidelines as to what is a defect and what is acceptable. Ultimately you need to decide, but I think it is great you are attempting to have realistic expectations. They should at least work with you to get on the same level of meeting goals. My customers trust me and know I have their back. I only succeed if they do.

[Keith Winter]

Not sure what flecking is? Nicks and chips expectations are relative to the price paid. If you're paying $30 for a 1"x1" block then no Nicks would not be acceptable. If you're paying $1 Nicks and chips would be expected. Some photos of what you're doing plus the price paid and qty would help put it all into perspective so we could provide better advice. Information you've given so far is too limited to give accurate guidance I'm afraid.

[Dan Hintz]

I would be concerned about doing business with anyone who is unable to give me reasonable answers pertaining to his quality control or how his process will handle slight variations in the stock. There's a difference between keeping process secrets and making the entire customer interaction a black box... he appears to be leaning towards the latter, and that never works in the long run.

Shallow nicks/chips in the block (say 1/16" deep) should not cause any significant change in the quality of the engraving (other than you can see the nick). You will likely see similar variation simply based upon what wood you use (and your mention of flecks, I'm assuming you mean rays like in oak, points to such issues).

The following is a guess (but let's call it an educated guess based upon experience): You've had a hard time finding others because you're in a cost-sensitive market... you want to create a bunch of blocks with a lot of engraving for as inexpensive a price as possible. Engravers know how much time is involved and likely don't want to touch it for the price you're willing to pay. You found someone willing to accept a low profit margin because they are more of a hobby-based business (I'm also going to guess they're using Chinese machines... cheap, but relatively slow) and can trade their personal time for a minimal amount of profit. Those are the guys who are more skittish about sharing details of the process. But that's all just a guess...

[Aimee Coogan]

Kind of hard to say without seeing. You have at least 2 sides with end grain so that maybe what is going on.
I don't see how the company owner should sensitive about answering the questions pertaining to the job, given results or even the QC process.

Some things I have learned over the years:
I am hesitant to talk about a competitor. I don't control any of their business. I worry about mine and what I am in control of. So unless I know 100% all the factors involved I can't really speak on the situation.

Were your expectations understood and did you understand their promises 100%? Even then unexpected things can show up and the process needs to be changed to get your expectations met. This could include some guidelines as to what is a defect and what is acceptable. Ultimately you need to decide, but I think it is great you are attempting to have realistic expectations. They should at least work with you to get on the same level of meeting goals. My customers trust me and know I have their back. I only succeed if they do.


I really was just trying to ask the owner of the company what was acceptable. The first set he made had burn marks and the laser line was too dark. I sent him a couple of blocks made by a company locally (but out of my price range for regular business) and he made the adjustments nicely to match them. I thanked him and let him know that I was pleased with the result/the art.

As this company also makes their own alphabet blocks (which are laser engraved), they deal a lot with customers. Because of the detail in the art on mine, I recognize that they're going to be expensive to make. Locally, I've had 2 woodworkers make the blocks for me for $30 a set (rock maple, but also rounded edges, which I understand I actually don't need.) Then another company has laser engraved them, and that cost me $10 a block = $120. Both the blocks and the engraving = $150/set, with no profit to me.

I actually was thinking about launching a Kickstarter campaign to buy a laser engraver, and therefore bring the costs way down, when I found this man with a company that makes wooden toys, including blocks, and he's willing to make the blocks and laser engrave them for me at a much more reasonable cost. The blocks will still be expensive, but my plan is to sell them to schools mostly.

I can't tell if the company owner is just not a communicator, or if he doesn't want to be pinned down. I asked if the (what looks like pointillism or snow) spotting on some of the faces in the set (2) is something that he ever has customers complain about, and how he handles that overall. He told me that he thought I was referring to 'flecking' and that that happens when the saw is at a 90 degree angle in relation to the growth rings (I think this is what he said), and that it often was sought after. He didn't really respond to my question about customer complaints.

I wrote back to say that the wood itself is beautiful, and that my concern was whether when you are working with a laser engraved image (with a lot of detail in the art) it might be different (since it might be considered to interfere with the clarity of the image). In that case would those end pieces not be used? I really just wanted information… I also asked about nicks and scratches. He let me know that I was '' waaay too worried'' about this stuff--that his products are very high quality, and that the number of customer complaints were minimal. He also let me know that sometimes he stopped dealing with companies that were too picky….

Thanks again for your help.

Aimee

[Aimee Coogan]

Thank you, Keith.

Good point about the photos. I'll post some later since I've got to get to work soon. As far as price for the blocks goes, we're talking about $3- $4 per block, and they're 1.75 inch cubes.

Aimee

[Roy Sanders]

Aimee

are you able and willing to take clear pictures and post them? your question of this forum will get clearer answers if the problem is visible.
By now you know that most in this group will not knowingly put down another business, I don't think that is what you want either. That said if the picture prompts ideas for improvement you will get ideas.
OK, that is my nickel minus taxes and fees; two cents worth.

[Aimee Coogan]

Thank you for your reply, Dan.

Yes; I have concerns about why this business owner isn't more forthcoming, though I honestly think that he finds my questions more annoying than anything else. I appreciate your wording of 'slight variations in the stock' since asking about that seems very reasonable. I really don't want to offend, but I also am trying to start up a business and need to know what to expect.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Aimee

[Aimee Coogan]

Roy,

I will post pictures; thanks.

And no; I don't want to put down this man's business at all. I'm excited that he can make these blocks for a reasonable price.

Aimee

[Dave Sheldrake]

I actually was thinking about launching a Kickstarter campaign to buy a laser engraver, and therefore bring the costs way down, when I found this man with a company that makes wooden toys, including blocks, and he's willing to make the blocks and laser engrave them for me at a much more reasonable cost. The blocks will still be expensive, but my plan is to sell them to schools mostly.

CPSC is a nightmare to deal with on an every day basis.

Please don't think making toys is just a case of buying an engraver Aimee, it's a whole lot more.

[Bill George]

CPSC is a nightmare to deal with on an every day basis.

Please don't think making toys is just a case of buying an engraver Aimee, it's a whole lot more.

When I was selling my other laser engraver, the Chinese one.... I had one prospective buyer who had pet memorials made by a local company and was getting tired of paying too much! He wanted to purchase mine and starting doing his own. The exact words he used was "how hard can it be, you just put the material in and press the button!" I said if you only knew and suggested he keep using his local guy because that was one sale I did not need or want to make.
Aimee... There is a learning curve.

[Aimee Coogan]

[QUOTE=Dave Sheldrake;2490404]CPSC is a nightmare to deal with on an every day basis.

Please don't think making toys is just a case of buying an engraver Aimee, it's a whole lot more.[/QUOTE

Where does this come from? I never said anything of the kind...

[Aimee Coogan]

Yep; I get that there is a learning curve. I've 'made' 30 sets of blocks after someone else input the art and then spent time making adjustments. My part was only to flip blocks multiple times. I would guess that mechanical understanding of the engraver would be important, as would be years of experience in adjusting the beam itself. That's why I was relieved to decide I didn't want to try to go there and do the engraving on my own.

[Aimee Coogan]

Does anyone know why I might not be able to post photos? I keep getting the message that the upload failed.

Thanks.

[Bert Kemp]

probably to big reduce the size

[Dan Hintz]

CPSC is a nightmare to deal with on an every day basis.

Please don't think making toys is just a case of buying an engraver Aimee, it's a whole lot more.

I'm helping a former coworker with with the same... making sure there's no lead in the paint, making sure the labeling is correct, etc. Making kids toys has become a royal pain, and I feel for the small business trying to compete in that market legally. She's doing her best to cross the t's and dot the i's, though.



Aimee, the flecks could be the wood grain (Google "oak ray fleck" and see if the images match up with what you're seeing... nothing you can do about it other than specify how you want the wood cut to minimize it), or they could be a product of an improperly maintained laser (tickle set too high, resolvable with some system tweaking... or engraving images that look like they have a pure white background but don't, also resolvable).

I can't get any more specific without knowing size, detail level of engraving, etc., but $30 for a set of 12 blocks, especially if they're a typical 1-1.5" cube, seems high for production level. And at $120/set for engraving, I can't imagine much profit margin being available when a typical set of alphabet blocks goes for around $15/set. Are these somehow aimed at a high-level clientelle?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Where does this come from? I never said anything of the kind...

I was just mentioning that the inspection costs at the prices you have given will easily outstrip the sale of 20 sets of blocks Aimee.

For engraving wooden blocks I'd likely be looking more at a small but high speed router rather than a laser, lasers are great but at some jobs they plain suck

[Roy Sanders]

if your pic is too large it wont pull in. you may need to resample to get it below the max kbs

[Aimee Coogan]

Dan,

This manufacturer---new is not charging me the above. He's charging me between $3 and $4 per block for the block AND the laser engraving.

Those other amounts were the original costs--untenable, of course.

I'll try to repost the photos again today.

Thanks--you mentioned oak grain. Does that also apply to maple--which is what these blocks are?

The other nice thing about this manufacturer is he's already cleared by CPSC and will provide me with a certificate that says that to be so. i'll still look into getting my product tested, but my understanding is that with his following all of the proper reqs for his wooden blocks, and the fact that there are no dyes or inks, just the laser engraving, it shouldn't be too bad.

THanks for your thoughts.

Aimee

[Aimee Coogan]

Thanks, Roy. I'll work on making it smaller. My son's the computer guy and hopefully can help me with that.

AImee

[Art Mann]

I was just mentioning that the inspection costs at the prices you have given will easily outstrip the sale of 20 sets of blocks Aimee.

For engraving wooden blocks I'd likely be looking more at a small but high speed router rather than a laser, lasers are great but at some jobs they plain suck

I own a precision CNC router like Dave mentioned. I can't say whether it would be a good machine for this product or not without more information but what Dave said is very true. There are some projects for which a CNC router is a much better tool. If I were you, I would at least investigate this alternative if you haven't already.

[Dave Sheldrake]

The other nice thing about this manufacturer is he's already cleared by CPSC and will provide me with a certificate that says that to be so. i'll still look into getting my product tested, but my understanding is that with his following all of the proper reqs for his wooden blocks, and the fact that there are no dyes or inks, just the laser engraving, it shouldn't be too bad.

HI Aimee, it's not the manufacturer that requires clearance, it's the product.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Business--Manufacturing/Business-Education/childrens-products/

The individual / company / organisation placing the item onto the market for retail purpose is the person / company of note that is required to have the testing done.

[David Somers]

Aimee,

For what it is worth, I recently made a set of alphabet blocks with 2 graphic images per block, 2 letters in caps and 2 letters in lower case. I made my own blocks from poplar as tests, then the final from Maple. The Maple cut much better. I only did one set so far. It was a gift for 1 year old niece. I made the blocks first. Then I cut them. Finding a good way to lock them in place on the CNC was difficult and a number of times I had block break loose, which destroyed a number of blocks in the process. I need to be more creative in my work hold techniques if I want to do more of these on the CNC. It was pretty labor intensive, even with the better cutting that Maple gave me. They came out great, but I see that I need fine tune the process a bunch if I wanted to make more of these.

Lasering them once the blocks were cut and sanded would have been a piece of cake. Though I really preferred the look and feel of the CNC cut blocks.

I was not cutting aggressively by any means. I rough cut with an flat bottom 1/8" end mill and then finish cut with a 1/16 tapered ball nose for what that is worth.

Dave

[Aimee Coogan]

Dave,

Your experience is interesting. It sounds as though the look of the final product with the router is nice, but that it's not easy to get there, even for someone like you, who knows wood and woodworking.

I imagine the blocks are beautiful!

Thanks for the feedback.

Aimee

[Aimee Coogan]

Thanks, Art. I don't have the skills to do any of that; I'm a designer and want to delegate and pay for someone else to do the creating. I admire those who can do this, but that's not me. Which doesn't mean I couldn't hire someone else to use a router and make the blocks and designs with it. I'll keep that in mind as something to look into.

Aimee

[Aimee Coogan]

Ok Dave. I've got to look into that anyway. I think it shouldn't be too bad in this case, since the company I'm dealing with regularly complies with CPSC, makes wooden toys and blocks and has been in business for some time. Apparently they give certificates of adhering to laws/reqs of CPSC to other companies for whom they manufacture products. But I certainly have to check on that, to be sure.

Aimee

[Aimee Coogan]

Thanks, everyone. Dan was able to look at the photos of the blocks and determine that what I'm seeing is ray flecking. That was really helpful to know, that and that maybe I can have the laser operator vary the darkness of the lines within one drawing on one face. So I will approach the operator about some fine tuning.

I appreciate all of your feedback!

Aimee