Owners of Felder/Hammer/Minimax J/P Combos...Help Please

[Steve Catts]

Hi all,
I am in the final throws of making a commitment for big shop upgrades. I will be able to spend what I need to to do it right. For Owners of jointer/planer combos (A3-31 or 41, FS30, AD531, AD741), I would love to know of your motivations for making these machines a part of your shop. Quality of the Euro Machines? Space efficiency? In general, if a craftsman wants the use of 12-16" jointing capacity (at a given price point of $4-7k), the choice is a European combo machine or separates (12" parallelogram jointer and 15" planer) from an imported source (Grizzly or Jet I suppose). With the separates comes convenience by not having to make conversions but some step down in quality and the typical requirement to put some time into finishing the manufacturing on your own.


For those who have made this decision, if space were no issue for you, would you still place higher value on the combination machine you own (which speaks highly of your appreciation of the machine quality) or would you opt for the greater convenience of separates although giving up on quality and engineering of the machine?

Thanks for your inputs!
Steve

[Patrick Harper]

If space were no issue, I'd probably go with old iron separates. However, I do love my FS30 so far. My only complaint is the lack of a quality integrated mobile base option.

[Erik Loza]

I'm a Minimax rep, so you won't get an un-biased answer from me, but I will tell you that I have a great number of customers with Minimax jointer/planers who have had them for 10+ years, that run just as well today as when they first bought them. I assume you don't want to spend your money twice, so I always encourage prospective owners to ask the the various companies they are comparing to give them some referrals for folks who have owned their machines a long time. Not one or two years. That's still the honeymoon phase. You're going to be married to it, for better or for worse. Five years, ten years. That narrows the field pretty quickly. Regarding usability, here's a Minimax FS30 owner who explains his decision making. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM_oDGmOb0g

[Erik Loza]

If space were no issue, I'd probably go with old iron separates. However, I do love my FS30 so far. My only complaint is the lack of a quality integrated mobile base option.

Patrick, did we discuss the Zambus/Great Lakes casters for your FS30? Don't remember. I have many owners using those, now.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Euro separates are available too. I like old iron jointers but also like the Euro planers. I've got the room and prefer multiple machines so run a mix of old iron and Euro. Dave

[Prashun Patel]

I bought my Hammer A3-31 for large capacity in a small footprint.

A 12" planer isn't much to write home about, but a 12" JOINTER is.

Also, if you upgrade to a spiral cutter head, it's 2 for the price of one.

Switchover gets easier with time. The biggest thing is cranking the table up and down. It modestly affects your order of operations; I tend to gang planing and jointing ops more than I did before, but I now feel more organized about my shop time to be honest.

Flipping the hose back and forth can be a mild nuissance, but I suspect you (like I) will figure out a suitable way to handle that too.

I cannot speak to the quality of the non-Euro machines, but I can say that this combo produces cleaner, squarer parts with less effort than I'm used to. It's a HUGE time saver.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steve, I'm on my second Hammer A3-31, and love it.

I went from traditional old iron, I had a General 8 inch jointer and 13? inch General planer (The made in Canada machines).

I have a small shop in a townhouse basement so the change to a 12" J/P cleared up a lot of floor space as well as giving me a 12 inch jointer.

Mine has the standard disposable knife system which was a revelation compared to the old machines. The cutterhead has very low knife projection (it's MAN rated for low incidence of kickback) and produces a far nicer cut than any conventional straight knife machine I've used.

It's great to have a 12 inch jointer, and since I never plane glued up assemblies, they match perfectly in capacity. The digital height gauge on the planer is great, set it xx.x mm and out comes the exact size you asked for, with zero snipe.

I was so impressed that several years later I sold my General cabinet saw and shaper and bought a combination saw/shaper. Another great leap forward in capacity, capabilities, function and performance, along with more floor space savings.

If I had the space I would go for Euro separates, definitely not old iron as I really like the capacity, capabilities, functionality and safety improvements on the newer machines.

Sam often posts here, he's a Mini Max rep, very knowledgeable, he may have some good points to add. I looked at Mini Max when I bought my machines however their dealer support was so bad in Canada at that time that I bought another brand. They do make good machines however.

Regards, Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

"I'm on my second Hammer A3-31..."

Huh? What happened to the 1st, Rod?

[Steve Catts]

Hi Steve, I'm on my second Hammer A3-31, and love it.

I went from traditional old iron, I had a General 8 inch jointer and 13? inch General planer (The made in Canada machines).

I have a small shop in a townhouse basement so the change to a 12" J/P cleared up a lot of floor space as well as giving me a 12 inch jointer.

Mine has the standard disposable knife system which was a revelation compared to the old machines. The cutterhead has very low knife projection (it's MAN rated for low incidence of kickback) and produces a far nicer cut than any conventional straight knife machine I've used.

It's great to have a 12 inch jointer, and since I never plane glued up assemblies, they match perfectly in capacity. The digital height gauge on the planer is great, set it xx.x mm and out comes the exact size you asked for, with zero snipe.

I was so impressed that several years later I sold my General cabinet saw and shaper and bought a combination saw/shaper. Another great leap forward in capacity, capabilities, function and performance, along with more floor space savings.

If I had the space I would go for Euro separates, definitely not old iron as I really like the capacity, capabilities, functionality and safety improvements on the newer machines.

Sam often posts here, he's a Mini Max rep, very knowledgeable, he may have some good points to add. I looked at Mini Max when I bought my machines however their dealer support was so bad in Canada at that time that I bought another brand. They do make good machines however.

Regards, Rod.

Rod, Thanks. I am looking at the A3-31 (leaning heavily) and the FS30. As you know, the euro machines do not have the long beds that most north american jointers have. Considering euro separates, have you felt any pain over the inherently shorter tables on your A3-31s? Have you used the Hammer extensions and do they provide adequate stability and support?

Steve

[Bill Adamsen]

I have a 2003 Knapp machine (410mm/16inch). I believe it to be roughly comparable to today's offerings considered Euro Combination Machines. The Knapp was available with the Leitz Wigo blades which is what I have. Wigo are functionally similar to but not interchangeable with Tersa. Tersa is available - or comes standard - on many of today's Euro machines. Excellent availability, easy and low cost replacement, plus the selection of a variety of materials (HSS, Carbide) makes that a good choice. Many folks here love and speak glowingly of their Byrd or other brand spiral cutter-heads, so that's another alternative. I have learned to work with the combined functionality by modifying process.

The machine works great. It holds its adjustments well, and is relative easy to adjust for optimum jointing and planing (making tables co-planar) should it go out. Dust collection works great, and I used quick disconnect couplers (Spiral Manufacturing) on the pipe to make changes as quick as possible. As Prashun said, no matter the size of your machine there are times you want it either bigger or smaller. Mine is a 3-phase machine but I suspect they are available as single-phase also. Noise - my machine, probably due to the "straight knives," really howls when dust collection is on.

One feature I really like is the digital height adjustment on the planer. Used with a digital vernier, it makes getting really close repeatability possible. That's important when you have a machine that needs to be changed back and forth.

[Rod Sheridan]

"I'm on my second Hammer A3-31..."

Huh? What happened to the 1st, Rod?



Hi Prashun, I gave it to my eldest brother as a thank you gift.

When my mother died, he was the executor of the estate and refused the customary fee for that function which would have been in the $12K range.

regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, Thanks. I am looking at the A3-31 (leaning heavily) and the FS30. As you know, the euro machines do not have the long beds that most north american jointers have. Considering euro separates, have you felt any pain over the inherently shorter tables on your A3-31s? Have you used the Hammer extensions and do they provide adequate stability and support?

Steve

Hi Steve, the longest piece I've jointed is about 7 feet long, absolutely no issues.

I have an outfeed extension always mounted on the planer as the feed rate is high. (If I put a small piece in the planer it sometimes fell in the cat litter before I could grab it, I have a small shop).

I also have 2 other extensions that I can mount on the jointer, or the saw/shaper. I rarely use the extensions on the jointer however if I had an 8 foot 2 X 12 I would put them on.

A word of advice, buy the metric height gauge for the planer, it's 2.0mm per revolution which is a smart range. Half turn is 1mm, quarter turn is 0.5mm. Makes life so much easier, as does designing your furniture in metric.

I make boards 20mm instead of 3/4", or 50mm legs instead of 2 inch, very easy to design with, and a lot better than the 0.079" per revolution Imperial gauge.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Catts]

Hi Steve, the longest piece I've jointed is about 7 feet long, absolutely no issues.

I have an outfeed extension always mounted on the planer as the feed rate is high. (If I put a small piece in the planer it sometimes fell in the cat litter before I could grab it, I have a small shop).

I also have 2 other extensions that I can mount on the jointer, or the saw/shaper. I rarely use the extensions on the jointer however if I had an 8 foot 2 X 12 I would put them on.

A word of advice, buy the metric height gauge for the planer, it's 2.0mm per revolution which is a smart range. Half turn is 1mm, quarter turn is 0.5mm. Makes life so much easier, as does designing your furniture in metric.

I make boards 20mm instead of 3/4", or 50mm legs instead of 2 inch, very easy to design with, and a lot better than the 0.079" per revolution Imperial gauge.

Regards, Rod.
Great inputs, thanks rod.

[Warren Lake]

Wow Rod

that was very nice of you. Perhaps you would talk to my sisters, actually I dont feel good even joking about that however very nice you did that.

A digital readout would be nice, for those of us that dont have that and want to repeat a setting put a pre planed board in and shut the feed roller off. On the SCM Invincible there is a stop start for the feed roller. wind your table up on a pre planed board and you can hear when the knives are just touching run that board through and its ready for your new stuff to match the already planed material.

[Peter Kelly]

For those who have made this decision, if space were no issue for you, would you still place higher value on the combination machine you own (which speaks highly of your appreciation of the machine quality) or would you opt for the greater convenience of separates although giving up on quality and engineering of the machine?Since my shop is a little on the small side, I went with a FS41 Elite J/P from MiniMax. Had I the space, I'd have gone with new separates from the same company.

Great machine, no regrets at all.

[keith wootton]

i have a used ad741 in a 19 X19 shop. saves me the space of one machine ( it takes up the space vacated by 20" planer, which was a step down from a 15" planer) being able to joint 16" boards was the big factor. i use a lot of lumber i mill with a chain saw, and it comes out so flat it wants to stay stuck to outfeed table. not having to rip boards in half, joint, and glue back together has been nice, but what i have come to love the most is the electric height adjust and digital readout on planer. going back and hitting exactly the same height is fantastic. boards also measure within a couple of thousands anywhere on board, something that never happened on 20" powermatic. as a hobby woodworker, i would have a hard time justifying cost of two machines, if i had space and money, i think i would have new ktm 690 r (motorcycle)! keith

[Rod Sheridan]

i have a used ad741 in a 19 X19 shop. saves me the space of one machine ( it takes up the space vacated by 20" planer, which was a step down from a 15" planer) being able to joint 16" boards was the big factor. i use a lot of lumber i mill with a chain saw, and it comes out so flat it wants to stay stuck to outfeed table. not having to rip boards in half, joint, and glue back together has been nice, but what i have come to love the most is the electric height adjust and digital readout on planer. going back and hitting exactly the same height is fantastic. boards also measure within a couple of thousands anywhere on board, something that never happened on 20" powermatic. as a hobby woodworker, i would have a hard time justifying cost of two machines, if i had space and money, i think i would have new ktm 690 r (motorcycle)! keith

KTM 690..............Nice machine, I have a BMW F700GS...............Rod.

[Michael Koons]

I recently went through the exact same process. I upgraded from a PM 8" jointer and lunchbox planer to a combo machine. I have a 2000 sf shop so space was not and issue. I went with the combo because I could max out size and quality for the price. I went as big as I could go so I would not have to upgrade again, so I went with the 16" combo machine. Once I decided on the size, then I just had to take certain factors into account that may or may not apply to your situation. If money was absolutely no object, I may have gone with the standalone Martin machines but they were out of my price range. I ended up getting the Felder AD941. I am sure I would have been just as happy with the Minimax FS41 Elite S.

My factors were availability of machines, electronic table height adjustment or hand crank for the planer, Tersa blades or helical cutter head, 3 phase or single phase power. I had an added dimension of living close to a Felder facility so for me, that factored in as well. I've found the buyer can only make these decisions on their own once they weigh the pros and cons of each. For me, I wanted the electric lift, the helical cutter head and the local service. Having the local Felder people help me move it into my basement was a huge plus.

[John TenEyck]

I've had a 10" Inca J/P for over 25 years. I always wondered how anyone made due with a smaller jointer. The short table were never much of a problem and I often jointed boards 6 - 8' long on it w/o undue problem. About 7 years ago I bought a Foley-Belsaw planer/molder to run molding, but the planer was such a beast that I left the Inca in jointer mode and planed everything through the FB. As easy as the Inca was to convert back and forth it's just easier with two machines. Fast forward to a month ago and I bought an almost unused Mini Max FS35 J/P, 1988 and looks brand new. This thing is nearly an 800 lb gorilla; OK only 750 but it's built like a tank. The nearly 14" of jointing capacity is what sucked me in but I have to say after using it a few times, the ease of use and quality of the cut is amazing. (As a side note, this machine has standard straight knives and they are dead simple to install with the included knife setting jig and spring loaded knives. Byrd makes a spiral head for it, too.) Switching back and forth is well less than a minute. The jointer tables are about 64 inches long which seem ginormous after using the Inca. I've edge jointed some 7 foot boards for a table top on it and it was so simple a caveman could do it. I guess what impresses me the most about the machine is how well it is built and how smoothly it runs. The jointer tables have no adjustment capability on the hinge side as far as I can tell - and I took it apart and put it back together so if it had I would have seen it. It fits together perfectly because it was machined properly. I also do not see any way to adjust the tables coplaner but, again, it doesn't need any because it was built so they would align properly (as was my Inca). I have no clue if the new Mini Max machines are still built this way, but if they are that would be a powerful force as I thought about which machine to buy. Being able to dial in a machine is nice but one built so it doesn't need to be is far better. One last thought. I would really think hard if getting a 12" machine will satisfy you. I know that sounds huge compared to an 8" machine but my new 14" machine doesn't seem all that big now that I have it and I am really glad I didn't "settle" for a 12" one. If you are going to throw all that money at a new machine make sure it's the one that will meet all your needs. If you've had a 15" planer the step down to a 12" one is likely to cause regret.

John

[mreza Salav]

I'm the owner of a minimax FS350. Great machine, almost 14" J/P with 6' beds. I have used it extensively in the past two years alone. It comes with Tersa blades.
If I had the space I'd have had two separate Euro machines but for my crowded shop (that is the size of a 2.5-3 car garage) it works well.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I got my A3-31 due to space constrain, but also because of the good experiences of owners on this forum. So far, no trouble from the machine, but it is used in a hobby shop.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Warren Lake;2489421]Wow Rod

that was very nice of you.

Thanks Warren, we couldn't get him to take any money for all the work he did so I came up with that method of payment and my other brother and sister contributed money to the venture..........Rod.

[Len Rosenberg]

I went through the same debate and ended up with a Minimax FS41 Elite. It is built like a tank, oozes quality, is smooth and powerful, and a pleasure to use. Worked perfectly out of the box (crate). Having 16" to joint and plane is a great advantage. The jointer tables are plenty long enough. Although switching functions is a minor inconvenience, the quality of the machine and the surface it produces far outweighs the inconvenience. To answer your main question, go for the quality even if space is not an issue. This machine is one of the best shop upgrades I ever did. Far exceeded expectations.

Len

[Rich Riddle]

I have the Minimax FS35 and love it. It's a beast of a machine though. Mine has segmented cutter heads (after-market) and runs extremely smooth.

[Patrick Harper]

Patrick, did we discuss the Zambus/Great Lakes casters for your FS30? Don't remember. I have many owners using those, now.

Erik

Yes we did. They would put the machine too high for me. I just received a Portamate PM-3500 and I think it will do nicely. It's rated for 1500lbs. It's just a shame that Minimax doesn't offer their own.

[Prashun Patel]

I have those casters on my a331. I cannot decide what is built better, the machine or the casters. Low profile. Good lockdown. Expensive but worth it.

[Erik Loza]

Yes we did. They would put the machine too high for me. I just received a Portamate PM-3500 and I think it will do nicely. It's rated for 1500lbs. It's just a shame that Minimax doesn't offer their own.

I hear you, Patrick. Would you mind emailing me some photos when you get that new mobility base installed? I like to bookmark stuff like that, to relay to customers. Thanks,

Erik

[John Sanford]

I have a MiniMax FS30 that I picked up used at a killer price. (Killer, as in the instant I saw it on the local equivalent to Craigslist, I called the seller, then headed over to pick it up. No haggling.) It is a very sweet machine, I got it primarily for the bump in jointer capacity, as I actually lost an inch in planer capacity, albeit with better quality results. If I had my druthers, I'd have one of them fancy 16" J/P. Like many, space is a bit tighter than I'd like, having the single machine is nice. I suspect that in a multi-person shop, having separates may make more sense, but the changeover isn't that big of a deal. It does lead me to plan my processes a bit more batchily, and I work harder to keep the jointer tables clear of clutter. The complication of changing mode and hooking up the DC (not hooked up permanently), if I have a single board to edge joint or the like, I'm more likely to do it by hand than go through the hassle. Come face jointing, equation will start to shift in favor of the machine. Even more so when it's thicknessing time.

Given that you can get a Casadei PFS41 Jointer/Planer (16") for less than a Grizzly 16" Jointer (albeit with spiral cutterhead), it seems to be a no brainer to go with the Euro machine. Casadei is another SCMI company, not sure where it ranks in the hierarchy vis a vis MiniMax. For me though, I'd go with the Euro combination in general over the Asian separates, especially when there's not a lot of price differential.

It should be pointed out that there are also Indian combination machines, built in India along the lines of the Euro machines. Not easy to find in the US, no idea on their quality, but they are Euro style tablesaws with sliders, combo j/p's, etc.

[Erik Loza]

...Casadei is another SCMI company, not sure where it ranks in the hierarchy vis a vis MiniMax...

Their jointer/planers are the Minimax FS30 and FS41 Classic, just rebadged for Casadei.

Erik

[Chris Padilla]

Since my shop is a little on the small side, I went with a FS41 Elite J/P from MiniMax. Had I the space, I'd have gone with new separates from the same company.

Great machine, no regrets at all.


Ditto on this for me as well. 16" planer...nothing to write home about. 16" jointer...I'm God. :D

I have a thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?200886-Steel-Type-for-Mobile-Base-Help&highlight=) where I made my own mobile rack w/Great Lakes caster. I see that I never updated it with my results! LOL :)

[Patrick Harper]

I hear you, Patrick. Would you mind emailing me some photos when you get that new mobility base installed? I like to bookmark stuff like that, to relay to customers. Thanks,

Erik


Erik,

I emailed you a pic, but I will include it here as well. The base is extremely sturdy and I was able to build it around the machine and install by myself. I just reinstalled the table locking tabs that the machine ship with and carefully slid one half of the base under one side, repeated on the other side, and then connected the two halves.

325137

[Peter Kelly]

It should be pointed out that there are also Indian combination machines, built in India along the lines of the Euro machines. Not easy to find in the US, no idea on their quality, but they are Euro style tablesaws with sliders, combo j/p's, etc. ZMM Stomana (http://www.stomana.net/productseng.aspx?type=3) in Bulgaria also produces J/P combos. Not sure how you'd buy one though.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Steve, I own a Minimax fs41-elite, vintage 2004. On the whole, I am quite pleased with the machine, I bought the machine mostly to upgrade to wider jointer, as I try to use the widest stock available for the furniture that I build. The shop space that I had when I first bought the machine could handle separate 16" wide machine, my current shop doesn't have enough space for separates so I am glad that I own the j/p..

I can tell you I would love to get a 510mm wide jointer/planer

[Chris Merriam]

I went through the exact same situation: space no object, go with a Euro combo or get Grizzly separates with spiral heads. I elected to go the Euro route based on perceived better quality, but I've never seen a Grizzly in the flesh.

All the main points have been covered here, you just have to decide for yourself what's most important. I got an MM FS30 and am happy with it. The only two surprises are that the tables don't have a spring assisted lift, and that "technically" the instruction manual tells you to remove the fence before switching to planing mode. You don't have to remove it, but you do have to slide it fully forwards towards you and lock it down.

[Jim Becker]

My decision to buy a J/P combo (My MM FS350 was my first "Euro" machine but not the last) was predicated on two things: Space efficiency and my desire for a wide jointer surface because I love working with wide boards. There was no way that I could fit a "traditional" wide jointer in my shop space arrangement (a stairwell construction made for some limitations) so the J/P was the right choice for me. I'm hugely pleased with it and that J/P combined with my MM S315WS slider is at the heart of my shop. "Conversion" between flattening and thicknessing is quick and easy...no more than a minute...and honestly, things like that help keep the pace "sane" making for less mistakes. At least for me. The shorter bed has been a non-issue, too. While I might skim long boards at full length so I can clearly know the grain and color there, I tend to break things down into rough component lengths before processing on the J/P and I also never edge-joint...I don't need to do that with the slider available. Once the pieces are flat and faces parallel, the first edge rip is made on the slider wagon for best use of the board's grain. And that's not always parallel to the original edge. :)