New Jnat Stone and Box

[ken hatch]

I received a new fairly soft Jnat from JNS the other day. It is a medium grit stone from Niigata, Sanjo. Last night I got around to flattening the bottom so it will set without rocking and this AM I made a quick and dirty Cherry holder and lid for it. BTW, it is a brick.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatStoneBoxI151110-2_zpsy7sep9lo.jpg

It is a pretty stone, light blue/green in color. I hope to try it on a couple of my display chisels before the day is over.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatStoneBoxII151110_zps3w29eoxg.jpg

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice looking box!

Interested to see what kind of surface finish the stone leaves and what kind of slurry is built. If you would ken, post up pictures of both the slurry and the finish.

[ken hatch]

Nice looking box!

Interested to see what kind of surface finish the stone leaves and what kind of slurry is built. If you would ken, post up pictures of both the slurry and the finish.

Brian,

Will do, I expect to give 'er a run this afternoon.

ken

[Matthew N. Masail]

Interesting. the impression I got from the Razor forums is that J-Nat's where hard and ultra fine, I've never used one of course.

[Brian Holcombe]

Japanese sword polishing by Takaiwa gives a good idea of what's what with regard to stones in an overall sense (does not apply directly to WW tools very well). Different stones from different strata and different mines all perform differently and it allows the full range from roughing out on through final polish.

You'll see Japanese natural stones generally divided into 3 categories and those are for knives, for WW tools (chisels and plane blades mainly) and for razors. They are further divided into stones which are part of the progression of grits suitable to each of these types of blades.

Knife stones are generally geared toward knives where the user is working a hamaguri edge and is aiming to make a nice even kasumi finish. WW stones are harder, stay flatter and build less slurry, razor stones are further along this progression building a minimal amount of slurry.

Ken will likely be looking for how quickly slurry builds and how the stone finishes both the hard steel (ha) and the soft iron (ji).

[Matthew N. Masail]

very cool :) nice to indulge over here. I might need to avoid buying Japanese chisels so that I don't end up blowing $$ on natural stones... I have my own stone problem... well not really a problem, but I won't un-purify this thread with talk about synthetics:o

[Brian Holcombe]

If you get into J-nats it will become a problem....quickly :D

I've looked at stuff with alot of consideration that I would have found ridiculous a few years ago.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Lol, yeah, isn't that were David started.. ?:rolleyes:

Brain, with you craftsmanship, I think it's safe to say you deserve to indulge a little.

my next want is a good hard ark.. but we'll see. many more things up ahead on the list.

[ken hatch]

Brian,

It is very easy to bring up a nice thick slurry with the Nagura. The stone is very fast cutting, I prepped on a Atoma 1200 and in just a few strokes the chisel was polished and there is good definition between the steel and the soft iron. To the eye the edge looks polished, under a 10X lope all the 1200 scratches are gone and there is a nice matt finish to the polished edge. I usually do not test irons, I just look, feel and if it looks right and feels right I put it away. The chisel looks and feels like it is ready to use. I may have to try this one out :-).

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatStoneSluryII151110_1_zpszev6g4rz.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatStoneHonedEdge151110_zps1bhdraha.jpg

ken

[ken hatch]

A Pine shaving:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatStoneHonedEdgePineShaving151110_zps1wqzauwo.jp g

[Tony Shea]

Very cool thread Ken. I love seeing how other people work in their shop and seeing their tools. So what chisel is that?

[Matthew N. Masail]

Nice Ken! is that bent western chisel there to make the other chisel look even better? ;)

[David Wong]

Hello Ken,

Is your stone an Ikarashi? I recently purchased one from JNS and have been using it on a few chisels. Let me add some of my observations...

Pro's
- A very easy stone to use for hand sharpening. Smooth feeling with no chattering.
- Can form a slurry easily. I use a 400 grit atoma plate.
- Very nice high contrast finish between hard and soft steel layers.
- Fast and aggressive (for a natural stone)

Con's
- Very thirsty and messy stone. Needs a lot of water to get slurry started.
- Easy to cause diamond plate to stick to thick slurry.
- Heavily beveled edges of the stone are pretty annoying. Difficult to tell where the end of the flat area is on the stone.

I purchased the stone hoping to replace my shapton 2000. Unfortunately, the ikarashi seems to be greater than 3000 grit, so my shapton will stay in the mix.

I am curious about the use of your Mejiro nagura stone. Did JNS recommend the Mejiro?

David

[ken hatch]

Very cool thread Ken. I love seeing how other people work in their shop and seeing their tools. So what chisel is that?

Tony,

Thanks, I also find it interesting.

It is a 24mm Kikuhiromaru #1 White Steel chisel.

ken

[ken hatch]

Nice Ken! is that bent western chisel there to make the other chisel look even better? ;)

Matt,

Busted. :mad:

That's my glue scrapper and all around utility chisel. It is a cheapo Woodriver. If I had known how much I would use it I might have tried to find a better one.

ken

[ken hatch]

Hello Ken,

Is your stone an Ikarashi? I recently purchased one from JNS and have been using it on a few chisels. Let me add some of my observations...

Pro's
- A very easy stone to use for hand sharpening. Smooth feeling with no chattering.
- Can form a slurry easily. I use a 400 grit atoma plate.
- Very nice high contrast finish between hard and soft steel layers.
- Fast and aggressive (for a natural stone)

Con's
- Very thirsty and messy stone. Needs a lot of water to get slurry started.
- Easy to cause diamond plate to stick to thick slurry.
- Heavily beveled edges of the stone are pretty annoying. Difficult to tell where the end of the flat area is on the stone.

I purchased the stone hoping to replace my shapton 2000. Unfortunately, the ikarashi seems to be greater than 3000 grit, so my shapton will stay in the mix.

I am curious about the use of your Mejiro nagura stone. Did JNS recommend the Mejiro?

David

David,

Yes it is an Ikarashi. I agree with all your Pro's, it is much faster than I expected. The Con's are right on except the beveled edges don't bother me at least for now. Though they, the beveled edges and the belly on the bottom, made fitting the stone to a stone holder interesting.

Yep, the Mejiro nagura came with the stone.

ken

[ken hatch]

If you get into J-nats it will become a problem....quickly :D

I've looked at stuff with alot of consideration that I would have found ridiculous a few years ago.

Ain't that the truth on both counts.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

I didnt realize it was an Ikarashi, I have the same stone. I found it to be about 3k as well.

[ken hatch]

I didnt realize it was an Ikarashi, I have the same stone. I found it to be about 3k as well.

Brian,

At least for now a fast 2000 to 3000 stone fits. I'm setting up the bevel on a 1200 Atoma and following with the Jnat and once the Takashima "Ooban" arrives finish on it. That's the plan but in life "the plan" seldom works, so I'll see.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

The middle stones are tough. My current situation is 1200 atoma, 3k cho, Shinden suita, Nakayama asagi.

I have a soft ark that I'm experimenting with, when it calms down a hair it may be able to go 1200 atoma , soft ark, suita, ect but right now it's a long grind from ark to suita.

The ikarashi is sort of up in the air for me, it works beautifully for knives so I know where it falls there, but for chisels I am not sure just yet.

Interested to where the Takashima lands, If it's like my finishers I think you'll be surprised at how different it is from the Ikarashi.

[ken hatch]

The middle stones are tough. My current situation is 1200 atoma, 3k cho, Shinden suita, Nakayama asagi.

I have a soft ark that I'm experimenting with, when it calms down a hair it may be able to go 1200 atoma , soft ark, suita, ect but right now it's a long grind from ark to suita.

The ikarashi is sort of up in the air for me, it works beautifully for knives so I know where it falls there, but for chisels I am not sure just yet.

Interested to where the Takashima lands, If it's like my finishers I think you'll be surprised at how different it is from the Ikarashi.

Brian,

I'll loan you a small Lilly White if you would like to try a Washita in the soft ark place.

If I understand the nomenclature, and I know I do not :confused:, the Takashima is a Lv 3.5 stone. So it should be on the soft side of finishing stones and from the description develop slurry fairly easily. I'm hoping for a "firm and slightly slick" feel. I do not like a stone to feel like I'm always on the edge of "digging" in.

I also tend towards the David W school, the fewer stones in the sequence the happier I am. I like to keep it at no more than three stones with a fourth when repair is needed. Two would be even better.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Ken! I appreciate the offer, I may take you up on that in the near future.

My guess based on description is about the same as where you are placing it, slightly softer than a suita. I think it will be a joy to use.

I've always have the 'digging in' problem with man made finishers, I havent had that issue with natural finishers so I find them alot more intuitive to use.

A couple things that really help;
Make sure they're flat, I flatten them with 120, 400 then 1200 atoma plates. It should actually have a really nice matte finish to it when dry at that point.

When using I keep a spray bottle of water nearby, spray enough to wet the stone, use the 1200 plate to build a quick slurry, spray once more then start using. You should notice the stone producing black slurry, this is from the steel/iron (more from the iron).

My goal is the same and I also don't mind four stones from 1200 plate through Asagi because most of the time I'm not using them, for regular work I'm only going out to suita and starting at suita. If the suita cant recover the edge then I will go back to the 3k cho, thats where I'm at currently. I want to eliminate the cho fro my regular routine, I hate soaking the stone and flattening it so commonly, but if I am eliminating the cho with 2 gradations I dont mind.

[ken hatch]

DHL just left the Takashima stone from LNS on my door step. I'm out the door in a couple for work, Photo's and remarks later. One thing I can say now...It's a big 'em, I'm going to have to re-think my sharpening bench to make room for it.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Cool! Keeping my eyes peeled for your post later on.

[ken hatch]

Cool! Keeping my eyes peeled for your post later on.

Brian,

As before, it is a big sucker, longer than my stone pond is wide. I've a holder in progress, once the glue is dry I'll turn the pond 90 degrees. It'll work but will require moving other things, not a biggie.

The two Jnats need a set up stone between the Atoma 1200 and the Ikarashi. The Ikarashi will remove the scratches from the 1200 but it is slow going. Either the Washita or the soft Ark did the job very well and started a nice matt finish with definition between the steel and the iron. Once I solved the transition step, it was quick going with the Ikarashi and then the Takashima to finish. The Shapton diamond plate raised a good slurry quickly on the Takashima, the stone has a nice hard feel and very quickly polished the bevel even though there was not a lot of blackening of the slurry. That, blackening of the slurry, may change as I learn the stone. Looking at the bevel with a 10X lope reveled a good smooth matt finish with no scratches nor reflected light on the edge. It doesn't show in the photo but there is a good transition between the steel and the iron.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatFinishII151114_zpsiptngg3g.jpg

I may see if I can find a third Jnat stone for a set up stone, or just stay with a Soft Ark/Washita for the set up.

ken

[Mike Cherry]

This whole thread is Pandora's Box and I'm trying hard to lose interest. Trying and failing. As a relative youngster in the craft, I feel like maybe this is a slope that I might slide down in the future but not yet. Jnats and Japanese chisels just seem like a whole different level that I'm not sure I'm ready to evolve to.

I do wonder if you can sharpen western steel on jnats. I realize A2 and powdered metals are probably out of the question, but what about O1?

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Ken. Sounds like you have a pretty sweet stone there. Most of the black slurry will come from the Ji, the Ha will make little tiny bits and that is about all, at least in my experience.

So if you work a convex bevel then spend a little time on the Ji first before you work the ha. If your working a flat bevel then it will just show quickly.

The other thing that helps, and you may have done this, flatten the stone. When the stone is dry it should show a perfect matte finish when you sight down the surface of the stone against a light. If this is hard to envision I'll take a photo.

Mike, they should cut 01 no problem, they won't cut A2 that well but they can, it just takes a while. It's been a nice improvement in my workflow as well. Dragging out the soaking tub and doing the amount of constant flattening required by synthetic whetstones was getting quite old.

[ken hatch]

This whole thread is Pandora's Box and I'm trying hard to lose interest. Trying and failing. As a relative youngster in the craft, I feel like maybe this is a slope that I might slide down in the future but not yet. Jnats and Japanese chisels just seem like a whole different level that I'm not sure I'm ready to evolve to.

I do wonder if you can sharpen western steel on jnats. I realize A2 and powdered metals are probably out of the question, but what about O1?

Mile,

Smart move, your kids will thank you if you manage to resist. But if you do not, Jnats work on O-1 and I expect they would work OK on PM-V11 if you hollow grind. The reason I can say that with some confidence is my Washita and Hard Black Ark will do a good job on a hollow ground PM-V11 iron. A-2, who knows (or cares :rolleyes:), I don't have any A-2 in my shop. Well maybe that's not quite true, I've a couple of LN planes and they only come with A-2 now. The A-2 irons are replaced with LV O-1 so I do have a few A-2 irons in the junk iron cabinet.

I like HC steel, western or Japanese. I like the ease of use, how sharp you can get it and how long good Japanese White #1 will hold a working edge. Good Western O-1 will get very close, you just have to sharpen more often, which is not a big deal if you have a handy sharpening station or bench. I use both pretty much interchangeably.

BTW, I could be wrong....It has happened before, but I expect you can get most of the Jnat's advantages from a couple of Ark oil stones and a strop. Give me a couple three months and I may change my mind, I kinda hope I do. It might justify this months AmEx bill :).

ken

[ken hatch]

Thanks Ken. Sounds like you have a pretty sweet stone there. Most of the black slurry will come from the Ji, the Ha will make little tiny bits and that is about all, at least in my experience.

So if you work a convex bevel then spend a little time on the Ji first before you work the ha. If your working a flat bevel then it will just show quickly.

The other thing that helps, and you may have done this, flatten the stone. When the stone is dry it should show a perfect matte finish when you sight down the surface of the stone against a light. If this is hard to envision I'll take a photo.

Mike, they should cut 01 no problem, they won't cut A2 that well but they can, it just takes a while. It's been a nice improvement in my workflow as well. Dragging out the soaking tub and doing the amount of constant flattening required by synthetic whetstones was getting quite old.

Thanks Brian,

I try to work a flat bevel on my Japanese chisels but I expect they end up slightly convex, Western chisels I go for convex. I understand what you are talking about in respect to the matt finish when sighting down the stone. I flattened the stone last night but didn't let it dry, went right to work on a couple of chisels. I'll re-flatten this morning and check tonight when I get home from work.

Like you I can not take the hassle of synthetic water stones for day to day sharpening. Yes they can be fast, and yes they can put a great polish on your iron, but for a working edge the Ark stones do just as good a job without the hassle. I hope these Jnats will be the best of all worlds...guess I will know in a couple of months or so.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

The flatter the bevel is the more you'll notice the slurry forming quickly. With some time you'll fine tune how much water you need as well. I keep it to just enough to avoid sticking and not much more. I work some round bevels as well, since I prefer them for mortise chisels and some tataki (not completely round, but like a blended tip) and in those cases I just work the Ji a little while before working the Ha. That allows me to get a good mix on the stone and then start cutting.

Mike,
I still have A2 in my shop, so I need to retain my synthetics for that mostly, but everything else I work on Jnats, so for me that would be white 1,2, blue 2, tasai blue, 01 and vintage western plain carbon steel. I still use my LN planes pretty regularly, but my Kanna, chisels, and David's planes are all HC steel and the workflow is super simple.

The thing with western irons, I dont mind if the main bevel is rough ground because I'm putting a microbevel on it. So I work the main bevel with a diamond plate to minimize the microbevel every few sharpenings but for the most part I'm just working a tiny bevel with a natural stone and getting back to work quickly. So, what used to be a good 20-30 minutes to get back to work is now about 5 minutes. This is very similar to how some will use a hollow grind, same idea.

We're on about medium stones so much recently because it effects the workflow. If you can reset your edge quickly with a medium stone then go to the finish stone then you'll be back to work in a hurry. So there is less concern about really putting some mileage on your plane blades at that point, because you know you can wipe out the wear quickly and get back to work. I'm in trials to find the right stepping stones, so you'll see some waffling on my part when it comes to medium stones. Currently I'm using a soft ark and a chosera 3k.

I've simplified my process a bit. For setting a bevel I used to do;

140, 400 Atoma diamond plate -> 1k, 3k Cho -> 8k Snow White (also Naniwa) -> then to the Shinden suita or the Nakayama asagi depending on the use

Now I set the bevel with

140, 400, 1200 Atoma, 3k cho, suita then asagi.

So you may say....whats the point of swapping the middle stone? For bevel setting it will have little effect but it will be convenient to remove the synthetic entirely. For resharpening it will have a huge effect because at that point I'm doing middle stone -> to suita and for some blades onto asagi.

A2 has a very durable edge, so I feel I almost always need to go back to 1000 cho on up through to 13,000 sigma to get the edge I want.

[Reinis Kanders]

A2 has a very durable edge, so I feel I almost always need to go back to 1000 cho on up through to 13,000 sigma to get the edge I want.

I feel the same way about PMV11 steel from Veritas. I favor hollow grind, but after a couple touchups on washita I have to go to my oil soaked Sigma 1200 or diamond 1000 instead of washita. I can always quickly regrind, but my grinder is in a basement and sometimes I do not fell like making the trip.

[ken hatch]

I finally had a couple of minutes to make a holder and lid for the Takashima stone. I Had just enough of a Cherry cut off for the base, a piece of re-sawn scrap Cherry that was long enough to make the sides, and a small cut off of South American Walnut I had to re-saw for the top. The base rails are Poplar.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatStoneBox151116_zpss27n1lqu.jpg

The Takashima is so long I had to turn the stone pond 90 degrees. The two fit the pond OK but with not much room to spare.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/jnatStoneBoxInStonePond151116_zpsogn2ydnc.jpg

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice Ken! I like that, and wow the shapton flattening plate? that's pretty sweeeeet.

[ken hatch]

Nice Ken! I like that, and wow the shapton flattening plate? that's pretty sweeeeet.

Thanks Brian,

I've tried The DMT flatting plate and it is too big and heavy to take to the stones. You end up having to take the stones to the plate, to much hassle. I've also used the regular DMT plates they are OK but heavy as well and hard to hold. I have not tried the Atoma plates. What I like about the Shapton is it is light, easy to hold, and doesn't often "stick". BTW, the slurry washes off the Shapton much easier than any of the diamond plates I've tried.

ken

[Mike Cherry]

That looks nice Ken! That Takashima is a monster!

[ken hatch]

That looks nice Ken! That Takashima is a monster!

Mike,

Thanks.

I wasn't sure at first that it and another stone would fit in the stone pond and if they did would there be room to turn the stone pond 90 degrees on the bench. As you can see it worked out. Now to find some time to use 'em.

ken