What to look for in a cyclone dust collector?

[Roger Chandler]

My current DC is a 1200 cfm unit with a canister on top and clear plastic bag on bottom. I am looking to the future about upgrading to a cyclone system, and with all the choices out there, I am not sure what features I should be looking for.

I have found that doing your homework up front makes a big difference in the long term. I don't want to make a mistake, then have to upgrade to a good system in the future....I want to get it right the first time! I believe a 3 hp system will be enough for me, but perhaps want to go with a 5 hp model.

Noise levels, features of the system, etc. are the areas I need to be educated in, so I am asking those of you who have or have owned cyclone dust collection systems what reliable tips and info you might have available to a perspective cyclone dc up-grader? Models and manufacturer recommendations are appreciated! :)

[Don Kondra]

Hi Roger,

What would be your longest piping run and what type of dust will you mostly be collecting ?

Can you vent outside ?

I'd start looking at these makers..

http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/

http://www.oneida-air.com/

And stay away from the short, stumpy cyclones guys such as Laguna. A lot of fines escape and mess with the filter :)

Cheers, Don

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Roger, the first thing to do is forget about HP ratings, they're not how you pick the machine.

You need to sit down and figure out what your shop demands are today, and 10 years from now in terms of machines. This will now allow you calculate your duct sizing and losses taking into consideration future growth.

I suggest that you allow for the larger CFM figures used for dust collection, as opposed to chip collection.

For example you often see 400 CFM as being specified for a tablesaw, where you need 500 to 600 CFM below the table and 100 to 200 CFM above the blade, which means 700 to 800 CFM.

Once you have your shop layout drawn, use a static calculator such as the Bill Pentz site to determine how much static pressure your machine needs to develop at a specified airflow.

Once you have those two numbers, you look at the graph the cyclone manufacturer gives you including filters, and you pick one that has at least that much airflow at that static pressure.

Ignore all HP numbers, they're completely useless to you............Regards, Rod.

P.S. I have a 13 year old Oneida with a HEPA filter.

[Jim Dwight]

You might also want to consider adding a cyclone separator to your existing DC. Oneida offers the Super Dust Deputy for this purpose.

[Roger Chandler]

Good info so far......much appreciated guys!!! I have a tiny shop at present with a full compliment of tools. Tablesaw, 2 bandsaws, radial arm saw, 2 lathes, router table with dust collection and a Jessem lift, plus the mortiser, bench top planer, which in the future will be replaced with either a 15" or 20" spiral head unit. I also have a drum sander from Performax, and have been known to make cabinetry with solid wood raised panel doors........love that Performax for sanding those panel glue-ups!

I plan to move from my present location and have a much larger shop with room to work and store wood. At present, I have to do any large flatwork projects in the late spring - early fall time, as all my glue ups have to be done outside in the back yard on folding tables. Not ideal, but I make it work. Glue doesn't set up below 50 degrees, so .....

The questions regarding the cyclone system is in anticipation of a much larger shop, perhaps a 36x48 or maybe 32x48 depending on the new lot size.

[Robert Engel]

Dust collection can be a black hole you will have to scrape yourself out of if you get into it too deep.

I agree with the poster re: HP. If you check the CFM ratings for the 5HP ClearVue units (the only one they sell) it isn't much more than a 3HP.
Perhaps the increased HP will come into play somehow, but I've trouble thinking how a DC blower can be bogged down that much.

I wouldn't run right out and buy a blower yet. Your unit may work, it all depends on the demand, your duct size, and layout (length of runs, turns).
Starting out with a good duct size is the first critical step. I and may other think 6" is the minimum.
My unit (1 1/2HP 1100CFM) is too small for what I'm doing but, hey, it works and I'm not going to replace it until a windfall comes in.

I agree with the poster: Its all in the layout and the machines you currently have.
Dust producers like drum sanders, tablesaws, and bandsaws should be as close to the unit as possible.

Take a look at PennStateIndustries, too. I've had good convo's with their DC tech guy he seems quite knowledgeable.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Definitely consider the question of whether you want to vent outside.

Venting outside simplifies things a lot because the efficiency (ability to separate fine from coarse dust) of the cyclone itself becomes less important. The only purpose for a cyclone is to separate fine dust from heavier dust so that your filters will need less frequent cleaning.

If you don't have filters, there are lots of benefits:

-The separation efficiency of the cyclone itself matters less (so you can buy a cheaper or shorter unit)
-You won't have to mess with cleaning filters
-You will not see your CFM decline as the filters gradually load up between cleanings
-Filters cause resistance even when clean

I'm a big proponent of venting outside. The biggest concern for people is the loss of conditioned/heated air. Personally, I only heat my shop (it doesn't get hot enough here in Seattle to need air conditioning). Even in the coldest time of the winter, I don't notice a much heat loss when I vent outside. I've read tons of posts on this topic and haven't come across a case where somebody who is actually venting outside complains of heat loss. The complaints seem to come from those who don't even vent outside at all (more worry than evidence).

The second biggest concern is making sure you have adequate make-up air from the outside.

And third is a safety concern- if you have any gas appliances in the area (gas water heater, gas furnace, etc) that do not have fully sealed combustion systems, you could pull unburnt natural gas (carbon monoxide) into your house or work space. This is a big deal.

If you can't vent your fine dust outside, then you need big filter area and a well designed cyclone. Long story short, just get a Clear Vue cyclone and you'll be covered. If you want to do more research, then read tons on Bill Pentz's website. But honestly, you will save yourself tons of time and confusion if you just buy a clear vue. :)

[John K Jordan]

Roger, I can't help you decide the size, etc, but I can give you my own experience with the 5 hp ClearVue. I thought it was reasonably priced, was delivered promptly, went together easily, and it works extremely well.

It is also noisier than a freight train. I put mine in a sound insulated closet (shared with a big, noisy air compressor) using 6" staggered stud walls. I can converse comfortably when it is running. I ran my 6" ducts through the trusses up in the attic space which complicated installation, but I really like the result. (I installed and tested everything before I put the plywood on the ceiling) The longest run is pushing 40'. My shop has 9' ceilings - it would have been difficult to make it work with 8' ceilings.

The electrical controller they sell looked like a rat's nest to me so I rewired things to put the switches, remote receiver, and bin sensor neatly in the main shop.
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[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I can't help you decide the size, etc, but I can give you my own experience with the 5 hp ClearVue. I thought it was reasonably priced, was delivered promptly, went together easily, and it works extremely well.

It is also noisier than a freight train. I put mine in a sound insulated closet (shared with a big, noisy air compressor) using 6" staggered stud walls. I can converse comfortably when it is running. I ran my 6" ducts through the trusses up in the attic space which complicated installation, but I really like the result. (I installed and tested everything before I put the plywood on the ceiling) The longest run is pushing 40'. My shop has 9' ceilings - it would have been difficult to make it work with 8' ceilings.

The electrical controller they sell looked like a rat's nest to me so I rewired things to put the switches, remote receiver, and bin sensor neatly in the main shop.
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Thanks for the info and the pic, John......I like remote switch setup......gives me food for thought. Eveyone rates the clearview highly....seems I need to check them out!

[Ian Moone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOSH7BAFbxQ
This guy has a vid if you search for it, where he basically replicates a Clearvue cylcone in timber!.
The link above compares the performance of both against each other. No surprise they basically work the same.
So buy a clearview if you can afford it or make your own out of timber (Particle board) if you cant!.
At the end of the day you won't have time to sit and watch your dust go round and round inside the cyclone, as entertaining as it is so what REAL need for clear plastic?. Answer = non!
But there's no getting past it that watching the dust go round and round is simply fascinating & entertaining.

[Ole Anderson]

Most shops running only one machine at a time will be well served by a cyclone able to suck 800 cfm with at least 7-8" of suction. The sweet spot for your main run of horizontal duct is 7" in diameter to minimize friction losses and yet maintain the minimum velocity necessary to move chips. Keep your vertical run to 6" as you need more velocity there. If you are able to vent outside, great. It is not perfect, but check out the comparative system flow vs suction curves on the various magazine cyclone reviews. Also check out the manufacturer's specs. I went with a 2 hp Oneida SDG with a 7" main and it works great, but I regret not spending the few extra bucks to go with a 3 hp version as it gets you about 3 more inches of suction at 800 cfm.
http://www.oneida-air.com/PDF/AWW%20article%20jan%202006.pdf
http://toolreviews.woodmagazine.com/power-tools/dust-collection/dust-collectors?id=2472&url=discussions/review
http://www.oneida-air.com/PDF/Wood%20Dust%20Collector%20review.pdf

[Len Rosenberg]

After much research, and constrained by a 7 foot shop ceiling, I went with an Oneida 3 hp Smart DC. I am thrilled with it. It is insanely powerful, and nearly all of my jointing, planing, routing, table sawing, and band sawing is without dust. I'm running six inch pipe with five inch drops to the machines. My longest run is about 35 feet, and there is no issue at all. There were a few glitches in getting it set up, but the folks at Oneida were great to deal with and went overboard to help me straighten everything out. Highly recommend it.

Len

[Jamie Buxton]

For me, physical size is a consideration. There's never enough space in my shop. Some cyclone collectors occupy more floor space than others of the same cfm. That's worth watching. And some collectors offer more flexibility in where the filter can be put --- maybe tucked horizontally above a door.

[Allan Speers]

Dust collection can be a black hole you will have to scrape yourself out of if you get into it too deep.

I agree with the poster re: HP. If you check the CFM ratings for the 5HP ClearVue units (the only one they sell) it isn't much more than a 3HP.
Perhaps the increased HP will come into play somehow, but I've trouble thinking how a DC blower can be bogged down that much.



I think that one factor with horsepower might be impeller size / noise figures. What I mean is: For a given CFM, and everything else being equal (including the type of blades, etc) you can obviously DRASTICALLY lower the DC's noise by using a larger impeller at a slower speed. I'm thinking that a larger motor would have more torque and thus allow this.
Of course, this would require a specfic build such as a pulley-driven DC, a 1750 rpm motor (fairly unusual in this application) or a 3-ph inversion-rated motor slowed by a VFD.

- But it could certainly be done, and I'm sure this IS done with the more expensive, industrial DC's. I intend to do this if I ever build my dream DC system. The OP specifically mentioned noise as one of his issues, so this is something to consider.

[Kent Adams]

I bought my Oneida Smart DC 3hp and I'm thrilled with it. I don't yet have my ductwork set up, just using 5" flexible hose that's 25 ft long and going machine to machine. My shop is small so most of the time, my flex hose has more than one turn in it. I get about 700cfm under my TS blade. This DC is basically a model that comes with all the bells and whistles, therefore its a bit more expensive than most. Just turning on the machine cleans the air in my shop.

[Ole Anderson]

Are the mods getting nervous about moving threads? This one should be in the Workshop forum.

[Allan Speers]

I bought my Oneida Smart DC 3hp and I'm thrilled with it. I don't yet have my ductwork set up, just using 5" flexible hose that's 25 ft long and going machine to machine. My shop is small so most of the time, my flex hose has more than one turn in it. I get about 700cfm under my TS blade. This DC is basically a model that comes with all the bells and whistles, therefore its a bit more expensive than most. Just turning on the machine cleans the air in my shop.

That's the one that monitors CFM and adjusts it's speed accordingly?

That's such a cool design. I bet there's a way to build your own, using an anometer and a VFD. (So folks could retrofit an existing system)

[Ian Moone]

There's a lot of CFM figures and ducting size advice here...

I always understood the minimum to aim for was 1200 cfm in a minimum 6 inch diameter duct.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/cyclone_plan.cfm

In essence the figures are all there in the link above.

People can make up their own minds.

I think these a min FPS speed below which dust drops out f suspensions and can build up / block the duct etc. Nothing worse than having to clean out ducting. ;)

[Cody Colston]

I wouldn't burn up any brain cells trying to absorb everything on Bill Pentz' site. Basically what it says is that unless you buy a cyclone of his design (Clearvue), you will soon die from inhaling fine dust particles.

What I recommend is to get the biggest cyclone you can afford. Oneida would be my brand recommendation. If you have questions, they are happy to answer them, too. They are solidly built, no mdf or plastic and have great service after the sale in my experience.

I have an older Oneida 2 hp commercial and it has worked great for years. It's plumbed to every stationary tool with 6" pvc and shop-built gates with short 4" flex hose connected to the machines. The only rant I have is that the 35 gallon collector drum seems to fill up every time I turn around. I work almost exlusively with rough-sawn lumber and generate a lot of shavings from the jointer and planer.

[Alan Lightstone]

What I recommend is to get the biggest cyclone you can afford. Oneida would be my brand recommendation. If you have questions, they are happy to answer them, too. They are solidly built, no mdf or plastic and have great service after the sale in my experience.
(snip)...
The only rant I have is that the 35 gallon collector drum seems to fill up every time I turn around. I work almost exlusively with rough-sawn lumber and generate a lot of shavings from the jointer and planer.

+1 on the Oneida. I have the 5HP model.

It is really annoying having to empty the 35 gal drum so frequently (and the way mine is setup, I have to take out one section of ducting every time I empty it, so my bad there.)

If you have a combination jointer-planer, I would strongly recommend going with the 5HP model, as it seems impossible to have enough suction for those machines in jointer mode (planer mode works much better).

[Jeff Bartley]

Roger,
I have a clearvue, you're more than welcome to come over anytime and check it out. Jeff

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Alan Lightstone;2489935]+1 on the Oneida.

It is really annoying having to empty the 35 gal drum so frequently (and the way mine is setup, I have to take out one section of ducting every time I empty it, so my bad there.)

QUOTE]

Well Alan, I felt the same way until I sawed a ton of particle board. By the time the bin was full, I couldn't lift it, forget about carry it up the stairs:o

I do agree however when planing or jointing it sure fills up fast.........Rod.

[John K Jordan]

Here's a picture of the inside of the box. I mounted the circuit board for the bin sensor along with its relay and power supply and the wireless remote receiver in an 8" box. It was a tight fit, some surgery required. The box lid holds the bin sensor control switches and alarm. The switch with the pilot light enables the whole system.

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This is in the closet. The box in the middle contains the contactor (relay) activated by the remote receiver. The switch underneath is a heavy duty 220v disconnect rated for 5 hp motors. (Amazon) The pilot light switch to the right is in series with the one in the main shop so both have to be on for the cyclone to start. The other boxes are breakers, etc.

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Doing it this way gave me more flexibility for mounting the controls and bin sensor unit than the instructed installation without a mess of wires everywhere. My box is probably 30' from the cyclone as the electron flies. It is mounted so I can see the alarm strobe from all major power tools.

Figuring out how to wire this was tricky until I drew a schematic of the whole system to figure out exactly what it was doing. Taking the bin sensor controller apart and rewiring will void the warranty of course, but I wasn't worried about that.

I found the exact remote switch that ClearVue was selling and bought a couple of spares in case it went out some day. That also gave me a couple of extra wireless transmitter fobs to turn the thing on and off. A new receiver/transmitter was less than what ClearVue wanted for just a spare transmitter fob.

If you decide to do some variation of this holler at me and I'll dig up my wiring diagrams.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

>so what REAL need for clear plastic?. Answer = non!

I found the clear plastic quite useful when setting up the system to assure myself that everything was working properly. In fact, I did have a small vacuum leak in the bin seal which was easy to fix. Could I have found that without watching it? Sure, after perhaps filling up the filters with chips. After that, it probably isn't that useful except for an occasional health check and the educational value of showing others how a cyclone works.

BTW, to keep the inside of the plastic clear instead of frosted, don't vacuum up a bunch of cat litter. Don'taskmeHIKT.

[mreza Salav]

I have a clearvue for a number of years. I set it up in my (old) basement shop and made a closet around it.
Now I'm almost done setting it up again in my new shop with a high ceiling (12'). To reduce the noise I made again a closet for it.
I have various machines machines (such as 37" drum sander, 14" J/P, 24" bandsaw, etc) and finally got an anemometer to measure the actual CFM at the machine hoods. Some are after 15-20 feet of ducting with fittings/Y's in between I'm getting close to 1000-1100 CFM on most machines which is good (given the static pressure added due to ducts, y's, closet, etc).
Note that the CV1800 although with a 5HP motor, it actually runs about 3.7-4HP with the 15" impeller. If you get the CV-Max which has a 16" impeller then it will use the full 5HP of the motor and delivers more CFM.
For a one man shop that is not huge, I think CV1800 will be adequate.
Oneida is also another good machine. One thing to take note though is the surface area of the filters on Clearvue is substantially more than that of Oneida. This means better filtering and less frequent cleaning of filters.

[Ian Moone]

Remembering of course that filtering your air, (rather than venting to atmosphere), if your cutting man made boards MDF Melamine chip/particle board are all manufactured using Urea Formaldehyde glues and the outgassing of the formadehyde is carcinogenic and probably will kill you.
Yes you will retain your heat in your shop, by returning filtered air to your shop, but any formaldehyde gas will pass straight thru the filters, so you will die of cancer in a nice warm dust free shop!