Advice on Japanese chisels

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm considering investing in some fine Japanese chisels while we still have makers making them. I have a feeling that getting good hand forged chisels might become harder and harder = more expensive as time goes by.

I'm not looking for collector stuff, but hard working user tools. I'll be using these at work almost every day so it's important to me to get chisels that are great users, something that is "more" than the Narex and Ashley ills I have right now. avoiding chipping is a major priority. I like a edge that wears well and doesn't chip.

I'm mostly considering the Ouchi because I like the simple elegant look and they have blade profiles that are desirable to me. any comment how these compare to other brands?

White #2 seems to be the most common. I'm wondering what is to be gained by going with White #1 or blue steel? I've always wanted blue steel chisels but can't really say why :)

[Brian Holcombe]

I prefer white 1 for a number of reasons, majority being that it is a steel which can be made very hard and yet sharpens on natural stones with ease. I prefer it to blue steel, but prefer blue steel to white 2.

White 1 from a good maker should not be chippy. I have chisels I chop hard maple with and they do not chip, and I spend quite a bit of time working with them before they even really need to be resharpened. I dont prefer to, but I have worked rosewood and ebony with these same tools without much complaint on the part of the tool.

My go-to brand for white 1 is Kikuhiromaru. I think they're wonderful chisels, I have some by the newer generation and some by the other generation and they're nice tools, very sturdy and can stay keen for quite a long time. These take about 1-2 months to receive.

For white 1 I have a few from Yamahiro, which I find a bit rustic, but still they're nice tools. These take about 2 months to receive.

I have some Konobu I expect to be able to try out very soon, they've been well received by other users of them, however they're a longer wait time like 4-6 months~.

I have some Ouchi white 2 chisels, they're good chisels and not chippy at all. I doubt you'd find any disappointing aspect about them and they about 2 months to receive.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Brian, I was hoping you would respond. so the difference between white 1 and white 2 is how they sharpen on natural stones and edge retention? does the white 1 last much longer than white 2? will I notice a difference if I sharpen on synthetics? why do you prefer blue to white 2? Thanks and sorry for all the questions.

[Brian Holcombe]

Both are plain carbon steels so they will sharpen a bit easier on natural stones than alloy steels. Blue steel is an alloy steel, I have one stone that sharpens it well and one that sharpens it much more slowly.

White 1 is a higher carbon steel than white 2 and can be made to a higher degree of hardness. Methods are employed by top smiths to maintain this hardness while avoiding brittleness and also maintain how much carbon is retained in the solution. So along with white 1 steel you will often see comments that the smiths employ a pine charcoal forge and cold work. Cold work is not literally cold, but 'cold' relatively speaking and it is a technique used to minimizes carbon loss.

I have a layman's understanding of this, but the basic goal is to work the steel until the carbides are very refined. This does two things, it makes the steel easier to sharpen and less prone to chipping.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Do you think I could get Kikuhiromaru in a blade profile like the Ouchi Yama-Ari? I see two sites that list them- japan-tool and iida-tool. would you say this is worth the effort over the ouchi?

[ken hatch]

Matthew,

I've never used Ouchi chisels but I do have Kikuhiromaro #1 White Steel chisels and some #2 White Steel chisels from another maker. Both the #1 and #2 are very good chisels but the #1 will get sharper and I believe hold a working edge longer. If there is a downside to Kikuhiromaro chisels it is they are somewhat a work in progress, they take more setting up than most Western chisel buyers are use to. While I do not have a lot of experience with upper end Japanese chisels I believe that is the case with most. I have a few different makes of chisels both Japanese and Western and the Kikuhiromaro tend to be my go to chisels.

I'm waiting on Brian's report on the Konobu chisels.

ken

[Matthew N. Masail]

Any comments on blue steel? Koyomaichi still offers them

[Rick Fisher]

I have Tasai Blue Steel Chisels and a few Matsumura white steel chisels. I don't find either chippy. The Tasai hold an edge for a really long time. Its to the point that I don't remember last time I sharpened some of them. Under heavy use, they still hold an edge for a really long time.

[Brian Holcombe]

I cant say if any else will make those special sides. It sounds like that is something unique to Stu's offerings.

I have some blue steel koyamaichi chisels that Stu ordered for me that I like very much. My preference has swayed more toward white 1 and harder edges over the past year, but those chisels still remain go-to chisels for me in many circumstance. They're on my bench practically every moment that I'm in the shop.

Japanese chisels from most smiths are like a kit. The only maker I'm aware of that sets the hoops is Tasai and for the most part Tasai stuff is very easy to setup. Kikuhiromaru are more work typically but whoever they use for handles is pretty good and setting the hoops has been minimal work.

Pretty much all them will require some work on the backs, setting the bevel and setting the hoop. Tasai are more like western chisels in that mostly they're pretty much setup you just need to hone and use.

These are some teaser photos of the chisels I'm awaiting;

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/CbOK8_zpsbmlzenki.jpeg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/CbOK8_zpsbmlzenki.jpeg.html)
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/Nh344_zpsahfva420.jpeg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/Nh344_zpsahfva420.jpeg.html)

In another thread I mentioned that I'm happy with all of the Japanese chisels that I own, I'm not saying that to be PC but as a reminder that chisels at this level are like different flavors of ice cream. They're more a thing of personal preference and less that one reins supreme.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who owns Konobu, Kikuhiromaru, Koyamaichi, Tasai, Kiyohisa, Kiyotada, Yamahiro, Ouchi, ect that hates their chisels....they're all quite good.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I hear you, thanks. I have no idea what I'll go with yet but it help to know it's not all the important for doing work.

on the other note.... wow... I keep going back to look at those chisels..... they look... special

[Tony Shea]

Hida Tool offers a line of chisels the call Fujihiro made by a smith Chutaro Imai. These are labeled as White Steel and have no mention as to what type of white steel. I own 4 of these chisels and for edge durability there is not comparison with any of my other chisels. I have some other Japanese chisels, LN, LV PMV-11, and these chisels out perform all of these in edge retention. I have the multiple hollow versions which I really like on my wider chisels. If I had the $ and time I wouldn't hesitate and order the sword steel Chutaro chisel set just to have for sake of having. Not sure exactly what sword steel is but it sounds like just a fancy name for a mokume or damascus pattern on the soft steel portion. But they are very pretty chisels and if they perform as well as the Fujihiro version then I would happily pay the extra money for the fancier version.

Having said all that I would very much follow Brian's recommendations as he has lots of experience with different Japanese chisels and my experience is limited to just a few different makers. I do own some Koyamaichi bench chisels and wouldn't hesitate recommending these either I just prefer the Imai chisels ever so slightly.

[Frank Drew]

I have some Ouchi white 2 chisels, they're good chisels and not chippy at all. I doubt you'd find any disappointing aspect about them ...

I agree with Brian about Ouchi chisels; they're great users. I bought my set lightly used in 1981 and have put a ton of work on them and they never disappointed me. They're the only brand I have much experience with so can't comment on other makers' tools. I've got a couple of their timber framing chisels and the things are absolute beasts!

[Rick Fisher]

As Brian said, My Tasai Chisels came with the hoops installed, and the backs where dead flat on all of them. They where sharp but needed honing. I think of them as collector chisels but that may be 20 years from now ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Hand%20Tools/P1080856_zpssxhpbtan.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Hand%20Tools/P1080856_zpssxhpbtan.jpg.html)http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Hand%20Tools/P1080857_zps78mrnx5o.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Hand%20Tools/P1080857_zps78mrnx5o.jpg.html)

The bench chisels are a set of polished chisels with boxwood handles. They are really good quality.. all different lengths .. lol . but its part of their charm.

[Andrew Hughes]

Very nice looking paring Chisels Rick,I too am a fan of Tasai Chisels.Im lucky I stared my collection when he wasn't too expensive.If I don't side tracked I'll share some pics tomorrow.
If it's okay with you Matthew,I don't want to high Jack your thread.I also agree with the advise of others.
Chisels are one of my favorite hand tools.

[Brian Holcombe]

Haha, the chisel nuts are coming out of the woodwork :D

Those mokume chisels are really wild. The really awesome thing about alot of makers is that they're putting out usable art.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Haha, the chisel nuts are coming out of the woodwork :D

Those mokume chisels are really wild. The really awesome thing about alot of makers is that they're putting out usable art.

Hey folks,
Just to chime in, I 100% agree with Brian that we are all talking about very subjective refinements in finely crafted tools. All just different flavors of really good ice cream... Mmmm ice cream...

I own a set of 15 of the Chuturro Imai bench chisels that I purchased about 12 years ago. They are white #1 steel and just needed the hoops seated and the backs polished. The handles are Tagayasan Rosewood, often called "ironwood". I love how they hold an edge and sharpen so nicely. It is so meditative to work these tools. I really love them. Here is a link to the original thread where I posted pics of my chisels. This is also chisel porn of the highest order.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?236304-Chisel-Gloat

Matt - you really can't go wrong, but if you want heirloom quality yet highly useable tools consider the Imai chisels from Japan Woodworker. You will love them.

Joe

[Kees Heiden]

Here a vote for the Koyamaichi White steel #2 chisels. They have the very thin lands that you can order from Stu. I bought five of these chisels about 4 or 5 years ago, and they are still my favorite chisels. Chipping is just not an issue, while they are very hard. Only mortising is asking for trouble, too much prying I guess.

More carbon in the steel sounds like a good selling point, but it is a mixed blessing. It's less tough. In the end it is all about the craftsmanship of the maker. The exact specification of the steel becomes a mood point.

[Stanley Covington]

A no vote for Kiyohisa, and Ouchi: Don't hold an edge long enough.

A big plus vote for Kiyotada, if you can find them.

I don't have any Tasai products, but craftsmen I respect both here and in the States do not praise them. Tasai's chisels look great, but the steel is sub-par, I am told.

I know of another excellent blacksmith, who is not well-known, and who uses White Paper steel exclusively, and is low-priced, but he does not sell retail, nor do any retailers dealing with foreign sales carry his products. There are no doubt others like him in Japan, but they are difficult to locate without being here in Japan. And they are all growing older.

Stan

[Marty Schlosser]

Okay, so call me narrow minded, but what's the big deal about laminated blade chisels? Has anyone here tried the newest offerings from Veritas with the PM V11 steel? They sharpen and hone very easily and hold a great edge. Is there some mystique about them which I'm unaware of?

[ken hatch]

Okay, so call me narrow minded, but what's the big deal about laminated blade chisels? Has anyone here tried the newest offerings from Veritas with the PM V11 steel? They sharpen and hone very easily and hold a great edge. Is there some mystique about them which I'm unaware of?

OK you're narrow minded :). It's not the laminated blade per se, it is the quality of the high carbon steel that has been hammer forged in the making of the laminated blade. I've both and while the Veritas chisels are good they will not sharpen as sharp nor will they hold a sharp edge as well as the best of the Japanese chisels. As always with everything wood.....YMMV.

As far as the mystique, with a Japanese chisel you have a hand made work of art that was developed over centuries and is highly evolved to work efficiently. All that beauty and capability comes at a bargain cost. I wish I needed more so I could justify buying them.

Who are you kidding Bubba, you can always find a reason and I expect after Brian reports on his new Konobu chisels I will develop a need.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Here a vote for the Koyamaichi White steel #2 chisels. They have the very thin lands that you can order from Stu. I bought five of these chisels about 4 or 5 years ago, and they are still my favorite chisels. Chipping is just not an issue, while they are very hard. Only mortising is asking for trouble, too much prying I guess.

More carbon in the steel sounds like a good selling point, but it is a mixed blessing. It's less tough. In the end it is all about the craftsmanship of the maker. The exact specification of the steel becomes a mood point.

Having tried both, I can say that I have white 1 chisels that are both harder and more durable than some white 2 chisels. It's counter intuitive but it has been my experience. I even have white 1 mortise chisels that I chop aggressively with (no prying!) and they do not chip.

Levering out is not something you should do with Japanese mortise chisels.


Okay, so call me narrow minded, but what's the big deal about laminated blade chisels? Has anyone here tried the newest offerings from Veritas with the PM V11 steel? They sharpen and hone very easily and hold a great edge. Is there some mystique about them which I'm unaware of?

Buy a few and try them, then you'll be telling us :D

[Kees Heiden]

But are the Japanese mortise chisels as hard as the bench chisels? Or do they temper them a little higher? It's almost inevitable to pry even just a little inside a very deep mortise. Or that is just my ineptitude of course.

[Matthew N. Masail]

This had been most informative. FWI about the "cold forging" process, I suppose it's why the vintage carbon steel blades can be much nicer that regular non worked O1, not that western tools are cold forged but just the action of working the carbides and grain of the steel by hammering.

[Stanley Covington]

Marty:

The advantages of laminated steel chisels are all a matter of degree, and to some those advantages are big, to others non-existent. There are disadvantages too. And each manufacturer's products are a little different, which goes back to the point of this thread.

I believe, after many years of experience using hundreds of chisels, that the better Japanese laminated blades are superior in ALMOST every respect to the best Western blades available now.

Advantages:
1. Hard yet tough steel at cutting edge cuts well and stays sharp a long time.
2. The hard, more brittle steel is located only at the cutting edge, while the softer, low-carbon body prevents the chisel from breaking, which it would do if the entire body was hardened to the same degree.
3. The softer low carbon body steel exposed at the cutting edge bevel is easily abraded, so the blade sharpens much quicker than if the entire bevel was the same hardness. Very satisfying to sharpen. Porsche/Lada.
4. The better Japanese chisels are hand-forged, at least twice, which modifies the crystalline structure of the hard-steel steel cutting edge breaking up, making finer, and more evenly distributing critical carbides. This makes the blade stay sharper, longer, and much less likely to chip. To someone that knows the "flavour" of steel when cutting, this is a big deal all by itself. Perhaps like the difference between a good sipping whiskey and rotgut, or a Porsche and a Lada.
5. The handles almost never break.


Disadvantages:
1. More expensive.
2. Care must be exercised to prevent the cutting edge from chipping:
a. No Prying.
b. If the blade hits a nail, screw, or even grit in a cut, the damage to the blade can be severe. This is why I always keep an old Stanley chisel (you know the ones with the yellow plastic handles and steel cap) on hand when working in the field to deal with rough work. The Stanley will ding, but never chips, and is easily re-sharpened.
3. The laminated Japanese chisel is no better than my ability or willingness to set it up, and maintain it sharp. If one doesn't have the skill, time or inclination to do these things, the Stanley is superior.


FYI, tungsten, chrome, vanadium used in the exotic alloys certainly make blades "wear" slower, but this means, without exception, they are harder to sharpen. The dirty little secret those that market alloy blades either don't know or won't say is that alloyed steel is much much easier and cheaper to mass-produce, and to maintain quality control because they simply are not persnickety about the range of temperatures useful for heat treatment, and do not warp nearly as much as plain high-carbon steel. This means fewer rejects and fewer customer complaints. So the consumer is paying more for an expensive hot-rod alloy, that makes the manufacturing process cheaper, and causes the retailer less grief. Clever marketing indeed.

So Japanese laminated chisels are a developed taste, but as one gains skill, the desire to have tools that allows one to do better work faster, with greater assurance, and with more pleasure is a natural progression. The better ones are worth the cost and trouble, IMO.

The trick here is to recognise that you can pay a lot of money for mediocre Japanese chisels. I would urge you to avoid the highly-decorative products, and the really cheap ones too.

Stan

[Allan Speers]

It's not the laminated blade per se, it is the quality of the high carbon steel that has been hammer forged in the making of the laminated blade. I've both and while the Veritas chisels are good they will not sharpen as sharp nor will they hold a sharp edge as well as the best of the Japanese chisels. As always with everything wood.....YMMV.



Hmmm. I am sure you are correct with the first part. Nothing beats pure, well-made HC steel for sharpness. - But holding an edge longer than PM-V11? I'd bet the farm that you're wrong on that one. Very wrong. Even M2 holds an edge longer. ("takes a lousy edge, and holds it forever.")

Are there any well-done tests that could back up this surprising claim?

[ken hatch]

Hmmm. I am sure you are correct with the first part. Nothing beats pure, well-made HC steel for sharpness. - But holding an edge longer than PM-V11? I'd bet the farm that you're wrong on that one. Very wrong. Even M2 holds an edge longer. ("takes a lousy edge, and holds it forever.")

Are there any well-done tests that could back up this surprising claim?

Nope, not one that I'm aware of.

I use both, now I will admit my definition of sharp may differ from someone else's but the bottom line is my #1 White Steel chisels will work the same type job longer without my feeling a need to re-hone than the PM-V11 chisels will. Now if you want to come to Tucson and do a "well-done test" I'll be glad to loan my shop and chisels. BTW, where is the farm?

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Alloy will hold an edge longer, that's true but where your advantage is with a laminated steel chisel is that you have a harder edge a good laminated chisel is a harder edge that is refined. The result is a chisel that stays keener longer. I really don't care how long I can keep a dull edge planing or chopping.

If it's interesting to you guys and someone is willing to put their chisel to the test I will slice end grain until I can't push through any longer with both my new Kobobus and a PMV 11 chisel.

[Steve Voigt]

Hmmm. I am sure you are correct with the first part. Nothing beats pure, well-made HC steel for sharpness. - But holding an edge longer than PM-V11? I'd bet the farm that you're wrong on that one. Very wrong. Even M2 holds an edge longer. ("takes a lousy edge, and holds it forever.")

Are there any well-done tests that could back up this surprising claim?

From a test done by Derek Cohen, written up here and on his website:

"With the 3/4" chisel on the pin board, both the PM-V11 and the White Steel were able to do most of both sides. 22 1/2" (out of 31 1/2") of pin length for the PM-V11 and 27 1/2" of pin length for the White Steel."

From a test done by Chris Gochnour, published in FWW:

"In the end, in terms of edge retention and performance, the PM-V11 chisel ranked second only to the high-end Japanese chisel, which is comparably priced."

(apologies to Derek for beating him to the punch) ;)

[Allan Speers]

Well, that's surprising, to put it mildly.

[ken hatch]

Well, that's surprising, to put it mildly.

Allan,

Where can I find my farm? :D

I was not aware of either of those tests, was just going by use and observation. I could have been wrong but in use I find there is a real difference between the two and as long as you do not pry the #1 White Steel edge will stay "working sharp" for a relatively long time. I tend to be quick on the draw as far as sharpening goes, my sharpening bench is only a step or two from the left end of my main bench and I freehand so sharpening is quick and easy. I would guess I tend to sharpen sooner and more often than most.

ken

[Steve Kang]

Okay, so call me narrow minded, but what's the big deal about laminated blade chisels? Has anyone here tried the newest offerings from Veritas with the PM V11 steel? They sharpen and hone very easily and hold a great edge. Is there some mystique about them which I'm unaware of?

Hi Marty,

I prefer LV PMV-11 chisels. I had a set of Koyamaichi but found them difficult to sharpen. Couldn't be happier making the switch to a western chisels. Perhaps if my sharpening skills were better I would have stuck with them...

[Kees Heiden]

4. The better Japanese chisels are hand-forged, at least twice, which modifies the crystalline structure of the hard-steel steel cutting edge breaking up, making finer, and more evenly distributing critical carbides. This makes the blade stay sharper, longer, and much less likely to chip. To someone that knows the "flavour" of steel when cutting, this is a big deal all by itself. Perhaps like the difference between a good sipping whiskey and rotgut, or a Porsche and a Lada.


Not really disagreeing with any you wrote Stanley, but I have my doubts about this one. I think that all difference the forging would have made is wiped out in the heat treatment.

Forging is done at very high temperatures, otherwise you don't get much work done on each heat. A good smith finishes his work in as few heats as possible, because every heat leads to the formation of scale (an iron oxide) which is just loss of steel and with the steel some carbons are gone forever too. In an ideal situation the carbs dissapear at the same rate as the iron, but forging is not a very controlled environment. After forging the smith will do a few normalising cycles. First normalising cycle is heating up well above the critical temperature, this distributes the carbons but leads to large grains. The next and maybe even another normalising cycle is done just above critical temperature and creates the much loved small grains. Then the steel is heated up above critical and quenched.

Above critical temperature (which depends on the type of steel) austenite is formed which is a completely new crystal. Longer time at higher heat leads to larger grains because that is a lower energy state. On each heat above critical the grain structure is thrown over. After these heat cycles the memory of the steel about the forging is vague and distinct.

Forging does have one very distinct advantage. It leads to much nicer tools then just grinding them out of a standard bar of steel, that's about the most ugly way to make a chisel. Manufacturers like Narex use something like a drop forge process, which looks better, but still doesn't come close to forging.

And of course I could be wrong too. I am just repeating information I found in metallurgy books.

[Steve Voigt]

Above critical temperature (which depends on the type of steel) austenite is formed which is a completely new crystal. Longer time at higher heat leads to larger grains because that is a lower energy state. On each heat above critical the grain structure is thrown over. After these heat cycles the memory of the steel about the forging is vague and distinct.


Kees,

I am no expert either, but from what I know the above is an over-simplification. If you want to get deep into the weeds on this, Google one of my all-time favorite WC threads:

"verhoeven steel forging wood central" (just google that and you'll find the thread)

and read the ensuing discussion. Especially read Wiley's posts. If you really want to dive deep, read the manuscript by Verhoeven that he links to (I did, I have no life). Brief summaries are crap, but I'll give one anyway: the way the new molecular structure forms is influenced by the old structure. The new grains, or crystals, form along boundaries, stress points, and deformations present in the old lattice. So forging really does (or can, when done right) make a difference.

Another thing mentioned in the thread is the bogus "packing" hypothesis--that forging reduces grain size by packing the grains more tightly. That is false, but the effect of forging is real; it's just more complicated.

Anyway, I think you'll enjoy reading that stuff, since you're as big a nerd as I am. :p

[Kees Heiden]

Verhoeven is my bed time lecture at the moment. A great teacher, but it remains a dark art!

In fact, forging is being done big scale at the mill. After casting the large ingott it is being drawn out with roller mills. When it finally reaches the 4mm thick bar we need when making a cisel, it is as heavilly worked as it is ever going to be. And then the first thing the bladesmiths are doing is forge welding it to some low carbon steel. Forge welding! That's heating the steel until it almost burns away! When you really want to make a fine chisel you should take the steel as delivered, file a bevel on one end and harden it.

[Kees Heiden]

BTW, there are (at least) two elementary ways to dress the grain size. One is recrystalisation like you mentioned, the other is through rapid austenisation cycles. Each cycle indeed depends on the former. A good sequence is to martenise the steel first, that's the best starting point. Then heat and cool it quickly, each time above critical temperature, but only just high enough for austenisation.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes, they're making quite a mess of it arent they...

Here is where I pound a chisel 7/8" into a piece of wood... all in one shot....just pounding away until the wedging forces are overpowered by the wood
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/2D5E36E9-00E8-4EE0-BE9C-9016C7B7C16E_zpswupmzdqo.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/2D5E36E9-00E8-4EE0-BE9C-9016C7B7C16E_zpswupmzdqo.jpg.html)

Here is what the edge looks like upon extraction
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/9E002C43-9812-4508-9E8F-B35DE5247356_zpsxbxc8l6n.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/9E002C43-9812-4508-9E8F-B35DE5247356_zpsxbxc8l6n.jpg.html)

No chips...not even a burr is formed.

[Matthew N. Masail]

that's a nice looking MORTISE . .. . .

[Kees Heiden]

Isn't that what a chisle is supposed to do? Out of curiosity I did the same with one of my vintage Nooitgedagt chisels. It went about 3.5 cm deep. Same result, absolutely no damage to the edge.

BTW, in my posts today i sound as if I know what I am talking about which is far from true. Just sparing some ideas around.

[Brian Holcombe]

It's making for a good discussion of course, we havent had a deep dive steel discussion in quite some time on this board so I'm glad that it's coming up.

I've had alloyed steel mortise chisels that doing such a thing to would have a very ugly looking edge, maybe not after one shot, but a round of cutting mortises would do it.

[Stanley Covington]

Kees:

You bring up some good points, but I urge you to remember that the information in MOST technical books available nowadays on steel is focused on the needs of large-scale commercial manufacturers, such as the automotive, aeronautic, ship-building, structural steel industries, etc., and that forging, with the exception of drop forging, is not a factor they ever consider anymore, because it has not been done commercially on a significant scale since the 1950's. Its simply too expensive, and unecessary for 99.999% of steel products. Face it, the market for handtools of the sort we neanderthals buy is relatively microscopic, consuming insignificant amounts of steel. Therefore, the very high quality, simple high-carbon steel we crave is not worth anyone's time to research or write about anymore.

It can be, and has been, confirmed time and time again prior to the 1960's that forging does improve the crystalline structure of high-carbon tool steel. You just have to dig for the information.

Martensite formations absolutely tend to clump, leaving interstitial spaces between then comprised of relatively softer and weaker unconverted pearlite material. Kind of like icebergs locked into an ocean of pearlite and unconverted iron. All steels wear away and dull first at these softer areas, leaving the harder martensite behind. But soon, as the blade is forced through the workpiece some more, these unsupported martensite clumps are torn off the edge too, further dulling the blade. Draw yourself a picture of how the edge would dull once these icebergs are torn away.

In the case of a sub-standard blade, the steel may measure very hard on average, but it will wear and fracture along these lines, but unlike the better-quality blade, these areas will wear away quicker since the softer pearlite between martensite formations is larger. Such a blade will dull very quickly despite passing all Rockwell tests. In some cases, it will chip badly. When viewed under an SEM, the martensite clumps at the cutting edge can be seen standing out from the cutting edge like the (ragged) prow of a ship, while the softer pearlite around it is worn away.

The physical action of the hammer when forging simply breaks up these martensite formations into smaller clumps, and distributes them more evenly around the steel. Therefore, there are relatively more of them located at the cutting edge, like pickets in a fence, and as the softer pearlite wears away, the worn-away distance between the martensite clumps is less, leaving them relatively better supported, and more durable than larger, but less evenly-distributed martensite clumps. This is not a perfect solution, of course, but it is a very significant improvement.

And you are right that every heat over the critical temperature causes the mass to lose carbon. This is entirely acceptable so long as the blacksmith has allowed for this by maintaining just a bit of excess carbon. Of course, you realise that a skilled blacksmith can and does intentionally add carbon, and remove carbon, as necessary. However, you also know that if he loses control of temperatures, and allows too much carbon to escape, thereby "burning" the steel, it is very difficult to get the carbon levels back up to where they need to be, and the steel is practically ruined. I am not a blacksmith, but I spend a lot of time in their company and ask a lot of pesky questions. The good ones I know use at least 2 heats/forging cycles per blade. Some insist that 3 is necessary. Both types produce good blades.

The critical factors here are temperature control, carbon control, and martensite crystal manipulation. A good blacksmith is an expert at these things. An excellent blacksmith can do this in a dark workshop, without a thermometer, and without wasting any time or effort. Its a wonderful thing to see. I guarantee that your beloved vintage Nooitgedagt chisels were made from what was initially relatively poor-quality steel, and shaped by hand forging, using expert temperature and carbon control, by some blacksmith that knew the secrets of steel.

Before the modern era, ALL steel was very expensive, and ALL steel was forged, whether by hand-wielded hammer, or spring hammer, or trip hammer, simply as a step in the shaping process, and more often than not, as a means to add or remove impurities and excess carbon. Therefore, forging was unavoidable. That is not the case nowadays, and modern, large-scale commercial manufacturers use shaping processes that reduce expensive heats and shaping steps to the absolute minimum. In addition, the raw steel they are buying is very very pure compared to steel available even 70 years ago, so the need for commercial tool makers to remove impurities and/or remove/add carbon is non-existent. What's difference does a little bit of extra silica or phosphorus or unintentional chrome left over from a Ford bumper make in an Estwing hammer bought by the typical fellow at Home Depot? They don't even know how to do these things on a commercial scale anymore.

Sorry if this has become long and rambling, but I don't have time to edit much or condense.

There are more steps in the process, including normalising as you mentioned, which in Japan is accomplished by placing the shaped blade in a box of rice straw ashes for 24 hours. Not sure why rice-straw helps. I will ask next chance I get.

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

Maybe increase the bevel angle a few degrees on those alloyed chisels?

Anyway, I studied the relevant chapter in Verhoeven this morning in the train. Like I wrote there are two methods to manage the grain size in steel. Heat changes and recrystaliation on forging. The book from Verhoeven is very good, but it is no recipe book. Link: http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf

Rapid heat changes work because on each austenising cycle. It works because when the steel is heated above the critical temperature for that steel (720 degree Celcius for a 0.77% C steel), austenite crystals are formed, first on the grain boundaries, then they grow inwards into the old grains. On higher heats larger austenite crystals are formed, just above critical the grains remain small. Long heat cycles promote grain growth too. And a smaller grain when you start results in even smaller grains after the heat cycle. That's why repeated cycles work, the grain gets smaller and smaller on each cycle until after 3 or 4 times you end up with very small stuff.

One caveat. The book writes about very fast heating. They heat the steel in molted lead or molted salt baths. That is typical "do not try at home" stuff. That kind of stuff is extremly dangerous. I don't know if it also works quite as well when you put the steel in a hot oven, wait until it reaches the right temperature throughout and then quench it. Something to be experimented with.

The second method is the recrystalisation. When steel is mechanically deformed, you get small defects in the grain structure. When it is hot enough new crystals form around these defects. That's the idea. There are two variations, static and dynamic recrystalisation.
-Static. The steel is cold formed (for example in a rolling mill). Then it is heated. The amount of recrystalisation depends on the amount of deformation, the temperature and the time. Steel that is 50% deformed can be recrystalised in one hour at 500 degrees. At higher temps it goes faster or you can recrystalise smaller deformations.
- Dynamic. This happens during forging. Forging happens at much higher temperatures. So the recrystalisation goes a lot quicker too. It goes as you work, so to speak. There are two effects going on at the same time. Forging is done at rather high temperatures which promotes grain growth, but the mechanical action causes recrystalisation which shrinks the grains. Lowering the forging temp reduces the grain growing process, but it is much harder to forge colder steel so the deformation is less, resulting also in less recryctalisation. And lower temperatures cause loewer crystalisation rates anyway. So it is all a matter of balance, like everything in life.

White steel from Hitachi is a quality product. I would be surprised if it was anything else then a fine grained steel. The circumstances in the mill are the perfect situation for recrystalisation. The rolling mill is very strong and also vreates very homogenous deformation paterns. Homogenous is something you really want in tool steel! So I think the blacksmith must watch out that he doesn't make the end product worse then the quality he started with. He begins with forge welding which isn't the best way to start when very fine grain is your end goal. I also don't know if hamering on an anvil is what Verhoeven had in mind when he was writing about this recrystalisation process.

[ken hatch]

Thanks Stanley, I would like to know more.

ken

[Kees Heiden]

Hi Stanley, you were posting while I was writing my epistel. It took a bit of time because I had to do some pesky work in between...
I'll read it later when I have some more time.

[Kees Heiden]

If everything is done correctly at the hardening stage then there won't be any perlite in the steel! The quench must be quick enough to prevent formation of perlite. Now, Japanese white steel is mostly iron and Carbon, and steel like that needs a superfast quench. A high carbon rate makes this time a little longer, but I guess it still needs to be past the "perlite nose" within one second. That's fast! Another problem of the very high carbon content is the retained austenite. Iron can only absorb about 0.6% carbon. The rest is a problem, unless you manage to transform it into a carbide. This steel doesn't contain carbide forming alloys, so the only carbide you get is some FexC combination. The number x depending on the circumstances.

So, after quenching you get retained austenite with fine martensite along the grain boundaries. The reatined austenite needs to be converted with the tempering process in things like ferrite and carbides. During the tempering the same happens with the martensite, so you end up, hopefully, with a homogenous distribution of ferrite and carbides, where the ferrite probably is still somewhere halfway between the martensite and the pure alpha iron shaped ferrite. I haven't dissected my Japanese chisels yet, so I don't know what the reality is.

BTW, the process with slow cooling in rice straw is annealing. Heat it up nice and good and let ik cool very slowly. In the west they do it with wood ashes or in a down ramping electrical furnace. I don't know why they use rice straw in Japan, maybe because it is plentifull and cheap?

I don't think you can add much carbon to the steel, not even in a charcoal furnace. This is a very slow process which litteraly takes days. This is how they made blister steel in the past. A few minutes in the fire isn't going to add anything. Losing carbon is much easier. Just heat it up more then neccessary. Burning is something else alltogether. I did that quite a few times last weekend on my beginner course blacksmithing. Loosing your S-hook among the coals before you can grab it is a good way to end up with burned steel. It is a bloomy shaped mess, and I understand it is mostly the iron that burns out, so you end up with something akin to low quality cast iron.

One thing many romantic hand forge fans are forgetting is that ALL steel is forged. The rolling mill is the most perfect forging technique you can think of. Hammering on the anvil doesn't even come close to the amount of deformation the mill can do.

Playing a bit of the devils advocate here, mostly to learn more myself too. So please refute my arguments with reason.

[Allan Speers]

Okay, so call me narrow minded, but what's the big deal about laminated blade chisels? Has anyone here tried the newest offerings from Veritas with the PM V11 steel? They sharpen and hone very easily and hold a great edge. Is there some mystique about them which I'm unaware of?


Marty, I don't think you got a complete answer:

A laminated chisel or blade is a combination of a super-hard steel edge with a soft iron backing. The best use wrought iron, esp old stuff from ship anchors and such, and the ultimate is called "Tamahage" IIRC. Super rare stuff and it's even illegal to bring it out of Japan !

Anyway, the idea is that the ultra-high carbon steel, while very sharp, is also very brittle. The soft iron backing absorbs & diffuses vibration & shock, theoretically making the steel edge last longer. Additionally, this iron is much easier to grind and hone, so less work overall with maintenance.

I have a few 18th & 19th century woody planes, with lovely laminated blades from England, and they are indeed a joy to use and hone. I've never had the pleasure of using a laminated chisel, though.

Regardless, my next set of chisels will almost certainly be PM-V11's. I need to simplify my life more. :o

[Brian Holcombe]

Great discussion!

Allan, Tamahagane is steel made in by ancient method utilizing a clay tub. The raw material is iron sand, and the result is that it creates meteorite looking chunks of steel. Tamahagane would be used for the cutting edge.

Tamahagane is often the steel used in Japanese sword making, and the time/expertise/material involved in making it explains why it is so expensive.

[Allan Speers]

Thanks. I remember now. There are also some super high-end nokogiri nade with Tamahagane. I had the pleasure of using a Miyano Tetsunosuke once. (not mine, of course!) Just amazing.

So what is the name of that rare wrought iron? I know there is one, but it escapes me.

[Jim Koepke]

Sorry if this has become long and rambling, but I don't have time to edit much or condense.

When in imparts this much information the "long and rambling" is fine with me.

I do not have nor do I intend to buy any Japanese chisels at this time, but I do read the threads often for the information on the steel making process that tends to come out of these threads.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks. I remember now. There are also some super high-end nokogiri nade with Tamahagane. I had the pleasure of using a Miyano Tetsunosuke once. (not mine, of course!) Just amazing.

So what is the name of that rare wrought iron? I know there is one, but it escapes me.

The swords are really incredible as well, infact they are polished with natural stones and a primary goal of the polishing effort is so that the structure of the steel is made visible.

All of this has had a nice trickle down effect, making its way into chisels, plane blades, Ect.

Not sure what the famous wrought is, I've seen a few different varieties of vintage wrought.

[Stanley Covington]

The wrought iron in general is called "jigane" written 地金, and directly translated as "ground steel," as in "solid ground. " The best stuff I am told was salvaged from old ship and train boilers, where the repeated heating and cooling had removed nearly all vestiges of carbon, and the iron is badly fatigued. This is called kamatetsu (窯鉄　meaning "boiler iron"), or kamaji (窯地 meaning "boiler jigane"). Not much of this left anymore. Ship anchor chains are also highly valued. The stuff being used nowadays is often imported scrap iron from the old iron bridges demolished in Europe and America, I am told. You may have seen plane irons with holes in the face which are a remnant of bolt holes. Keisuke Uchihashi uses this material, and it works fine in the three plane blades I have made by him. Nakano san also uses it, and his planes are entirely satisfactory.

Please note that the worn-out kamaji and other forms of jigane is useful for plane blades, or kiridashi, but not so much for chisels. Its just too weak to handle the bending stresses.

The iron sand is called "satetsu" 砂鉄、and Brian is of course correct that the smelted, meteoric-looking chunks the tatara process produces are called Tamahagane, 玉鋼meaning "jewel steel."

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The two top clumps are (slightly rusted) tamahagane from Mr. Iwasaki's collection. The bottom pile is the raw material, satetsu.

The trade or export of tamahagane is not in anyway controlled beyond simple market forces. It is hard to find, but I could get my hands on some within a few hours from a saw smith I know that was trained to use it, and still has some in stock. Export is not restricted.
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Tamahagane as sold is nasty stuff chock full of impurities, difficult and time consuming to work into a plate, and very difficult to forge and heat treat. I am told it behaves very differently from regular commercial steel.

A historical researcher named Ms. Katsuki wrote a book on the saw smiths of the Tosa area, and in her book, she quotes one oldtimer (long since dead) who told her in an interview that the availability of western steel from England (Andrews) improved saw production efficiency dramatically. He said that ten saws could be made from imported steel in the time it took to make one saw from tamahagane. Quality (lack of defects) also improved dramatically, he said. No one mourned the shift from tamahagane to imported plate steel except the tamahagane producers, I am sure.
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Tamahagane production has an interesting history, and the process of collecting the raw materials once destroyed rivers and estuaries creating serious pollution and ecological destruction as sand was dredged and sifted and collected to find satetsu. The process was outlawed in many areas of Japan, in fact. Shimane Prefecture, where tamahagane is produced in limited quantities now, was one of the last places it was produced before the process was lost entirely. Hitachi Metals established its Yasuki plant there in the hope of associating their product with the famous tamahagane.
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The only ones who use tamahagane nowadays in any volume are swordsmiths.

I have a few old saws made from real tamahagane, but I have not used them much.

I have a western-style straight razor by Iwasaki made from tamahagane, and it was worth every penny.

There was a period of time when the term tamahagane was used very loosely here in Japan, and you could buy a saw made from "tamahagane" at any hardware store. It said so right on the tang, so it must be true right? What they were actually made from was Hitachi's Shirogami (White Paper steel), which Hitachi claimed to have developed in their Yasuki plant in close imitation of real tamahagane. So they marketed the steel for a time as "tamahagane." This was before the tatara kilns were resurrected. I have several of these saws in my collection too. They are not real tamahagane made from satetsu. Nice marketing, but BS.

I could be wrong, but I doubt the last two or three generations of Miyano Tetsunosuke used tamahagane at all. The Miyano Tetsunosuke saws are very nice, but not at all worth the ridiculously high price to anyone but collectors interested in the name.

If you want an excellent saw, try one made by Oba. He passed away some time ago, but the quality of his saws is absolutely superb, and accomplished sawmiths still drool over his work. In fact, the last time I sent mine out to be sharpened, I had a hard time getting it back. I think the sawsmith/sharpener was hoping I would forget I had sent it to him. In fact, when I went to pick up the saw, he grilled me about where I had bought it (a local, but old, hardware store that had placed the custom order on behalf of a customer that never came to pick it up several decades ago), and how much I paid ($50). He was shocked, and green with envy. I will never find another one of those, I fear.
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[Jim Koepke]

Fascinating account.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, very interersting history.

[Trevor Goodwin]

While we are on the topic of Japanese chisels, I have a couple of questions. Here is a chisel that was part of a 6-piece set from Tools For Working Wood:
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Is it normal for that ferrule to be a separate component or is it normally part of the blade?

This chisel was particularly frustrating, the lamination was so poor that the soft steel came right up to the cutting edge. I grinded back a couple of mm or so and it showed no signs of receding. Then I lost it and threw across the garage. Then I decided to chisel some concrete with it. I had no plans of sending it back because I live in the arse end of the world and the other chisels in the set looked fine. The concrete mortising test was actually encouraging, because the edge that was hard steel held up relatively well, suggesting the other chisels are the real deal in terms of hardness. This is a cheap set of Japanese chisels but you can get cheaper, I'm sure plenty of others have had no trouble with them.

The other problem is the website says they come with hoops set, I found I could still wiggle them and the mushrooming was incredibly slight so I'm planning to re-set them all.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you Stanley! Very interesting stuff.

[David Wong]

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Is it normal for that ferrule to be a separate component or is it normally part of the blade?

Trevor,
Sorry you are having difficulties with your new chisels. It is normal that the ferrule is a separate component from the blade. The blade and ferrule should seat on the handle quite tightly, and should not come apart easily. You can re-fit the ferrule by lightly trimming the handle to extend the socket a bit (also cut away an equivalent amount from the top of the socket). That way the ferrule should seat more tightly and hold the blade in place.