16"? WW Carey jointer on CL

[Doug Herzberg]

I have a chance to pick up this old piece of iron this weekend. http://cosprings.craigslist.org/tls/5262917911.html The seller says he finally went with a modern jointer, but this one works fine. I have a Delta 6" and a vintage DeWalt 6" that I had to do quite a bit of work on, but nothing this size.

Factors:

I will never own a new jointer this big, or even close. It's just not in the budget.
That 2 hp motor looks a little small for this application.
I don't see any handwheels.
I won't be able to try it out it first; it appears to be sitting outdoors.

Thoughts?

[Jesse Busenitz]

At that price I'd be in my truck and heading to pick it up if it were in my neighborhood. Can't go wrong there. Looks like babbit bearings and possibly a Clam shell head.... Can't say for sure. So all in all I think you should go look at it at least.;)

[Steve Jenkins]

If you look at the first pic you can see the handle on a hand wheel just at the top right corner of the electrical box. I would jump on it planning to replace the cutter head. My 16" Oliver has a 3hp direct drive motor and never seems too small.

[Mike Schuch]

You need to do some research on old jointers and there heads. Many of the old jointer heads are pretty dangerous and replacing them with a modern head is usually very expensive. I think this is one of those situations that there is a reason the deal sounds too good to be true. Good luck and factor into the price of the jointer how much your fingers are worth to you.

[Allan Speers]

You need to do some research on old jointers and there heads. Many of the old jointer heads are pretty dangerous and replacing them with a modern head is usually very expensive. I think this is one of those situations that there is a reason the deal sounds too good to be true. Good luck and factor into the price of the jointer how much your fingers are worth to you.

This is a good point, but I think most of the "problem" machines have direct-drive motors.

On this machine, most likely (don't shoot me if I'm wrong) you just need to find modern bearings that will fit, and a head of the same diameter. Several of the shelix head dealers will work with you to retrofit a non-standard machine, using your supplied dimensions.

[David Kumm]

A little more complicated as it looks to be a babbit machine. Pour new babbit and change head. Switching to ball bearings is a big job, pillow blocks, raising the tables to match the new height, etc. Byrd head will go 1500-2500 and the jointer won't have much resale value. I'm a huge fan of old jointers as they are way superior to new ( Martin, Hoffmann excepted ) but a ball bearing porter, Newman, Yates, or Clement would be an easier machine to learn on. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Looks like it may be a square head jointer??? If so I wouldn't touch it, just not worth the risk IMHO.

As far as HP goes 2 hp should get a lot of work done. With a machine like that it's not an issue as the motor sits separate from the machine, so you can drop just about any motor you want as long as the rpm's match.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Schuch]

There are probably a hundred threads on www.owwm.org (http://www.owwm.org) about square head jointers, clam shell head jointers, the dangers of them and what it takes to convert to modern heads. I like old machines and used to hang out there a lot but the moderator is kind of an a$S. There are many guys over there that can tell you by site exactly what that jointer is and what kind of head it has and the hassles of converting it to a modern head or the risk of running it like it is. What ever you decide you owe it to yourself to educate yourself some before buying that jointer. There is a very good chance the current owner got a smokin deal on that jointer only to get it home and realize it was a lot bigger project than he expected.

[Andrew Hughes]

Doesn't one of the photos show a. Crack in the pedestol.The one with the belt running thru the pic.I wouldn't bother going to look.

[Doug Herzberg]

Thanks for the replies. I was thinking I could braze those cracks in the pedestal. The cutter head I need to think about. I did see the handwheels after I posted.

If the guy is telling the truth, everything should move and be pretty well tuned up. They say curiosity killed the cat, but I might go take a look.

[ryan carlino]

Doug - I've been eyeing that jointer, too, thinking the same thing: for that price, you are getting a lot of iron! It looks like a real fixer-upper, though, and that time plus cost of parts might not pay off. If you get it...and get it working...I want to come over and see it in action for sure!

[Doug Herzberg]

Doug - I've been eyeing that jointer, too, thinking the same thing: for that price, you are getting a lot of iron! It looks like a real fixer-upper, though, and that time plus cost of parts might not pay off. If you get it...and get it working...I want to come over and see it in action for sure!

Overnight, I did some reading about square and clamshell cutter heads. I would not personally be afraid of a square one, but I would worry about visitors to my shop, especially children. So, long and short, I'm going to pass. Same deal Ryan. If you get it, I'd like to see it. Thanks again for all the responses.

[Doug Herzberg]

So in addition to that one about the cat and curiosity, there's the other one about a fool and his money. I couldn't resist going to look. It's only a 12", it's a square cutter head, one of the cracks in the base is in a structural area, and I just had to have it. I did pay less than the asking price, but I had to drive to the end of civilization and if I can't braze the cast iron, it may be scrap metal. On the plus side, without looking too far, I found a 15" spiral cutter head at Grizzly for around $700. I know, bearings, modifications, etc., etc., etc. Worst case, I had a nice drive in the mountains and I'm out a few bucks.

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[Doug Herzberg]

Here are a couple more photos. I'm not sure the fence is original. The back story is it was used in a sawmill in the mountains of Colorado until the owner died 14 years ago. The seller worked with him and got the jointer when the sawmill owner passed. He used it until he bought a PM 8" about 5 years ago. It was kept outside all that time, but obviously covered. The babbits are tight, with a minor amount of play end to end, but no discernible movement perpendicular to the axis. The tables move easily with the black lever on the front. The seller said he never used the hand wheels on the end and didn't know what the other adjusters were for, but they all move, if they are a little stiff. I clearly will have a lot to learn.


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[Allan Speers]

"It's only a 12", it's a square cutter head, one of the cracks in the base is in a structural area, and I just had to have it."


LOL ! Man, we've all been THERE. :)



Worst case, actually, you've got an incredibly cool assembly table.

- Or slap some Maple on top, and you have a kitchen table to die for.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Please make a restoration thread! I'd love to see the process. It looks like an aircraft carrier.

[keith micinski]

Everyone is going to hate me but if you don't need a twelve inch jointer, I'm guessing you don't, a really nice 8" would cost way less when it's all said and done, be safer, and allow you to spend less time restoring a machine and more time woodworking. Plus I love the idea of making that a killer table base and think that's absolutely what I would do with it. Better have a pretty sturdy floor though.

[Doug Herzberg]

Everyone is going to hate me but if you don't need a twelve inch jointer, I'm guessing you don't, a really nice 8" would cost way less when it's all said and done, be safer, and allow you to spend less time restoring a machine and more time woodworking. Plus I love the idea of making that a killer table base and think that's absolutely what I would do with it. Better have a pretty sturdy floor though.


I hear you, Keith. I don't really need more than my 6" Delta, except its beds are a little short for anything serious. I do have a lot of rough sawn lumber in the barn and I'm hoping I can face plane it, but i figured out how do do that with just a thickness planer, so this will be a luxury if I get it fixed up.

Wakahisa, I'm not one of those guys who tries to make an old machine look new, and maybe I don't deserve this because of that, but I'll try to document what I do, save the old parts just in case, and share the photos. Don't hold your breath, though. I've got it in an unheated barn and winter is coming.

Since it works now, supposedly, I think the real danger is that I cheap out and don't replace the cutter head. It looks like a really efficient finger remover.

[Mike Cozad]

I'm not sure the fence is original.
Your fence is a carey original. I also have a Carey 12" that I bought for all the same reasons. Life's curveballs have kept me from the restoration but I will get to it. If you search for my thread there is an offer from another member to help with table alignment using piano wire. I also will be adding the head from griz as its a good price. The bearings will actually be easy in the big scheme of things.

Great find by the way!

[Doug Herzberg]

Your fence is a carey original. I also have a Carey 12" that I bought for all the same reasons. Life's curveballs have kept me from the restoration but I will get to it. If you search for my thread there is an offer from another member to help with table alignment using piano wire. I also will be adding the head from griz as its a good price. The bearings will actually be easy in the big scheme of things.

Great find by the way!

Thanks for the info, Mike. I'll look for your thread.

[Mike Cutler]

Doug

Before you go all crazy, find out if it works.
Check the Babbitt's for play. If there is no play in the bearings, you're in a very good place. That is an interesting design though. I have a 16" with Babbitt's and both housing are completely outside the table throat area.
The square cutter heads are monsters, but unless you plan on taking off a 1/2" at a pass, you're going to end up with a very narrow throat between the tables. A nice cutter guard and you just may be set. Those don't look like the original cutterhead bolts though.
It doesn't look all rusted and pitted to me. Nice find.

PS.
If you decide to scrap the square cutterhead, don't junk it. You'd be stunned at how much just the blades alone are worth. ;)

[Erik Manchester]

Doug,

That is an awesome looking jointer, reminds me of this one I found a few years back that I think is English, a Wilson Bros from Leceister.

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx344/beletuen/Tools/Vintage%20Jointer/IMG_00000199_zps2f0299be.jpg

The table on mine is 84" x 16" and has a 14" square head. The top is heavily corroded from years outside in a lean-to shop and would need some serious grinding to restore for use. Were I to got that route I would send the existing head to Byrd and ask them to make one to fit my machine. Something you could consider.

It has such clean lines that it may happen one day. Glad you saved yours from the scrap yard.

Erik

[Will Boulware]

Good man! Spend a little time and a little sweat equity on it and you'll have a better jointer than you could readily buy new.

[Doug Herzberg]

Doug

Before you go all crazy, find out if it works.
Check the Babbitt's for play. If there is no play in the bearings, you're in a very good place. That is an interesting design though. I have a 16" with Babbitt's and both housing are completely outside the table throat area.
The square cutter heads are monsters, but unless you plan on taking off a 1/2" at a pass, you're going to end up with a very narrow throat between the tables. A nice cutter guard and you just may be set. Those don't look like the original cutterhead bolts though.
It doesn't look all rusted and pitted to me. Nice find.

PS.
If you decide to scrap the square cutterhead, don't junk it. You'd be stunned at how much just the blades alone are worth. ;)

Mike, thanks for the info on the knives. The top looks better than my vintage table saw. Mostly surface rust, no pitting.

That's a great observation on the width of the gap. The seller used it to face plane in a sawmill setting and told me he had to take it slow, so I don't think I'll be taking much in a single pass. I think the pulleys are set up to run the cutter a little slower than designed and the current motor is only 2HP. The seller also said he wasn't getting a finish quality cut, but he sounded like he never sharpened the knives. I don't see any nicks, but I think if I tune it up, touch up the knives and maybe bump up the cutter head speed I may be able to get a good result. I think that crack in the frame is allowing the infeed table to move a little, so fixing that is essential.

Long and short, I'm thinking of keeping it original as you suggest. The babbits are tight and the knives have a lot of steel left. Maybe a pork chop guard, as others have suggested, and then just don't stick my fingers in there. Push blocks always. I think I can work out a child safety interlock, too.

Do you know what the original cutterhead bolts look like? If I can find Grade 8's of proper size and thread pitch, will that do, or do I need more information?

[David Kumm]

Don, go over to the candadianwoodworking forum- vintage machines. There is info about square heads over there. While they were scary to use, they delivered a great cut due to the massive knives and angle of entry. There are experts over there. Dave

[Doug Herzberg]

Don, go over to the candadianwoodworking forum- vintage machines. There is info about square heads over there. While they were scary to use, they delivered a great cut due to the massive knives and angle of entry. There are experts over there. Dave

Thanks, Dave. They certainly are massive.

[Bradley Gray]

I have a 16" Fay and Eagen that is of a similar vintage - babbets and a square head. The tables of your jointer look to be about the same size as my 16" but my babbets sit outside the table on mine.

I had a toolmaker rework the square head. He cut slots for 4 modern straight knives and drilled and tapped for set screws and gib screws for height adjustment.

I have a 6" jointer also, so I only run long/ wide work on the big machine.

[Jeff Duncan]

I am not a fan of people telling me what to do, so I won't do that to you. I do feel it's good to give people information they might not know that could be helpful. With that out of the way there's a couple key issues you should know about square heads before proceeding. 1st is how important it is to have the correct bolts fit to the knives and head….you can't just grab any bolt off the shelf of the nearest box store. You'll also probably have a heck of a time finding new knives for it. 2nd and more importantly is the "why" when it comes to square heads being more dangerous. Unlike modern heads when a misplaced digit comes in contact with a square cutter head, the head will pull that digit into the machine. It won't leave you with a nasty scar after kicking your finger out, it will pull the the rest of your hand down and in! This is why people who know generally avoid them. Nobody ever plans to be careless around a jointer just like nobody ever plans to get in a car accident, but things happen. It's about hedging your bets so that if/when things happen your as protected as can be.

So I wish you luck whichever way you decide to proceed. Old machines can be great workhorses, but they also demand even more respect than their modern counterparts. Hopefully you get years of use making shavings with yours!

JeffD

[Doug Herzberg]

I am not a fan of people telling me what to do, so I won't do that to you. I do feel it's good to give people information they might not know that could be helpful. With that out of the way there's a couple key issues you should know about square heads before proceeding. 1st is how important it is to have the correct bolts fit to the knives and head….you can't just grab any bolt off the shelf of the nearest box store. You'll also probably have a heck of a time finding new knives for it. 2nd and more importantly is the "why" when it comes to square heads being more dangerous. Unlike modern heads when a misplaced digit comes in contact with a square cutter head, the head will pull that digit into the machine. It won't leave you with a nasty scar after kicking your finger out, it will pull the the rest of your hand down and in! This is why people who know generally avoid them. Nobody ever plans to be careless around a jointer just like nobody ever plans to get in a car accident, but things happen. It's about hedging your bets so that if/when things happen your as protected as can be.

So I wish you luck whichever way you decide to proceed. Old machines can be great workhorses, but they also demand even more respect than their modern counterparts. Hopefully you get years of use making shavings with yours!

JeffD

Jeff, I'm not taking it lightly and I appreciate the information. Sincerely. I'm leaning toward restoring and assessing what I have. If I can fix it and tune it and maybe restore it, that's the first step. If it turns out to be a great jointer, I'll think about spending more money on it and the trade off between taking it back to original and using it safely. Having spent some time with it, I can see that it isn't a simple matter to replace the babbits with modern bearings, but that would allow for a longer cutter head and a safer jointer. Turning down a modern head from a jointer which is being upgraded to a spiral head might be the answer and would keep it more like it was originally, although it wouldn't get me a wider cut, which I probably don't need anyway. It appears there are a lot of old PM knife heads around and my neighbor has a big metal lathe.

[Mike Cutler]

Doug

When I looked at the bolt heads for your cutterhead, they seemed to stick up quite a bit. They also appear to have a flat washer under them, unless those are flanged heads on the bolts.
Grade B8 is a nice bolt, but I'm not certain a stainless bolt is what you want. I don't know what the material is for my my jointer bolts, but the machinist that is making me a new set, tells me it's specific type of high strength carbon bolt. The bolt heads on my jointer are larger across. and lower in profile than the bolt head that you would expect for that thread size.
Here's the thread I started 2 years ago. I actually haven't got much further than where it is in these pic's, but now that I have both shoulders back, I can get after it. First step is to pour new babbits.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?199556-16-quot-Kane-and-Roach-Jointer&highlight=

[Marty Schlosser]

That's quite some "heavy metal" you've got yourself into, Doug! I'm hoping that you'll fill us in on how things go as you get it fully operational.

[Doug Herzberg]

Doug

When I looked at the bolt heads for your cutterhead, they seemed to stick up quite a bit. They also appear to have a flat washer under them, unless those are flanged heads on the bolts.
Grade B8 is a nice bolt, but I'm not certain a stainless bolt is what you want. I don't know what the material is for my my jointer bolts, but the machinist that is making me a new set, tells me it's specific type of high strength carbon bolt. The bolt heads on my jointer are larger across. and lower in profile than the bolt head that you would expect for that thread size.
Here's the thread I started 2 years ago. I actually haven't got much further than where it is in these pic's, but now that I have both shoulders back, I can get after it. First step is to pour new babbits.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?199556-16-quot-Kane-and-Roach-Jointer&highlight=

They are flat washers. Thanks for the link. Looks like you have a real beast there. Other than the cracks, mine is in a lot better shape. I started a thread at the old woodworking machines site. They like to keep everything in one thread there, and I've posted a lot of pics as I learn about my machine. It is going to be a long process, but I'm looking forward to it.

[Mike Cutler]

Doug

It is a long process, but at the end of it all, you'll have something that is uniquely yours.
I think there's something special about "ol' Iron". Bringing it "back to life" is something a certain type of person just needs to do.
Right now my Jointer is a 1700# work bench, but it won't take long to turn it into something special. Same with yours.

[Simon Dupay]

Check out owwm.org for more information if you haven't already