Should I be disappointed?

[John Ziebron]

After my move last year I'm slowly getting my new shop (pole barn) ready as a woodworking shop. And because I have more room I'm upgrading some of my machines. I recently sold my 6 inch Powermatic long bed jointer and just took delivery of a Grizzly G0490X 8 inch jointer. Spent parts of a couple days getting it setup and was getting anxious to try it out as this is my first machine with a spiral head. So this afternoon I finally ran a few pieces of wood through it and am a little disappointed, and surprised at the results. I ran some small pieces of poplar and hard maple. Jointing the edges was great. Face jointing flattened the surface really well but I was left with tiny ridges running the length of the boards. In a 6 inch wide board there were 4 ridges, each about 1 1/4 inches apart but the spacing was not evenly distributed. Granted the ridges could easily be knocked down with a quick sanding or a scraper. But knife planers don't have this issue unless there is a nick in the knives. And this is what the troubleshooting section of the manual talked too as well. So I carefully checked all 4 rows of carbide inserts to make sure none were nicked or chipped and even made sure all were tight. Is this the way it is with spiral cutterheads or is there something I'm doing wrong or set up wrong?

[glenn bradley]

But knife planers don't have this issue unless there is a nick in the knives.

Just to clarify, there is a proud ridge left lengthwise similar to a nicked knife? If this is so, there would have to be an aligned nick in several inserts as they overlap. This would be caused by an actual nick.

If instead you are seeing the trails sometimes left by spiral heads, these are more visual than physical and you should barely be able to detect them by hand, if at all.

Wood does not come off a jointer, knived or insert-head, ready to use. The effect is just different. Knived machines often leave some tear-out or the familiar scalloping that comes from moving the stock too quickly. Sometimes we are so used to seeing this that the different variant from the insert head looks odd.

The trails still stop me sometimes and I have had spiral heads for years. The normal follow up steps to making something out of these milled boards eliminates the appearance in my experience.

If there are indeed raised lines similar to a nicked knife I would track it down and inspect the inserts in that area of the head. I will also mention a phenomenon that is not inherently obvious . . . A piece of material stuck in the head that prevents the cutting edge from doing its job will leave a raised area. It would seem that such a thing should leave a gouge but, when I see this behavior I can quickly track it down to a piece of material stuck under the leading edge of a cutter.

[Peter Aeschliman]

If those ridges are straight and run the entire length of the board continuously, then I recommend taking another look at the inserts to make sure they aren't nicked. The cutters are usually spread out in such a way that each row is offset slightly to the one before it. So if only one knife was off or misaligned, the one behind it would take care of what it left behind. So you probably wouldn't get a continuous ridge all the way down the board if it was an alignment issue.

Look carefully at where the ridges are happening and use that to guide you to the offending cutters. Try turning the cutters in those areas 90 degrees and see if it goes away. If it does, then most likely you have nicked cutters.

[John Ziebron]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I can definitely tell you that there are no nicked cutters. Remember too that this is a brand new machine and this is the first time it's been used. And the ridges are certainly more than just obvious. You really catch your fingernail when you run it across the boards. I will have more time to play with it tomorrow and see if I can determine a cause.

[Allan Speers]

John, one more thing to look at is the tension on the inserts. Don't just assume the factory got it right. Yours might have been assembled on a Friday evening, just before the factory closed, or whatever.

Get a good torque wrench (You'll need one eventually, anyway. Remove all the inserts. Clean the head carefully. re-install the inserts and make sure they are all exactly at the recommended torque. (That means they are at the same height, unless you've got a bad insert.)

There's a very god chance this will sure your issue.

[Dan Hahr]

I'd be calling Grizzly. Ridges from a freshly jointed board makes a jointer worthless. It sounds as though the inserts are not spaced properly or undersized.

Yes, I'd be extremely disappointed.

Dan

[Peter Quinn]

Can you snap a picture?

[Cary Falk]

When I put a Byrd head in my jointer I had to remove all of the cutters and retorque all of the inserts before I was happy with the cut.

[Ronald Blue]

I'd be calling Grizzly. Ridges from a freshly jointed board makes a jointer worthless. It sounds as though the inserts are not spaced properly or undersized.

Yes, I'd be extremely disappointed.

Dan

Call them and then check all the inserts after they request you do that vs going ahead and doing that as you will need to know the procedure sooner or later anyway? I consider doing that just doing what you probably should do anyway. If it had knives it would be perfectly normal to check them to make sure they are all properly set and checking the inserts is the same thing. I would flip the board end to end to get the jointed side up and then you can inspect the cutter head closely where the ridges match up. But ultimately it probably would be best practice to go through all of them removing, cleaning , re-installing with the proper torque and checking the results again. If you still have the ridges then contacting Grizzly for help/advice is appropriate and expected. To me this falls under dialing it in versus a manufacturing flaw and until you re-seat all the insets you don't know what you are dealing with.

[John Ziebron]

Shown below is a picture of the maple board I face jointed. I adjusted the contrast and kept the resolution up high enough that hopefully you'll be able to see the ridges. I don't have a way I can think of to measure their height but, as I mentioned earlier, your fingernail really catches on them. I tried to call Grizzly tech support this morning but discovered they only operate Mon - Fri. Based on what you guys have mentioned I am thinking about removing all the inserts, cleaning the head thoroughly and reinstalling the inserts. But I don't want to do that until I talk to Grizzly. Like many of you I am one of those people that check all the settings and adjustments on a new machine before turning on the power to try it out. This is a parallelogram jointer and so I checked the beds. The outfeed table wasn't too bad but the infeed table was quite a bit off. Grizzly uses 4 elliptical bushings for each bed for adjustment. Their rotational position is held in place by a small set screw. And, for some reason, they have a second set screw on top of the first. Possibly to help keep sawdust out? In making my bed adjustments I discovered that 6 of the 8 set screw were not tightened down on the bushing. Not a big deal if you are adjusting the beds anyway, but I am a little surprised at the lack of quality control in this area. But the beds and fence are ground flat and true so overall I'm happy with this machine. Of course, I'm being optimistic about getting the ridge issue resolved.

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[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

It's not an uncommon thing to put a 2nd set screw on top of the first set screw. It keeps the 1st one from backing out due to vibration during normal operation. I saw that technique used in much more expensive medical equipment like CT scanners manufactured here in the US.

I would advise trying to remove, clean all inserts and their "beds". Then reinstall them with proper torque. Torque is important to prevent breaking the cutters. They are normally brittle. It's the nature of the material.

[John TenEyck]

Same here. I would expect a new machine to arrive ready to run as it was intended to w/o having to do what the factory was supposed to do before they shipped it. You get what you pay for, and Grizzly has to compromise somewhere in order to offer machines at the prices they do.

John

[Peter Quinn]

Not sure what your expectation should be. I put a byrd head on an old 8" DJ 20, and had none of those types of lines. They look like either nicks or spots where the cutters don't over lap each other. When new as delivered the byrd head was pretty flawless. The surface had a very slight scalloped look in a glancing light, sands out almost instantly with 120G orbital sander. After changing inserts I've had a more pronounced scallops, most likely due to seats not properly cleaned or set screws not properly torqued. They recommend (byrd does anyway) setting the torque with a very accurate torque screw driver, and most of them are well over $100, I have not made that plunge yet. To receive a new machine and have those lines would disappoint me, the solution may be in your hands regarding cleaning seats, checking torque. I would also inspect the carbide very closely, run a thumb nail cautiously over the cutting edges where the offending lines are occurring , rotate the head and check each insert. Could be the inserts have some burs or nicks that aren't so obvious to the eye but can be felt with a fingernail and could be leaving those lines.

On the bright side you don't have any tearout which is much harder to remedy than those lines.

[Allan Speers]

When I put a Byrd head in my jointer I had to remove all of the cutters and retorque all of the inserts before I was happy with the cut.

Exactly. And as I wrote above, make sure everything is really clean underneath the inserts as well.

this is a very common problem / solution.


Of course, one must be realistic, too. Most of Grizzly's carbide heads are spiral, but not Shelix. That's why they cost a little less, and there is (reportedly) a subtle difference in the finish they give.

[Scott DelPorte]

Hi John, I expect you will be able to get it resolved. I have had two machines with Grizzly spiral cutters and one Hammer with a spiral cutter. They are slightly different designs, but the results from all three are basically equivalent. You can see small lines if you hold it at the right angle, but you cant feel ridges. I put a final surface on boards with a smoothing plane after dimensioning with the jointer or planer, and the lines come out very easily. I would estimate they are less than 0.001 inch deep, but have never measured it. Here is a picture of a piece of walnut after going through a Grizzly spiral cutter. You can see the tiny lines, but you cant feel them. I think you should be able to get a similar surface finish from your machine once you get it sorted out.
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[Randy Red Bemont]

John, I have that same jointer and my boards come out smooth. You may have some tiny metal shavings under a cutter insert from the factory. It is a great jointer and once you get this figured out, you will have an awesome machine.

Red

[John Ziebron]

Thanks Ken, that makes sense. Kind of like a lock nut. But with the 6 set screws I mentioned that weren't tight, I mean they were not even touching the bushing. Some required more than a full turn to lock the bushing. So in those cases I guess the upper set screw served no purpose. But all is good with them now that the bed adjustments are made. Alan, thanks for the push. Tomorrow I'll remove all the inserts and get things cleaned up and put back to try it. If that solves my problem - great. Although I have several other Grizzly tools I've never had a reason to talk to their tech support. But if they are like most companies today I would probably be able to remove, clean and reinstall the inserts while I'm on hold so I might as well bite the bullet and try to fix the problem myself. Your last remark is interesting. And I will get a chance to check it out myself. A few months ago I bought a year old 15 inch Grizzly planer on Craigslist. It has a knife cutter head. But I got such a good deal on it that I did buy the Shelix replacement head from Grizzly, just haven't installed it yet.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

BTW John, I have a G0490X (one of the 2 Grizzly tools I own). The G0490X has a history of arriving with loose set screws. Reading that here, when my delivered, after assembling it I took the time to remove every set screw I could find, and reinstall it with some blue Loc-Tite thread locker. I torqued all the cutters using a torque wrench.

The tool has worked flawlessly for several years now.

[Rick Fisher]

Your going to need to set all the knives. Torque wrench.. Its good practice. Few people who own bigger machines don't pull wrenches at times..

[Cary Falk]

You don't need a $100+ torque wrench. This one works fine.
http://www.harborfreight.com/14-in-drive-click-type-torque-wrench-61277.html
Don't forget to take your 20% coupon.
http://www.harborfreight.com/

[Rick Fisher]

I was thinking about this thread..

When I bought my first 20" Planer, GI . It came with a shorted and fried motor. They sent me a new one, I pulled wrenches.

I bought a new 24" GI drum sander, the conveyor control module burned up the first hour, they sent me a new one. I attached wires, and turned sheet metal screws. They also didn't tension the belts, so I did it.. more wrenches.

This led me to believe I could restore an old Bandsaw.. So I did, turned out I was right.

I recently partially disassembled and changed the capacitors on my Phase Perfect, replaced a faulty starter on my dust collector, and did a total restoration on a Griggo Planer ..

It all started with receiving faulty machinery, and being willing to fix them .. My willingness came from someone on a forum telling me I had taken up owning woodworking machinery as a hobby .. not gold fish, or flying kites..

So I bought a full set of metric wrenches, and never looked back ..

[Kelly Craig]

My G0490X is only a couple months old. Due to circumstance, everything I've ran through it is highly figured walnut and acacia. After the expected adjustments of the beds, and a quick tap of the cutters from my Panasonic, set on low, it spits out faced material with no ridges.

For the heck of it, lay a short straight edge on the out-feed at points where you are noticing ridges and turn the head, as if it were running. See if you notice more click in one area than another. You may get lucky and note the culprits.

[Mike Chalmers]

and a quick tap of the cutters from my Panasonic,

Please explain. Panasonic?

[Kelly Craig]

Impact driver, which can be adjusted for torque.

[John Ziebron]

Rick, I understand where you're coming from. By now I should know better as well. After discovering so many of the bed adjustment set screws loose I decided to check all the other fasteners on the machine that could affect it's operation now and in the future. And then I found that the 4 bolts, 2 on each pillow block, that hold the cutter head in place barely hand tight. Although I don't know what the torque specs are for these bolts I know that they should be much more than they were. So I tightened then all equally. Kelly, after rereading the manual with regard to the inserts they mention to be careful about not using too much oil because if there's too much in the hole the insert screw may not hold the insert tight and oil under the insert can be a problem as well. And this machine came well oiled. So this morning I removed all the inserts and thoroughly cleaned the head. However, I cannot reinstall the inserts yet because I discovered my 3/8 drive torque wrench does not go down to the 48-50 inch pounds specified. I don't live near any big cities but I tried the auto parts stores in the 2 smaller ones by me and none had a 1/4 drive torque wrench. So I ordered one but have to wait until Wednesday for it. Sorry Cary, that looks like a good deal from HF, but none close to me and their shipping is not that fast. Stay tuned; I'll let everyone know by the end of this week how it goes.

[Keith Weber]

Impact driver, which can be adjusted for torque.

Torque adjustment on an impact driver is crude, to say the least. I'll be the last one to recommend anything from HF, but you'd get better consistency with one of their torque wrenches than an impact driver of any brand.

[Rick Fisher]

Hey John..

I think you have a right to be disappointed and annoyed .. Its not that we should expect it .. end of the day, your gonna be pulling some wrenches. I would argue that its not a brand thing.. its a factory thing .. I had similar issues with General International .. At the AWFS show, I cut my finger on a really rough casting on a Powermatic 4 poster planer. If it where mine, I would have to sand off the sharp edge.. on a brand new machine.

I think its just part of the hobby .. it annoys me, but its inescapable, unless you buy Euro stuff.. but even then you hear stories..

[John Ziebron]

Update to my problem. I finally got a 1/4 inch drive torque wrench and so I thoroughly cleaned the cutter head and inserts. I then reinstalled them and torqued them all to 50 inch pounds per the manual instructions. When cleaning and preparing the cutter head I noticed about 3 insert areas where there was a sliver of steel hanging on from machining the insert mounting surface. I couldn't tell if any of them were actually under the inserts when they were installed at the factory but I removed them to make sure they would not be a problem for me. I also noticed the space between one of the spiral rows had some small dimple marks that felt very rough. These wouldn't affect performance but I just think it's poor quality control at the factory. I finally powered the unit back on and ran a few pieces of soft and hardwood on it, including the same hard maple piece that had the ridges. I would say it's still not as good as a knife cutter head but it is certainly much better. I can still see 2 or 3 ridges but they are barely detectable unlike the previous ones. Two swipes on the hard maple with 320 grit made it perfectly smooth. So , in the end, I"m still slightly disappointed but I am willing to make that sacrifice fro the durability of the carbide cutters as I have a few hard maple projects lined up. Someone earlier mentioned that this cutter head is Grizzly's and not a Shelix. As a side note, a few months ago I got a great deal on a 1 year old 15 inch Grizzly planer with knives. Shortly after I bought it I went to Grizzly's web site and bought the Shelix replacement cutter head but have not installed it yet. It will be interesting to see a comparison of finishes between the jointer and planer when I do.

[Andrew Joiner]

I would say it's still not as good as a knife cutter head but it is certainly much better. I can still see 2 or 3 ridges but they are barely detectable unlike the previous ones. Two swipes on the hard maple with 320 grit made it perfectly smooth..

Wow John. What straight knife head are you comparing it to? If two swipes with 320 grit removes all the cutter head marks that's better than I'd ever expect from any jointer or planer.

[Edward Oleen]

A friend just took delivery of a 60C... No problems at all right out of the box.