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Brian Sommers
10-30-2015, 5:01 PM
I was talking to day with a furniture maker in town and he considered "hand" made anything where a power tool has not touched the wood from unfinished to finished product.

Is this correct?

In other words, if I make say, a wooden toy and use a scroll-saw and electric belt sander, etc to make it, can I label it "handmade in the USA" ?

Mike Henderson
10-30-2015, 5:14 PM
That seems somewhat restrictive. If you buy lumber already sawn from the log, it was sawn using power tools. If it was S3S, then it was planed using power tools.

If you take the wood into your shop and saw it to length using a power tool, and/or plane it to thickness with a power tool, I see that as a continuation of the original preparation of the wood.

So where you draw the line between hand made and machine made is difficult. I would say that if the project is a one-off and you did all the work yourself, you would have a reasonable argument that it was hand-made. If you did the joinery by hand - say hand cut dovetails - you would add additional support to your argument that it was hand-made.

The other alternative is that you go into the forest and cut the tree down with an ax (or two man buck saw), cut the log into boards with a hand saw, flatten the board with hand planes, saw the wood with hand saws, and never use an electron in the making of the furniture. And I don't think that's reasonable or possible.

Mike

Brian Henderson
10-30-2015, 5:36 PM
You can label it anything you want, there is no one out there who is going to stop you unless you're purposely trying to defraud someone. Don't worry about it, if you want to call it handmade, go for it.

Bruce Page
10-30-2015, 5:36 PM
I agree with Mike. I equate machine made to production or factory made. One off's that I make in my shop using standard shop tools e.g. table saw, jointer, sander are still hand made IMO.
Welcome to Sawmill Creek.

Mike Schuch
10-30-2015, 5:38 PM
Hand made is a completely meaningless term like organic. To me it means absolutely nothing!

glenn bradley
10-30-2015, 5:48 PM
Welcome!

So the furniture maker in town gets out of his handmade bed when the rooster crows, walks into the forest with his stone axe and cuts down a tree . . .

There is no shortage of people who have to set some imaginary rules, restrictions or qualifications in order to bolster a poor self image or to make themselves feel special. While some consider CNC and laser work to be pretty much "George Jetson" woodworking (yes, there is a lot more to it than just pushing a button :D), I don't think its necessary to draw a line in the sand and try to value the craft as a craft :).

Bruce Page
10-30-2015, 5:50 PM
Is there a difference between hand made and hand crafted? For some reason I consider one off's made using my CNC router to be hand crafted but I can't really explain the difference. :confused:

Lee Schierer
10-30-2015, 5:54 PM
Hmmm, I have to use my hands for everything I build.

Wade Lippman
10-30-2015, 5:56 PM
You can label it anything you want, there is no one out there who is going to stop you unless you're purposely trying to defraud someone. Don't worry about it, if you want to call it handmade, go for it.

You can't defraud anyone; the term has no particular meaning, so you are not making any kind of claim that can be false.

Garth Almgren
10-30-2015, 6:19 PM
I agree with Mike. I equate machine made to production or factory made. One off's that I make in my shop using standard shop tools e.g. table saw, jointer, sander are still hand made IMO.
Same here. I draw the line at robots doing the work, or production lines where raw materials go in one end and a (mostly) finished product pops out the other end. :)

Brian Holcombe
10-30-2015, 6:21 PM
I would expect it to include some aspect of hand work, that includes handwork done in a factory (that still does exist on a high level). As has been pointed out, unless you are controlling every aspect from sourcing the lumber on through then it's not entirely hand work.

There are people who do source their own lumber and actually take trees down by hand, but it's important to note that every task of something which is entirely hand made was a specialty in it's own right in the days when that sort of thing was commonplace, so being capable of every aspect of the work from harvesting the tree on through applying the finish is possible, but being expert in all of those processes is unlikely until the far end of ones career if at all. It's not unimportant to have an idea of how these tasks can effect the end product, but being reliant on others usually means one needs to concede to the machine in one aspect or another.

I think the term is so broadly applied that it is practically lost all meaning, and that is likely what the furniture maker in the original post was pointing out. It is a hollow term at this point so many have gone to greater lengths to describe exactly what hand made means in their process. I've seen videos produced by major manufacturers on down through individual craftsmen which detail the hand-made aspects of their products.

Bill Space
10-30-2015, 6:33 PM
If a hand touches it in the manufacturing process, it is hand made. How could it be otherwise?

The hand that is holding the manual plane(or saw, or whatever)is not doing the work, the plane is. So that original guy's self definition of what hand made is, is flawed.

But it who really cares anyway? Except those who may be marketing the items...

Brian Henderson
10-30-2015, 7:06 PM
You can't defraud anyone; the term has no particular meaning, so you are not making any kind of claim that can be false.

I just said that nobody is going to stop your labeling attempt unless it is a purposeful attempt to defraud, which, as you point out, can't happen in this case. I guess if you claimed that it was made out of exotic wood and it turned out to be made out of MDF, that would be fraud.

Andrew Hughes
10-30-2015, 7:16 PM
Amazon has a new seller platform for Handmade stuff.I tryd to sign up but was rejected,I was too honest filling out the questions for a opportunity to sell on the new site.Any use of powertools will not get you in.
I doubt anyone would pay my asking price for one of my simple dovetail boxes if it were completely handmade.Very few people would appreciate the work or know what they are looking at.

Peter Aeschliman
10-30-2015, 7:21 PM
But it who really cares anyway? Except those who may be marketing the items...

I think the people who care are either:

1) snobs with an elevated sense of self-importance, or
2) consumers who value the "intangible element" of non-factory made items and are willing to pay some premium for it

#1 is silly.

For #2, those kinds of consumers need to do their research before buying to get an accurate understanding of how the item was made. I start to get annoyed when manufacturers over-use the term in such a way that would mislead your average consumer into believing their goods are one-off, one of a kind item that involved lots of personal attention from a craftsman, when in fact they are made on an automated factory line in Malaysia. That's where it starts to feel dishonest, even if there isn't a legal definition of the term "hand made."

As always, buyer beware.

Matt Day
10-30-2015, 7:35 PM
"Custom" might be a good alternative if you're worried about the term hand made.

Yonak Hawkins
10-30-2015, 7:36 PM
Amazon has a new seller platform for Handmade stuff.I tryd to sign up but was rejected,I was too honest filling out the questions for a opportunity to sell on the new site.Any use of powertools will not get you in.

This surprises me. I guess I'll not bother signing up.

Robert Engel
10-30-2015, 8:16 PM
My interpretation is "handmade" isn't restricted to made only with hand tools.

However, there are cases where a machine would disqualify "handmade:.
For example, you can't say "handcarved" if it was done by a CNC machine.

Frederick Skelly
10-30-2015, 8:29 PM
I guess Im the odd man out.
* I always think of my work as "hand made" if most of the work that I personally did, was done with hand tools. Mike's points are valid. But personally, I think of it this way even if I start with S4S.
* I always think of "custom made" as something I made in my shop, one item at a time, rather than mass produced. Even if I do all of the work with machines.
* I think of "factory made" as exactly that, though there are obviously high end factories that sell high quality work, like wherever Ethan Allen is made.

I make these distinctions in my own head, just because my brain racks and stacks by categories and such. I don't think Im being phony or uppity by categorizing my work - either in my head or in what I tell the people I give my work to. It's just the way I explain things. YMMV, of course.

Roger Feeley
10-30-2015, 8:37 PM
I found an Etsy article that addresses the subject. http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y13/m10/i14/s02

"It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product."

I take the above quote to mean that you can use a router as long as you guide the router and not a computer. The Etsy article says that the FTC source is a 'guidance' and not binding.

Doug Hepler
10-30-2015, 11:50 PM
Brian,

I agree with Garth and Bruce. Consider the spectrum of possible furniture production methods. At one extreme no power tools were used after the boards are sawn and surfaced. At the other extreme is automated mass production. You decide which end of this spectrum includes your work.

When you open the drawer of a hand made desk, you feel the smooth motion and hear a quiet whoosh because a craftsman cut and trimmed the drawer until it fit perfectly into the opening. It does not matter whether he used a machine or saw and chisel to make it. The grain pattern and silky feel of a hand rubbed top results only from a craftsman’s patient efforts. Such a piece did not come from a factory. You are touching something that a person took pains to make. IMO that's hand made.

So, the idea of hand made furniture is on shaky ground if we try to take it literally. The term is valid, however, if it refers to a unique piece made by a particular craftsman using his/her skill to meet the needs and desires of another person. Hand-made, in this sense refers to a metaphorical hand-clasp across time and space.

Doug

Brian Holcombe
10-31-2015, 12:00 AM
Do 'factories' include those that actually do handwork (meaning work performed utilizing hand tools)? I'm curious.

This thread presents the idea that 'factory made' is junk and 'craftsman made' is always good. There are plenty of things which are both factory and craftsman made, by a craftsman working in a factory.

I present that rather than needing to pigeon hole utilizing 'broad strokes' definitions one should consider good or bad on it's own merit.

Brad Barnhart
10-31-2015, 6:37 AM
Every woodworker is going to have their own opinions about hand made. And I also believe pride in your work enters into it, too. Personally, I don't have the capabilities, or desire to mass produce anything. Woodworking is an art in a class all by itself. Whether its lathe work, scroll work, or whatever, from a craftsmanship stand point, I use my hands to operate every tool, & complete every step of construction of my projects. Sometimes, like others here, I've got more than one project going at one time. But it still takes my brains, my hands, my skill & time to complete every project. All my work is hand made, & made right here in Kansas.

Bill Ryall
10-31-2015, 8:56 AM
I've been following this with interest as I had a "discussion" with a co-worker who definitely falls under the #1 category above (snobs with an elevated sense of self-importance). I consider everything I do handmade, even though I use power tools, production line methods and at times, machines built specifically to perform a very specific operation. It is all manually controlled. No computer control or automation. I even still use a drafting board as opposed to CAD.

However, as part of this conversation, we should define the term "mass-produced". I will often do short production runs of certain items. Right now, I'm doing 3 dozen toy cars. Immediately following, I have a dozen lamps scheduled. I follow basic production line principles- I will set up my band saw and cut 3 dozen+ car bodies > set up a specific jig and cut 150 or so wheel blanks (and probably a couple dozen lamp bases) > set up drill press #1 for drilling windows, and DP #2 for axle holes > sand all the wheels (and lamp bases) on a machine specifically built for the purpose, etc.

I'll do a run, and hand finish everything, then move on to the next project, be it another short production run or a big one-off piece. So, does that qualify as "mass-produced"? I may only do the 3 dozen cars, and not do them again for a couple years. It is whatever muse strikes me, or what clients ask for.

jack forsberg
10-31-2015, 8:58 AM
hard to argue that this is not hand made



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGDkliy1DEU

terry mccammon
10-31-2015, 9:43 AM
So if I make a wooden toy on my electric motor driven lathe is that hand made?

jack duren
10-31-2015, 9:52 AM
I was talking to day with a furniture maker in town and he considered "hand" made anything where a power tool has not touched the wood from unfinished to finished product.

Is this correct?

In other words, if I make say, a wooden toy and use a scroll-saw and electric belt sander, etc to make it, can I label it "handmade in the USA" ?

No its not correct. A very very loose term. Tell him another furniture maker said so. ;)

Seems there is a lot of this garage comparison going on. This is what I consider hand made. It was once a blob, now look its a pot..
324386

jack forsberg
10-31-2015, 9:59 AM
So if I make a wooden toy on my electric motor driven lathe is that hand made?
sure Hand made with machines but than what is machine made? Both require skill to do good work though some may argue less skill with machines. the Machines purpose is to remove skill.

jack duren
10-31-2015, 10:07 AM
sure Hand made with machines but than what is machine made? Both require skill to do good work though some may argue less skill with machines. the Machines purpose is to remove skill.

"the Machines purpose is to remove skill." Or speed it up. There's a flip side to almost every argument..

The best thing is too be proud of what your making and not worry about others labeling you.

Martin Wasner
10-31-2015, 10:27 AM
Anybody know how I can make something completely not handmade? I'd like to stick a tree in end of the shop and have a paycheck pop out the other end, I'd settle for a complete finished cabinet though ready for install.

jack forsberg
10-31-2015, 10:30 AM
"the Machines purpose is to remove skill." Or speed it up. There's a flip side to almost every argument..

The best thing is too be proud of what your making and not worry about others labeling you.

I made no augment for one side or the other. I will say that thous with just hand tool skills would not last a day in my shop. You need machine skills like those for CNC. but i would hardly call sending wood through the planer hand planed. One is not better than the other in terms of pride.

Many hand tools are simple machines made to remove the skill of an Ax or knife.

John T Barker
10-31-2015, 10:56 AM
Here's some food for thought:
324392
I worked for a company and while an "apprentice" I helped our top cabinetmaker make a chest identical to this. All the lumber was face jointed and then sent through the planer. I hand scraped it afterwords. Raised panels were milled on a shaper then hand sanded. Drawers were dovetailed by hand with a variety of power tool methods to speed up the process. Bracket feet were cut on a bandsaw and the hole drilled on a drill press. All moldings were made shaped on a shaper or with router bits, then hand scaped and sanded. All tenons were (probably) cut on a table saw, mortises cut with a hollow chisel mortiser. This work was done primarily by one man at his bench (and nearby machines) with me assisting in the grunt work.

"Hand made" or not?

Frederick Skelly
10-31-2015, 10:59 AM
Do 'factories' include those that actually do handwork (meaning work performed utilizing hand tools)? I'm curious.

This thread presents the idea that 'factory made' is junk and 'craftsman made' is always good. There are plenty of things which are both factory and craftsman made, by a craftsman working in a factory.

I present that rather than needing to pigeon hole utilizing 'broad strokes' definitions one should consider good or bad on it's own merit.

I think I get your point Brian. Not all factory made stuff if junk - depends on the material used and how it's put together. I think someone would be hard pressed to say Ethan Allen is junk, though it's factory made. To me, a factory is doing mass production - hundreds a year sort of thing. If they do some of it with hand tools, Id still bet that at large volumes (hundreds per year) they arent doing most of the work by hand. So I might call that darn good furniture, but to me, it's not hand made.

Brian Holcombe
10-31-2015, 11:43 AM
I sure you're correct when you say it is mostly machine tools, however they are using handtools in many high end shops some of them are quite large (200 men). Short of a rare few that's about as close as I think you'll come to a 'handmade' factory product. I dont consider everything produced by a factory environment to be mass produced, I think mass production implies a scale at the level meant to stock the shelves of retail giants, but a factory (in my opinion) need not be massive.

Look at the work of Carl Hansen & Son, PP Mobler, Rud Rasmussen (i've seen recent video of these guys actually chopping dovetails in their shop), Elie Bleu tabletier, Hermes, Louis Vuitton (they make traditional luggage in the traditional method utilizing much hand work), Marunao. These companies are large enough to supply stock to many luxury retailers.

I dont fault anyone for producing using machine tools, one must earn a living and keep their factory working and so I certainly understand why many steps have been taken to maintain as much handmade quality as they can while speeding up process with certain machinery. However, if quality is the top priority then not all hand tasks can be eliminated, so what they will often do is minimize them to those key steps.

I was not pointing to your post in specific with my reply, more to the general sentiment of this thread.

jack duren
10-31-2015, 12:19 PM
Here's some food for thought:
324392
I worked for a company and while an "apprentice" I helped our top cabinetmaker make a chest identical to this. All the lumber was face jointed and then sent through the planer. I hand scraped it afterwords. Raised panels were milled on a shaper then hand sanded. Drawers were dovetailed by hand with a variety of power tool methods to speed up the process. Bracket feet were cut on a bandsaw and the hole drilled on a drill press. All moldings were made shaped on a shaper or with router bits, then hand scaped and sanded. All tenons were (probably) cut on a table saw, mortises cut with a hollow chisel mortiser. This work was done primarily by one man at his bench (and nearby machines) with me assisting in the grunt work.

"Hand made" or not?

The real question is do you feel its hand made or not? If you made the piece tomorrow twice as fast and with quality as good as the first piece with more machine, does it mean anything in reality?

John Donhowe
10-31-2015, 12:50 PM
How 'bout an operational definition of "handmade" based on the adage "to err is human"? That is, something is handmade if, somewhere in the construction of a piece, there is evidence (or at least the opportunity) of an "oops" moment: a defect in the end product (imperfect joint, ding, or whatever) that you wouldn't expect in a a machine manufactured piece. My guess is that I'm not alone in my limited experience that while I strive for perfection in any project, I have yet to produce anything where there hasn't been a single goof (even if visible only to me).

I take some consolation for my mistakes from the story that harpsichord builders from 300+ years ago would intentionally make small flaws in their instruments because "only God can achieve perfection."

Brian Henderson
10-31-2015, 1:59 PM
So if I make a wooden toy on my electric motor driven lathe is that hand made?

According to some people, no. But saying that a project isn't hand-made because you used a random orbit sander to sand it is ridiculous.

Mike Henderson
10-31-2015, 2:05 PM
I take some consolation for my mistakes from the story that harpsichord builders from 300+ years ago would intentionally make small flaws in their instruments because "only God can achieve perfection."

I first heard that story about Persian carpets, which are hand tied. Of course, it's just an excuse for the mistakes. In any complex hand made project there will be mistakes.

Mike

Mike Henderson
10-31-2015, 2:13 PM
Years ago, oil paint art was brought in to the US from Asia. The pictures were advertised as "hand painted". But the way they were painted was that the canvas moved down a production line. On a landscape, for example, one worker would paint birds flying in the background. Another would put in sand dunes. Another would paint some grass on the sand dunes, etc.

So are those pictures hand painted? Or not?

Thomas Kinkade is reputed to have used (he passed away) a high end reproduction process, but to hand paint a part of the picture and then sign the work. Was that an "original" Kinkade? I believe it was sold that way.

Mike

Brian Kent
10-31-2015, 3:03 PM
The other alternative is that you go into the forest and cut the tree down with an ax (or two man buck saw), cut the log into boards with a hand saw, flatten the board with hand planes, saw the wood with hand saws, and never use an electron in the making of the furniture. And I don't think that's reasonable or possible.
Mike

But Mike, in order for it to be hand-made shouldn't you dig up the iron ore with your bare hands, pound the chunks of iron into a bucket, process it in a hand-made smelter, and make the axe and your saw by hand, then go into the forest and cut down a tree.

Brian Henderson
10-31-2015, 3:11 PM
But Mike, in order for it to be hand-made shouldn't you dig up the iron ore with your bare hands, pound the chunks of iron into a bucket, process it in a hand-made smelter, and make the axe and your saw by hand, then go into the forest and cut down a tree.

But you can't do any of that, you're still using tools! You should be using your hands and nothing but your hands for everything!

Andrew Hughes
10-31-2015, 4:22 PM
Handmade or custom made have lost all power for me means nothing. There is a commercial that's runs out here about handgrown Avocados.As if someone is standing there while a Avocado grows in thier hand.What will advertisers thing of next handmade custom cows?

Mike Henderson
10-31-2015, 6:18 PM
But Mike, in order for it to be hand-made shouldn't you dig up the iron ore with your bare hands, pound the chunks of iron into a bucket, process it in a hand-made smelter, and make the axe and your saw by hand, then go into the forest and cut down a tree.

You make a good point. Of course, our ancestors who made the first copper tools (which preceded iron) did do that, perhaps with stone tools.:)

And that's a good example of why it's impossible to be totally "hand made". You're always starting from some form of machine made tools or supplies.

Mike

Brian Kent
10-31-2015, 6:28 PM
I put this question to my son as we walked around Renaissance Faire, looking at rustic objects. He reminded me that if you go far enough back, the tools that made the tools that made the tools were made by somebody's hands, do my definition everything machine made is ultimately hand made. I enjoy my son :)

Frederick Skelly
10-31-2015, 6:45 PM
Everything you've said here makes sense to me. Thanks for the insights, Brian!
Fred


I sure you're correct when you say it is mostly machine tools, however they are using handtools in many high end shops some of them are quite large (200 men). Short of a rare few that's about as close as I think you'll come to a 'handmade' factory product. I dont consider everything produced by a factory environment to be mass produced, I think mass production implies a scale at the level meant to stock the shelves of retail giants, but a factory (in my opinion) need not be massive.

Look at the work of Carl Hansen & Son, PP Mobler, Rud Rasmussen (i've seen recent video of these guys actually chopping dovetails in their shop), Elie Bleu tabletier, Hermes, Louis Vuitton (they make traditional luggage in the traditional method utilizing much hand work), Marunao. These companies are large enough to supply stock to many luxury retailers.

I dont fault anyone for producing using machine tools, one must earn a living and keep their factory working and so I certainly understand why many steps have been taken to maintain as much handmade quality as they can while speeding up process with certain machinery. However, if quality is the top priority then not all hand tasks can be eliminated, so what they will often do is minimize them to those key steps.

I was not pointing to your post in specific with my reply, more to the general sentiment of this thread.

jack forsberg
10-31-2015, 6:58 PM
You make a good point. Of course, our ancestors who made the first copper tools (which preceded iron) did do that, perhaps with stone tools.:)

And that's a good example of why it's impossible to be totally "hand made". You're always starting from some form of machine made tools or supplies.

Mike
not that impossible

https://primitivetechnology.wordpress.com/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCKkHqlx9dE

Roger Nair
10-31-2015, 11:57 PM
As a now retired timber framer, 20 years general carpentry followed by 25 years timber work, I claimed my frames were hand crafted, even though I used in part electric tools and nearly all the timber was sourced from sawmills. My mental reservation was, I carry the tools to the timber, not carry the timber to the tool and wield the tools by hand and guided by eye.

Matt Radtke
11-02-2015, 2:11 PM
I like the idea that Bob Rozaieski put forward. It's "hand made" when a human can screw it up. The example he used, which I think is perfect, was something to the effect of: "If you hook up a duplicator to your spring-poll lathe, it isn't hand made."

A curve cut on the bandsaw is as just as hand-made as one cut on bowsaw. You, the human, is driving the cut.

The posting I'm referring to is ' What is “Hand Made”?' from 2011.

John T Barker
11-02-2015, 2:23 PM
The real question is do you feel its hand made or not? If you made the piece tomorrow twice as fast and with quality as good as the first piece with more machine, does it mean anything in reality?

I put the question out for the forum to be a part of the discussion.

John T Barker
11-02-2015, 2:28 PM
I like the idea that Bob Rozaieski put forward. It's "hand made" when a human can screw it up. The example he used, which I think is perfect, was something to the effect of: "If you hook up a duplicator to your spring-poll lathe, it isn't hand made."

A curve cut on the bandsaw is as just as hand-made as one cut on bowsaw. You, the human, is driving the cut.

The posting I'm referring to is ' What is “Hand Made”?' from 2011.

So if a human screws up the programming on a CNC machine that completely makes all the pieces of a piece of furniture then we have a hand made piece?

John T Barker
11-02-2015, 2:41 PM
I would focus on the quality of the construction rather than whether someone wants to categorize it as handmade or not. The majority of what I have built over the last nearly thirty years has been constructed with good, sound joints (mortise and tenon and dovetails.) I've used mostly solid wood and have used plywood when it was necessary for the integrity of the piece (the bottom of a box within trapped sides.) I own most of the power tools (stationary and hand) we all use and I own a boatload of traditional hand tools. I have flattened and thickness boards by hand. All my dovetails are handcut and certainly fitted by hand. My tenons are fitted by hand. I consider the work I do to be good quality and I know I use my hands a lot. I would say that in this area (woodworking) there are terms that have changed over the years, like handmade and masterpiece. I believe those words can still be used but would not mean exactly what they did 200 years ago.

Frank Drackman
11-02-2015, 2:53 PM
I was talking to day with a furniture maker in town and he considered "hand" made anything where a power tool has not touched the wood from unfinished to finished product.

Is this correct?

In other words, if I make say, a wooden toy and use a scroll-saw and electric belt sander, etc to make it, can I label it "handmade in the USA" ?

IMO, that was answered by David Pye when he defined the Workmanship of Risk versus the Workmanship of Certainty.

Matt Radtke
11-02-2015, 3:10 PM
So if a human screws up the programming on a CNC machine that completely makes all the pieces of a piece of furniture then we have a hand made piece?

Heh. Read the rest of it.

If you, the worker, are holding the wood or tool and can influence the action right now to improve or ruin the work, it's likely hand made.

Clearly NOT Hand Made (imho): CNC. Lathe Duplicators.

Clearly Handmade: Hand sawn dovetails. Hand sawn tenons. Hand chiseled dovetails or mortises. Turned work where the turner is solely responsible for holding the tooling.

I like using the concept of "the workmanship of risk." In the above examples, CNC is entirely "workmanship or certainty." You will get exactly what you told the computer to spit out. Dovetails are entirely up the human and quintessential "workmanship of risk." (And just so we're clear, I'm not worshiping dovetails. They're just a perfect example for demonstrative purposes.)

Everything else, that's grey. And why you've started the thread. :)

If I must put some math on it, I'd break it down by part and then the risk/certainty of each part.

If you build a Shaker or Mission or Arts and Crafts table that consists of cutting parts to size at the table saw, cutting to length with stop blocks, tenons with a tenon jig, mortises with a mortiser and more stop blocks, I wouldn't call the thing hand made, though I don't know what the correct term would be. One-off-Manufactured? It's still likely very well made and better than the vast, vast majority of furniture for sale today. Calling back to the math I referenced above, I'd call each part 90 percent certain, 10 percent risk (owing entirely to feed rate and similar details), for a total of 90/10.

Cut those tenons at the band saw without a fence or other jig and, in my opinion, that same table would "improve" to 60/40 and be on the cusp of handmade. I put quotes around improve because something that is hand made isn't inherently better. In many ways, manufactured can be and is better...

Matt Mattingley
11-03-2015, 11:48 PM
One could argue that the space station was handmade. It was! A human hand and brain went into every part of it. There is not a robot out there that has not been and made. When there is an artificial life form that has the ability to reason , that's when I consider something no longer handmade. Were in trouble then!

Brian Holcombe
11-03-2015, 11:57 PM
For the love of god man!

Matteo Lorenzo
11-04-2015, 12:38 AM
even handtools are separating the skin from the lumber, are they not? so unless you use your fingernails to scrape, your palms to rub and your fingers to tear and squish the wood into submission, it is deviating from the face-value definition of that term.

i wouldnt worry about it. if you put your time, effort and skills into making it from start to finish, regardless of method, i think its fair to say its handmade. if you are worried about people questioning your techniques, supply an up-front description of how you achieve your work and there will be no need to explain further.