New Shop electrical problem

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Looks like the PO's ran 8 guage wire 98-100 feet to the shop and it's not enough to run the 220's I need for the Jet DC and Griz TS. I found out it will run $1050 to $1150 to rectify the situation with a new buried 2 ga. wire set (our code is 24" here in Texas), a new box and re-wiring it all.

This is also the cost of the new shop addition I was planning. Looks like I might have to sell the 220 saw and DC and go back to 110 tools if I want to expand the shop anytime soon. To go where I need to be in the coming years, I need more shop.

I am trying to specialize in deck building and use my shop for small furniture pieces to be marketed in Canton, Texas at 1st Monday in the coming months/years as well as furniture refinishing and hobby-business pursuits. The need for the big saw and rails has disappeared suddenly since we are getting out of the cabinet jobs. With the current power situation, I am covered as long as I don't try to add 220's to the mix.

So what would you guys & gals do?

[Jim O'Dell]

Kelly, how much would it cost if you did the digging, laying, and running the cable, and have the electrician do the hook up on each end? Have you done some work for an electrician in the past, especially one you did something a little extra for, that might be willing to help you out or barter for some other work? I think in the future you are going to want the power capability, and I sure hate to see someone give up on a nice TS. Good luck! Jim.

[Corey Hallagan]

Not sure about the DC, but would the new Craftsman 22124 saw with the biesmeyer fence work for you? Seems like a good option on the saw. Hybrid saw with great fence, not as much power as what you have but a little more than the standard contractor saw. Sorry to hear about your problem but I would trade down as well.

Corey

[Rob Russell]

Kelly,

What's the issue? #8 copper with a 40 amp/240v load over 100 feet has about 2.5% voltage drop. Not a problem. Even at a 60 amp load it's less than 4% voltage drop which is still acceptable.

Rob

[Michael Perata]

Kelly

Are you sure you can't use 8ga. The calculator link shows only a 1.92v drop in 100'.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm

Bob, beat my post.

[Chris Fite]

You could consider what I did when I moved here with a separate garage to use as a shop. It is detached. I called the power company and asked to have a separate service installed since the building technically had no power. Although you may not need it, the company set a pole and laid 200 feet of underground to the building. Cost to me? Zero. I have a separate meter, so I know how much it costs to run everything. If you could deal with the code and service panel installation concerns, this might be a solution.

Hope this helps.

[Andrew Ault]

Is it possible to pull another conductor through the existing conduit?

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Jim....

That's the cost with a buddy deal and a trench dug by me. I can';t imagine getting a better price on it, but I will call in a cpouple of other bids and see what the range entails.

Corey...

That thought has already crossed the old noggin. I know it's a great saw and it takes up a whole lot less space than mine. I will explore ALL other options if the answer lies in a replacement saw. I never expected to sell this one, but it was bought as a right tilter to use the sliding table, which didn't work out. I am much more comfortable with the left tilt as I mostly use my contractor saw for ripping at an angle. I have to do this on most of my decks at one point or another, usually making thresholds or transtitions.

I can also see the upgrade happening someday, but why wait for that when I can enlarge it instead and get me what I really need which is more space?

Andrew....

I've been told the conduit might not even exist. We could not find one...might be just a buried wire.

Chris...

I might just explore that option....what voltage drop did you get?

[Rob Russell]

Kelly,

Why do you think that you have a power issue? Are you having a problem running the machines?

Rob

[Kelly C. Hanna]

When I start my 'new' 1975 Craftsman TS, the lights dim. Even starting smaller tools gets a flicker or two. The electrician is a friend of mine and he came out to evaluate my system. Seems I am the fourth house on a five house 'drop' from the transformer....not good in other words. Also they wired it so that the shop and the house both pull off the same side (whatever that means), but he reversed that and now it's better. Only problem is that to get what I want, I have to upgrade the wiring or get a new drop. Our's might not be free, but I will be checking soon.

[Corey Hallagan]

Kelly, if you do end up going the new saw route and are checking out saw options, don't judge the Craftsman by what it looks like in the stores. All that I have seen look like junk cause the yahoos that set them up in the stores did horrible jobs of it. Panels aren't lined up, tables are a mess etc. The ones that I have seen in stores look nothing like the ones members of this site and others do after they have assembled and set it up. Members Scott Spencer and Tom Pritchard here both have beautiful saws from what I have seen.

Corey

[Chris Fite]

I don't have a voltage drop. This is a new service from the street to the garage. I had a 100 amp service panel installed, but could have had 200 amps if needed. When I built my new shop next to the garage, I had a 90 amp sub-panel installed in it from the one in the garage.

[Dale Critchlow]

Kelly: I don't think you have a problem. Power is the product of voltage times current. Therefore, 220V requires one half the current for a given horsepower as 110V. You would need larger wire for 110V than for 220V.

Dale Critchlow

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Kelly: I don't think you have a problem. Power is the product of voltage times current. Therefore, 220V requires one half the current for a given horsepower as 110V. You would need larger wire for 110V than for 220V.

Dale Critchlow

Dale....it takes TWO 110's to make 220...albeit the same size wire will usually do, ya just need two of 'em....each side of the plug takes a positive instead of the normal one per plug. It's really not half...just spread out between two 110 legs. I'm no electrician...maybe someone else can explain it better, but it all comes down to start up amps. If my 15 amp Craftsman is pulling enough to lower the lights, what would 18-20 amps do? Consider the two 40 amp breakers that feed this shop over 100 foot of 8 ga wire. The guy that talked to me about this is a master electrician. Short of a new drop (and I think they cost money here in Texas), I doubt the system can handle my two 220v tools efficiently and without incident.

[Bill Fields]

Dale:

PLEASE get another electician's opinion. I'm not an electrician either--but I am an Electrical Engineer. Power was not my specialty.

#8 wire would IMHO be more than sufficient to support 30-35 amps 220V---

Yes there would be some losses over that length of cable--but not enough such that you couldn't start each machine seperately. It's usually the start-up amps that will overheat cable/break breakers. etc.

BILL FIELDS

[Randy Meijer]

It must have been way too late last night when I posted on this subject. What I wrote was half true and half "GARBAGE!!" Can't imagine what I was thinking when I wrote some of that stuff. My most sincere apology for misleading anyone!! I see that a number of additional posts have been made which I will take a look at. They may very well have fully covered the subject and it may not require any additional comments from me.

[Bill Lewis]

Well, Randy beat me to it. A 1.5 hp 120V motor will have the same pull down on startup that a 3 hp 240V motor would, so I couldn't understand why going to a 120V saw would be a benefit.

[Mike Cutler]

Kelly. Something is wrong. You have more than enough ampacity in the 8 AWG to run two 220 loads at the same time.
The only way that running 2 awg will correct the problem is if the fault is in the 8 AWG run.
How many lights are there in the shop? Are you trying to run an AC unit concurrently?
If I could suggest a few things to check.
Have the electrician friend check the 220 feed into the sub panel, and make sure that you have the proper voltage.
Check both sides to ground and ensure that the sub panel is bonded properly.
Use a clamp on ammeter and monitor the current feeding the panel when the loads are running. Look for abnormal drops.
Monitor the current of the individual circuit branch(s) when the machines are running, and at start up, once again looking for abnormalities.
You can monitor the incoming volts and current at the main panel also to look for abnormalities.
The situation with the pole, usually manifests itself more with 3 phase 480, and 240 loads in industrial applications. The transformer has a current balancing control device to ensure that the phase cuurents are equally balanced. If the transformer on the pole is supplying 3 phase, and is also being tapped to provide a single phase of 220 to the residential applications, this may be a problem also, but with the utility.
Look for some previous " Homeowner improvements" in the main panel. I would test the feeder breaker and make sure that both sides are supplying equally, and that the breaker has no internal faults in the case.
My guess right now is that you have some form of a fault in your system.
The components should be capable of performing what you are asking them to do.

[Mike Mastin]

...there are other issues that heavier wire will not fix IMO. Sounds like that you are not getting the proper run into the main box from the power company to me. If you are only running 60 AMP service, 8 gauge should be OK(I would use 6 or 4 gauge) but definitely not a show stopper. I don't see how a saw can dim the lights unless there is some issue with the power to your main breaker panel. Something is not right somewhere it sounds like to me.

[Michael Gabbay]

Kelly - I'm not an electrician and I have not slept at a Holiday Inn lately :D , but something seems fishy... I would have the electrician or power company survey your feeder lines and panels to see if there are more basic issues that other's have mentioned. Also, if you are running the shop off of the main house panel and all you are asking the electrician to do is the hook up then $1000+ is waaaaaay tooooo high! I had an electrician do the hook up of my subpanel for under $300 (that's Northern VA pricing $$$). I ran the wire he worked off a hot main panel :eek: . DON"T TRY THAT AT HOME!Mike

[Ralph Barhorst]

I also think that you should get another opinion. I am also an electrical engineer and I have experience in high power.

More than likely your problem is not with the #8 wire but with the transformer and the wiring that feeds the five houses. If possible get a voltmeter or hook up a light on the feed side of the 100 foot run. You will probably see the voltage drop at that point. If so, then changing the wire size will have little effect.

I had a similar problem in a house that I used to live in. I installed air-conditioning and whenever it kicked on all the lights dimmed. The power company installed a line monitor and found that the voltage dropped below 200 volts whenever the air-conditioner kicked on. They installed a larger transformer free of charge.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Mr. Mastin. Prior to upgrading the service to our house and shop a couple years ago, I only had 8 guage and 50 amps to the shop. Ran two 240v tools (including the cyclone) concurrently with no problem, other than a slight dim of the lights on startup of the Jet LT Cabinet Saw...which can still happen sometimes with the 200 amp service since the issue is the feed from the street now, not the on-property wiring.

Sacrificing 240 isn't going to hurt you too bad in the saw department (other than having to buy a new saw or change the motor to a 1.5hp unit) but it's a bad thing relative to the DC...you want to keep that on 220v 'cause you need a system that can move air. The smaller 120v units just don't cut the mustard in that respect.

[Dev Emch]

Holly Cow Kelly...
Your in a similar boat as I am. You want the front or the back seat?:rolleyes: At least you only have to run about 100 feet which helps.

The price you talked about sounds very high. In general the problem breaks into two distinct issues. 1). Rated current voltage drops. 2). A true soft service.

Condition 1 will only occur if you pull the full load. The more amps the more the drop. As much as I dont like drops, you may be able to live with it a bit. The second condition is what was beginning to kill me and may have had an influence on pulling my line down. During heavy duty motor start ups, esp. on three phase phase converter applications, the start up current is so high and the wire so thin and long, that it actually pulls the voltage down. This causes the start up window to expand and the drop in volts causes an increase in start up amp draw. It is a nasty circle. Eventually, the heaters or overload relays on the machine trip and everything stops. This condition can be caused by one or both of two causes. First of all, your rotary phase converter is not larger enough to handle the start up. Here, the drop occurs on those triangle legs attached to the L3 or wild leg (i.e. L1-L3 and L2-L3). The L1 -L2 leg is driven off the grid and should remain stable. The other cause is if the L1-L2 leg drops. This is the classic soft service and most of these soft service issues are caused by folks having to long a run to the shop using wire that is not ample enough for the task.

Personally, I would consider doing as much as you can on your own. Call up your local electrical supply outfits and and ask them about costs. Price out THHN cable and maybe the Alumiunum stuff talked about under my other post regarding a similar problem. Also ask them on pricing for the PVC sched 40 and 80 conduit.

One advantage of having to dig my ditch by hand is that the money saved is going to the electrical house for conduit and wire. My total electrical bill for a 200 foot run using 2/0 or 3/0 wire is less than half of your estimate.

Also guys, listen up. In every big city you will find places that sell used electrical gear. These are panels and stuff removed from buildings being modified or torn down. You can find all sorts of stuff including motor starters in some cases. But service panels and breakers etc. can be found here for much less than new. Also find out where the electrical guys go to buy and see if you can go there. Always haggle the price. At least question the price. Often you can get a better deal.

Do as much of the work as you can. Ask your buddies and others with a bit more experience than you if needed. Read up some books on wiring homes, etc. We are under the NEC so I heep a copy of it on my desk and its dog earred!

I dont know where you live but one of the nicest homes in my neighborhood belongs to an electrical contractor. That should tell you about how much he charges! So go back and review every penny on that estimate and try to work somthing else out.

By the way, you did not tell us if you have a conduit in ground as it stands. Could be you have direct burrial and hopefully you dont have 8 gage THNN burried on its own.

Good Luck...

[Von Bickley]

Kelly,
I agree with some of the other guys about getting a second opinion. I did electrical work for over 25 years (certified electrician) and you should not be having a problem with #8 wire... :rolleyes:

[Don Baer]

Don't take this as gospel. This is just off the top of my head but should give you the general idea. Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

Thought I might clear up a few things about what 220VAC is. 220 is made from two 110V sign waves(in relation to netural) that are 180 degrees out of phase to each other. SP

Sorry to have to correct you Sparky but 1 phase means just what it says single phase other wise it would be called double phase.

you are correct when you say that the 220 is the RMS Value.

[Randy Meijer]

...Most breaker boxes alternate which phase you are hooking to in each slot that is why a 220v breaker spans two slots, that is so it picks up both phases. What we call 220V single phase is actually 2 signals (2 Hots) 180 degrees apart. 3 phase is 3 signals (3 hots) 60 degrees apart.(which is about all I know about 3 phase!). Where I have done some work in Mexico they call single phase "2 phase". This is probably more than any of you wanted to know (and less than some already knew)...

I always thought in 3 phase power that the phases were 120° apart???

Sparky never said there was such a thing as 2 phase power, just that 220 was"called" 2 phase in Mexico. I think that is also true for Canada and Europe??

[Randy Meijer]

We really need to wait for Kelly to get back to us on this one. If he has a 3 HP motor on his saw "AND" on his DC, he is getting close to the full capicty of, if not exceeding, the capacity of his current 8 gauge, 40 amp shop wiring. Maybe his electrician is correct in his analysis

[Mike Cutler]

Sparky, you have it correct. If you hook up a two channel O-Scope to the staves in the main panel, and reference each side to neutral you most assuredly will get two seperate waveforms, out of sync with each other. We're still debating here at work wheter it is 120 or a nominal 180 out of sync( You'd think that the guys that make the power would know, huh..:rolleyes:) We may call the linemnan tommorrow to ask.
Conventional terminology refers to it as "Single Phase". I didn't make the rules, that's just the lingo. I think the differing opinion is based on the semantics that there truly aren't "two" seperate phases, ie. A-B, and B-C, but rather that the two sides of a given phase, ie ,A-C are both being referenced to a single, shared neutral.
Given that the phases are 120 out, I would expect that the two sides of any single phase when referenced to a shared, common neutral would be 180. Maybe I don't need to call the lineman tommorrow, eh..
3 phase is exactly that 3 seperate phases 120deg apart. In a typical "Y" connected transformer each of the seperate phases is isolated. The resultant transformer output to the residential loads would be so many on "A"to "B". so many on "B" to "C", and so many on "A to "C". Each of these seperate phases is referenced to a common "Neutral" on the transformer.
Additionally there will be some form of current balancing network to balance the phase to phase and the phases.
None of this really helps Kelly though.

In Dev's example "Condition 1" We call that "Making your own Fuse". I saw a 50 foot length of 12/3(stranded) turn into a Roman Candle and then start on fire in the air. Someone had made their own extension cord. to run an electric chainfall up over a motor platform. After the smoke cleared it was kinda funny, but it destroyed a $5000 dollar chainfall and load cell.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Sparky hit the nail on the head, the ground is way too small for the 8ga wires. We reversed the two hot leads and got a better startup with less flicker, but the house itself is the 5th of 6 houses drawing power from the pole. Without a major upgrade, I am not going to get any better power to the house or the shop.

My buddy checked with all the instruments in his bag of tricks. He has nothing to gain financially as he actually owes me a few days work and a bunch of buddy favors. I have called in another guy and he said the same thing except for the drop to the house...he said there's six houses off the one transformer and I am the fifth in the chain. The drop from the wire out front is smaller than it should be, but not too small to continue what I already have going. I was number one from the transformer on Santa Cruz....if I could just get that setup over here!!

The current 40amp double breaker and wiring to the shop will not support [2] 2-3 hp machines on [2] 220's on at the same time according to both of them without taxing the system heavily. The start up amps would peak about where you guys said it would for each machine...right now I am pegging about 70 or so at start up on the 120v saw. They both told me it would have to be rewired to accomodate my present and future needs given the current machines.

I talked to the wife and she agreed, the Griz and Jet DC will go on ebay tonite. Much as I hate to give up that nice saw and DC unit, I know I can get a replacement for them rather easily and have money left over to save for the expansion.

Thanks to everyone for their wonderful suggestions and ideas. I love this forum for the huge knowledge base. It's just that we're dealing with a system that was wired in 1973 and a small town to boot.

[Rob Russell]

Why not hang on to the DC, run it off of the 240v and keep your current table saw? At least that way you'd have the health protection of the DC. You could rig up a way to collect from your old saw.

[Randy Meijer]

You are going to take a financial hit by selling you existing tools and buying new ones. Have you thought about running the shop and just one 220 machine off the existing circuit and running another smaller circuit...maybe a 10 gauge 30 amp one....to run the other 220 tool??

[Jim Becker]

Kelly...it's not pretty, but you could do overhead from the house to the shop. No digging and quick installation.

[CPeter James]

I run my shop about 150' from the main breaker box in the house on a 60 amp breaker. I have a PM66 3hp, a 1 1/2 hp Oneida DC, a DJ20 jointer and a Dewalt 708 Chop saw that is 15 amps. On occasion, I have all running at the same time when I am processing new lumber. No problems. I wonder if you don't have a bad connection somewhere?

BTW, if you have a 220V subpanel, you should have four (4) wires from the main according to the NEC. Two hot, one neutral, and a separate ground. Also, the neutral buss is NOT tied to the ground at the subpanel. The ground buss and Neutral buss are only tied together at the main panel.

As was stated earlier, load on any machine is half at 220V vs. 110V. total wattage is the same, so doubling the voltage halves the amperage. Voltage drop in the wire is caused amperage. All other things considered equal, you could run a 3 hp saw at 220V on the same amperage as a 1 1/2 hp saw at 110V. I really do think that you may have a problem other than the wire size. This isn't aluminum wire is it?

As mentioned above, this is the time for a second opinion. I am a retired Telco engineer that worked hand in hand with power co engineers on line design and entrance facilities and have some experience in this area for what that is worth.

CPeter

[Bartee Lamar]

Have you talked to the Power Company. They WANT to sell you power. They should be providing adequate power, so maybe you can work a deal for a new drop to the shop at some very reduced rate. It's just a thought and I am SURE you are tired of thinking about all this....

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I am very tired of thinking about everything. I am faced with $3.50 a gallon soon (and it might go higher before it levels off) after moving 30 miles east of work with a truck that hauls big lumber, but costs a ton to run (10mpg) as well as the upgrades, the market for building decks during a crisis that will last for months, etc. Right now $750 (me buying and running everything myself) or $1350-$1500 (someone else doing it) is a large amount to spend to run the current machines. I could sell both and get a small DC for $150 that I could move around to each tool when I need it. I have a nice collection of tools that will do me fine without buying anything more than a 12.5" planer and I can get one of those fairly cheap.

I could ask for another opinion (I have two concurring ones already), but there's no way I can afford any upgrades at this point. Right now I have unusable space in my little shop, which may remain small at the rate things are going. I have no cash for upgrades since the old house hasn't even gotten a looker. I know I have electrical problems for running 220's out in the shop...(the ones in the house run fine), but I don't have any serious problems running a couple more 110v tools.

So as ugly as it may seem to you guys, I think my best option right now is to downsize and try and keep heads above water. Unless the local power company will drop me a new 100 amp line out back for free and hooks everything up (and I will call tomorrow and ask), it's not happening.

[Jerry Clark]

Hang in there Kelly-- things will get better-:) - We are on your side! :D

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Rick, he doesn't call himself a master electrician, his clients do. You forget I know this person....it's not like you percieve at all. If you had seen him walk the lines and talk about how the power came into my house, you'd know. I have dealt with many electricians in my time...more than most of you ever will. This one is not a bogus representation of the real thing. Not sure about the second guy, just know he doesn't know my friend. 2 opinions is the norm and I'm goin' with it.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

You don't think the electrician's brought over instruments to measure the power?

You have not read the whole thread....especially not my posts. The 220v saw is not even hooked up yet...there are no 220's present in the shop.

I'd love to hear what you have to say IF you read and comment on what's already been written. We're not just typing away without regard. You cannot dismiss SMC member's posts like that...especially since you just popped on here recently.


Thanks Jerry!! I sure hope so!

[Dan Forman]

Kelly---No advice here, just hope you get some good news from the power company and can find a way to work things out while keeping your present tools. Sounds like the stress level must be WAY up there. Take care of yourself through all of this.

Dan

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Thanks Dan...the stress is there, but I am hangin' in there!

[Mike Cutler]

Easy does it there Rick.
I've read your site, and the basic shop electrical primer that you have. You have a very informative site, and your write up is excellent.
It's difficult to help troubleshoot an electrical problem over the net. At work, it would have taken me no time at all to isolate the problem, but I do this everyday, for a living.
It doesn't help Kelley to come off heavy handed and chastise people that are genuinely trying to help.
If you could write up a step by step troubleshooting plan, that his friends could follow, to more completely isolate the problem, that would have been more helpful.
I agree that the root cause will still exist, and may cause other problems down the line. Kelly stated that the electrical infrastructure in his area is rather outdated. I t could be that 30+ year old neglect and practices are a contributing cause.
From the feedback information that Kelley has provided. My next course of action would be meggering, and TDR'ing, these are not skills I would expect a resisential liscense to be experienced at. This however would require that all of Kelley's power be disconnnected at the main. The same thing could be accomplished by moving loads around in the panel, and further isolating the problem. Once again though, not something I would expect of a residential liscense.
As he has stated, he is not financially able to support further troubleshooting efforts, and associated potential repair efforts..
I agree with you that most likely cause is a "faulty connection" somewhere. It's just a matter of isolating it to a common mode fault

We share one DPO, Difference of Professional Opinion. The supply from the pole can be a potential fault, not the sole fault but part of the problem. I would expected to have had additional problems with all the house circuits if this was the sole problem.

Kelley. I can be reached thru the Arch Pager system www.arch.com. My number to page is 8605040307. I would be happy to help out and offer more suggestions to your friend on potential faults.
The power leaves our hands at 345KV, so sometimes we don't think about 220, but I have an entire electrical engineering department, and bunch of "sparkies" to bounce info off.

Take care, and try not to stress to much.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Thanks Mike. I should have mentioned that Jason is a commercial electrician. He doesn't work a whole lot in residential anymore, but knows his stuff. We turned of the power and he checked the connections at both boxes, but blames the smaller ground wire as well as the 8ga wires. The way he explained it, the new drop would eliminate the problems easily, but I can't afford that right now. I am auctioning off both the Jet DC and the Griz cab saw so that I can replace both with less expensive machines. This will allow me to continue the 'plan' at hand. I am not going to be working much with big projects anymore, so the downsizing makes more sense.

I am not giving up on the upgrade. Eventually the shop WILL get rewired and 'redropped'. It's just crazy to try and do that right now when gas is killing me and I have a show to get ready for in Dallas. Making this choice wasn't easy, but it does make a lot of sense to the both of us.

Mike, thanks, I might just call you after I get the third opinion (I got the number of an electrician who has worked in Terrell all his life).

[Ed Blough]

Kelly

Everyone's an expert and has advice to offer. From the sound of it your problem is a combination of situations. Each one plays upon the other to effect the out come. Technically if everything was perfect your existing wiring would "just" work but in your case everything is perfect. From what you said about this electrician I would take his advice and ignore the rest of the experts.

As for replacing your 220 gear with 110 units, sounds like a plan for your situation at this moment. I know you liked that Grizzly but from what you said you need to be up and running far more than you need the extra power.

Hang in there and don't let all the "experts" confuse the situation more than it is already. Don't let all of this dampen your excitement with your new home and shop.

[Steve Aiken]

Rick, he doesn't call himself a master electrician, his clients do. You forget I know this person....it's not like you percieve at all. If you had seen him walk the lines and talk about how the power came into my house, you'd know. I have dealt with many electricians in my time...more than most of you ever will. This one is not a bogus representation of the real thing. Not sure about the second guy, just know he doesn't know my friend. 2 opinions is the norm and I'm goin' with it.

Was a post deleted? I don't see any posts by "Rick."

Steve

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Looks that way Steve. He came on very strong to people who are just trying to help me muddle through this thing. There was no call for the way he posted.

Sage advice Ed and I will take it to heart. This is not an easy thing to do. I had dreamed of a saw like the one I have for years. I do know that someday soon I will be able to get the necessary upgrades taken care of.

[Steve Clardy]

Must be the shape of the moon or something.

[Rick Christopherson]

Yes, I deleted my posting because seeing it in the morning I realized how inappropriate and unjustified the tone was. It was late at night and I was mentally fatigued when I wrote it. I apologize for that and I was quite off-base.

On a personal level, it really bothers me to hear that someone is selling their tools for lack of power when the infrastructure appears to be in place. Either there is a huge piece of information missing here, or you are being misinformed.

I rarely post to any of the woodworking forums any more. When I do, it is usually due to seeing misinformation. I still have some grave concerns about your situation.
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Here are some of my observations:

If the other high-power loads within the house are not causing the lights to dim (I believe I read that somewhere) then the root cause is not upstream. This tends to indicate that the feeder system (including the other 5 houses) is not the primary problem with the outbuilding.

A posting that was deleted before I entered this thread must have said something about the Ground being too small. I assume this was actually referring to the Neutral, because a ground would not cause this.

A) If the Neutral is too small, then you actually want to switch over to 240 volt tools, not back down to 120 volt tools.

B) If it is in fact the "Ground" wire that is too small, it wouldn't cause these symptoms. Nonetheless, because this is an outbuilding, there are simple ways around this problem (I need more info to explain how).
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Two of your postings appear to contradict themselves. In one posting you say the electricians both told you the feeding system is max'd out "as-is". Then they tell you that adding #2 conductor to the outbuilding will fix this. If the feeding system (your main load center) is max'd out, then adding the #2 cable will make it even more max'd out, not fix it. This is a significant contradiction.
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I am quite sure that I don't have all of the information, but I have enough to raise some red flags about this. Obviously from one of your postings, you don't know me. However, I have a well known reputation (good or bad) of seeking out misinformation.

If you knew my reputation and knew how much time I have spent researching your specific problem, you would rightfully be having some second thoughts about this too (I don't normally spend this much time on a single problem).
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1) What are the total number of wires (and sizes) going to the outbuilding?
2) What tools are currently in the outbuilding and/or planned for the outbuilding?
3) What type of load center is in the outbuilding?
4) Regarding the overloaded Ground system, do you have any telephone, water pipes, or other conductors between the two buildings?

Your electricians may not know this, but even if your Neutral was undersized for the two #8 phase wires, you can still legally make it work with the right configuration. I can explain this, but I need some information first.

The bottom line is that you definitely need to have someone else look at this. I mean no disrespect, but I have personally encountered both electricians and even state inspectors that are not fully comprehensive on this type of problem. Their word should not be considered final.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I understand Rick, but at this point it's a moot discussion. The shop will live with it's current configuration for the next few months at least. Just for the sake of finding out where the problem may be, the wires are 8ga excpet for the neutral which is 14ga. the power wires were buried in 1973 with his first shop. The fuse is a 40 amp from a 100 amp box. The service runs around 65-70 amps from the pole. The house has no big drawing appliances (we're getting a stove today and that will be the only 220 besides the dryer). Nothing dims when the dryer goes on.

In the shop we have a sliding miter saw at 15 amps, a TS at 14, a bandsaw at 13, a compressor at 15 amps and a jointer at 15 amps...all 110v. I plan on adding a DC system and a planer (all at or under 15 amps).

The box in the shop is a 100 amp GE unit just like inside the house. There should be nothing else between the house and the shop except the direct TV line we just ran.

[Rob Russell]

Kelly, adding the information that your "neutral" is #14 is an important piece of info. FYI, the "neutral" is properly called the "grounded" conductor - not be confused with the "grounding (Equipment Grounding)" conductor.

Anyway, on a 120v circuit, the neutral/grounded conductor carries as much current as the hot conductor. That effectively means that you're trying to start your saw through #14 wire, run 100 feet. According to the online voltage calculators, that will mean a 6%+ voltage drop and is why you're dimming the lights in the house when you start the saw. The basic issue is that the #14 neutral/grounded conductor is choking your ability to draw adequate startup current.

So - what do you do about it?

The best thing to do is run a #8 neutral/grounded conductor from your house to the shop. That will allow you to start any of your 120v motor loads with significantly less problem than you have now. You might see the lights blink, but that would be no different than if you plugged a chop saw into a receptacle in the house and turned it on.

I'd also stay with the 240v equipment you have. A 240v motor doesn't use the neutral/grounded conductor at all. If the only loads you had in the shop were 240v, you'd have never seen this problem.

This should be good news. You can run a new neutral inexpensively, by yourself or with the help of your buddies. You don't need to sell the 240v machines - they should work just fine.

Rob

[Rick Christopherson]

Now we're getting somewhere, and everything is making sense. First off, don't get rid of the larger tools. As Rob already pointed out, they don't use the undersized Neutral.

I normally tell people not to rewire their 120/240 volt tools to 240, but yours is the prime example of when it should be done. You will probably discover that your compressor, old tablesaw, jointer, and possibly the bandsaw can be reconfigured for 240 volts. If so, then you should do it. Anything that you can remove from the Neutral will help you out.

Secondly, you also want to balance the load of the remaining 120 volt equipment. Most people don't realize that the current through the Neutral is not the mathematical sum of the total current. It's probably best to describe this by example:

1) If you have 15 amps through phase A and 10 amps through phase B, then the total current in the shared Neutral is only 5 amps (not 25).

2) in the extreme case where you were maxing out the 40 amp circuit breakers on both phases, you would actually have zero current in the Neutral.
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You do have one problem, and this is what I elluded too in my previous posting. No matter what you do (even if you do nothing) you can potentially exceed the capacity of your Neutral. Normally the Neutral is protected by the circuit breakers on the hot-legs, but in your case, these breakers are too large for the 14 ga wire. To be truely safe, you should find some way to install a circuit breaker on the Neutral.
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P.S. Rob, While it is technically correct to refer to the Neutral as the Grounded conductor, it adds needless confusion. I think this is the reason why Kelly originally stated that his "Ground" wire was too small. The terms "Grounded" and "Grounding" are too similar, and I ussually suggest to people not to use them on the internet forums.

[Ed Blough]

Kelly, adding the information that your "neutral" is #14 is an important piece of info. FYI, the "neutral" is properly called the "grounded" conductor - not be confused with the "grounding (Equipment Grounding)" conductor.

Anyway, on a 120v circuit, the neutral/grounded conductor carries as much current as the hot conductor. That effectively means that you're trying to start your saw through #14 wire, run 100 feet. According to the online voltage calculators, that will mean a 6%+ voltage drop and is why you're dimming the lights in the house when you start the saw. The basic issue is that the #14 neutral/grounded conductor is choking your ability to draw adequate startup current.

So - what do you do about it?

The best thing to do is run a #8 neutral/grounded conductor from your house to the shop. That will allow you to start any of your 120v motor loads with significantly less problem than you have now. You might see the lights blink, but that would be no different than if you plugged a chop saw into a receptacle in the house and turned it on.

I'd also stay with the 240v equipment you have. A 240v motor doesn't use the neutral/grounded conductor at all. If the only loads you had in the shop were 240v, you'd have never seen this problem.

This should be good news. You can run a new neutral inexpensively, by yourself or with the help of your buddies. You don't need to sell the 240v machines - they should work just fine.

Rob

Kelly
With the additional information about the 14 guage neutral I agree with everything Rob said with two exceptions.

One: Adding more 110v machines is just going to make the existing situation worst.

Two; If your going to replace the neutral and go to all the bother of digging and all I would add up all my amperage needs and insure the 8 gauge will handle it. You said the your saw drew 20 amps and the DC another 15 right there is 35 amps not counting lights and such, so 8 gauge may be a little light. Especially figuring you probably have air conditioning out there also.

I don't see a need to rewire your house box at all. The panel in the shop would have to be wired to provide for all existing 110 circuits, which is already done, and to add some 220. If the trench was dug and the wire on site and you placed and ran wire to the 220 circuits around the shop any electrician could wire the connections for you in an about hour’s time.
Ed

[Randy Meijer]

Since money is the big issue here, couldn't you just run another neutral....a big one...to the shop overhead like someone suggested previously?? Might not be pretty; but would be an inexpensive alternative in the short term. Would something like that be permitted by the electrical code?? Kelly could do most of the work himself and just pay an electrician to hook it up at each end.

[Mike Cutler]

A 14 awg neutral return??!! :mad: Nice choke that they made for you. I think as Rick and Rob stated Kelly, you may have just found your smoking gun. Nice pickup Rob, very nice pickup.
Rick I agree about the " ground, grounded,grounding" terminology. It can cause some real confusion.
Kelly I hope everything works out for you. I think you are well on your way to an inexpensive resolution, at least temporarily.

[Rob Russell]

Kelly I hope everything works out for you. I think you are well on your way to an inexpensive resolution, at least temporarily.

If Kelly upgrades the neutral to a #8, it is a permanent fix. Nothing else is really required.

I hope that this was run in conduit because the conductors are individual conductors (hope they're not direct buried). If conduit was run, you may be able to just pull a new #8 conductor.

If the conductors were just direct buried, it'll be a little more expensive because you'd need to find a single conductor that's rated for direct burial, if they're available. More work too, because you'll have to dig.

Anyway, fixing this should be under $100.

Rob

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I want to do this right. I know a new neutral would help fix it, but I want to upgrade both the house and the shop to 200 amp service with 2 new drops (1 to the shop). I know how much it will run and I'm prepared to wait to do it.

I don't have $100 to put into this right now nor the time to dig a new trench 95 feet. I also found out today that the wires are just buried (per the previous owner)...no conduit, so pulling a new wire through isn't an option. I also know that I want the shop to have it's own drop, not a cobbled up #8 from the 40 amp fuses in the house box.

I appreciate all the advice on how to fix what I have, but being a perfectionist, I have to do this right. I don't want to keep the current 220 tools until I can get this done when I can sell them and have some cash to help me with the home show. I need a laptop in the worst way.

So now let's shift to the future. I will be digging a whole new ditch for buried lines to the shop. It will have it's own box and meter right beside then new one for the house. From that box, is #2 wire enough? What exactly do I ask for and how much can I expect to pay (if I bought it right now)?

I know to bury it in conduit and will be doing that. The new lines will go into the addition that I hope to build next month and then that box will feed the other one that's in the shop now. in the new box in the shop, I will have enough room and wire capacity. I assume I'll be sticking with #2 wire from box to box right?

Once the 220's are in, then the process gets reversed. I want one of these (http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=36-L31X-U50&LARGEVIEW=ON) with the Beis fence...

The other detail is the DC. I will be asking advice of all of you who own cyclones as to what to look for and how much it will cost. I look forward to not being hindered by limits in disposable shop income soon. This H&G show should produce a ton of interest which in turn should produce a lot of jobs in the field we want to specialize in.

I alos hope to add a lathe, planer, air exchanger, AC, and a few other tools down the road. I think this 2 year plan will serve me better than getting the cobbled up system to work with the current tools.

I expect big things out of this and subsequent shows. I know one deck and fence builder who books 8 months of his year through this very show. I will likely be here until very late in life if not for the remainder. I want this to be done the right way from square one. Knowing this I have decided to go top shelf on the shop. Anyone think I'm nuts?

[Roy Wall]

Kelly,

I just purchased a 2hp Oneida Gorilla cyclone........with shipping is was $1050. Another $350 in ductwork /gates/etc.. will allow me two - three machine ports. The Gorilla will handle two machines at once.

I considered the 2hp Oneida Component system which was $100 less, but would be shaky at best running two machines at once. Now - I have room to grow.

Should be up to speed in another week - I'm waiting on the ductwork....

Talk to Oneida about your needs and they will help you...they have been good to me....

I chose them over the Griz and Penn State.......

I too, am adding a 60 amp subpanel out in my garage to handle the cyclone & TS & a future machine.... so I"ve got lots of upgrades before I can get running - but I"m close!! 1-2 weeks more at most!:)

[Rob Russell]

So now let's shift to the future. I will be digging a whole new ditch for buried lines to the shop. It will have it's own box and meter right beside then new one for the house. From that box, is #2 wire enough? What exactly do I ask for and how much can I expect to pay (if I bought it right now)?


Before we can answer the question of what gauge conductor to buy, you need to specify what the amperage will be that you size this for. Will you go with 60 amps? 100 amps?

Is there a specific reason you want a separate meter? Is your intent to itemize all of the power used in the shop as a business expense? If not, I wouldn't spend the money on a separate meter. I'd also look into a "landlord" type of meter setup, where a single drop comes in to the main meter and there is a secondary meter run off of that. Might be cheaper - I'd talk with the power company about their policies and rate structure.

Rob

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Bob,

I want 200 amp service to the house and shop. I am open to how it is done. Yes the shop is not a hobby shop by any stretch. I intend to treat it accordingly at tax time.

[Mike Cutler]

No Kelly. I don't think that you are nuts.
To strive to obtain a dream is always a worthwhile endeavor.
For the electrical situation at hand though, Talk to your friend with the commercial/residential liscense. Now that we have the confusion of ground vs neutral straightened out, he had the answer right away, just a difference in terminology caused some confusion. I'd ask him what he would recommend, because he is more familiar with the code requirements in your area, and the actual specific circumstances at your residence.

Good Luck with the upcomong show.

[Rob Russell]

Bob,

I want 200 amp service to the house and shop. I am open to how it is done. Yes the shop is not a hobby shop by any stretch. I intend to treat it accordingly at tax time.

Kelly,

For 200 amp service, you'd need to run either 2/0 copper or 4/0 aluminum [table 310.15(B)(6) if they let you call this a residential service or use table 310.16/75 degree column + sections 240.4(B) and 240.6]. I checked the voltage drop with one of the online voltage drop calculators and even carrying 160 amps at 120v (assumes you plugged in every 120v tool you could find onto the same half of your shop panel and loaded the thing up to 80% of 200 amps), the voltage drop is still only 2.8% over 120 feet. That means you don't need to worry about upsizing your conductors any further because of voltage drop. I'll bet you find the 4/0 aluminum is significantly cheaper than the copper. The Equipment Grounding Conductor can be as small as a #6 copper or #4 aluminum [table 250.122], although personally I'd run the same size as the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC). The GEC you'll need is #4 copper or #2 aluminum [table 250.66]. I added the 2005 NEC references in case you want to see where this information came from.

In terms of your immediate problem, since you really don't want to spend any $ to fix the problem until you completely rewire - I'd convert your shop's panel to a 120v subpanel. Drop the #14 neutral and use the (2) #8 conductors to run a 120v panel. That means you won't be able to run a 240v machine in the shop, but that's apparently not your highest priority right now. I would specifically pick that bus in your main panel that has the least amount running off of it and use that bus to feed the shop panel. That will do 2 things. It should (dramatically) reduce the lights in the house dimming when you start things in the shop. It'll also help all your tools and machines in the shop because they'll get full voltage. Right now it's as if you're running everything though a 100', medium duty extension cord and that's not good for the motors. Converting your shop panel to a fully-wired 120v panel will mean that all the machines and tools you have in the shop now will run better. For example, you'll notice that your 120v table saw starts much faster. You don't need to spend any money to do this - just relocate one of the #8 wires in your main panel from a fuse to the neutral bus. You'll also need to rewire the shop panel a bit so all the circuits come off of 1 bus, but again - that's just relocating conductors. The only downside of this is no 240v, but - again - that's not your highest priority right now.

One last comment - there is nothing "cobbled" about running a subpanel off of your main panel. I've got (2) 100 amp subpanels running off of our 200 amp main panel and it's all code compliant. It's a common practice. The only "cobbled" thing here is the conductor size used for your neutral and the direct-buried individual conductors. If that neutral had been a #8 in the beginning, you'd never have had a problem. Before you go the route of putting a dual meter setup in, check to see what the extra cost of having 2 meters/accounts will be - I'll bet you find the power company charges an extra base fee per month on the second account. If you spend another $200 per year in account fees just to have a separate meter, will that be justified at tax time vs. estimating your shop's power usage? You could put in 400 amp service to your house, with a dual lug meter pan. That means from 1 meter you'd have (2) 200 amp feeders coming off, one going to the house and one going to the shop. Just some things for you to consider.

Rob (which I prefer over Bob)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

By cobbled I mean buried in dirt and undersized wiring/breaker. The recommnendation has already been handed down by TWO licensed electricians. Both said #2 wire from the house to the shop, bigger breakers to the shop line (50-60amp) and one told me a new 200 amp drop & box in the house wouldn't hurt. I also never said the lights in the HOUSE flickered, they don't. It's only in the shop. Both also told me a new panel would be in order for the shop and that we could run the existing one from it.

The shop needs nothing to work as is. The panel in the house is a 100amp and the shop is a 125amp. I know it's common to run one panel off another and I have no problem with that. I just want them to be as good as they can get. But for now, since both eleectricians told me I could run as is without a problem.

On the new wiring when it's time, I doubt I'd go with aluminum wiring. Every electrician I have ever known has told me it's not safe and insurance companies hate it. We'll be running copper even though the cost is higher.