Pole Barn

[Todd Burch]

On my journey to creating a new workshop, I need another building to keep my equipment out of the weather and to house the sawmill too. I'll build a 40X40X12 pole barn. I'm going to do it myself to save some money. My goal is $10/sf ft, but I suspect it might be closer to $15/ft. Still, not bad for a 1600/sf clear span building with 2 doors @ 10X10 and 1 door @ 20X10, plus a man door and a window or tow. Roof will be 6/12 pitch.

This is my work in progress so far. Still have to add stiffeners across the lower chords of the trusses, cross bracing on the outer 3 trusses on each end, and diagonal bracing between the trusses and side walls.

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Before I start digging, I'll have a designer review it. (And, feel free to comment yourself too!)

[Jamie Buxton]

You build the trusses on the ground, right? Then you lift each one on to the walls, right? How do you do that -- a crane?

And what about the poles? Are they just pressure-treated lumber stuck in the ground, or are there footings under them?

And do you worry about hurricane winds in coastal Texas? What prevents this style of building from flying away?

[Mike Heidrick]

Call around. Amish brought in the building and erected mine on site for $10.18 a sq/ft. 2560 plus a 12X24 porch. It has 3 man doors with 9 lights, 4 36X50 windows, two 14X14 garage roll up insulated doors, complete bubble wrap roof and walls, trusses 4' on center, double 2X12 truss carriers, 8' on center 6X6 laminated posts that are pressure treated to about 4-6' above ground (just in dirt but on cement) then transition to reg wood, 2X8s PT grade boards (at ground), 2X6 wall girts, rat guard, 36" wainscotting, 1' overhangs all around, 12'X24' porch (with ceiling) with wrapped dutchman posts. Pretty sure that is all I spec'd. They did it in about 6 full days of working 12hour days and that was leaving early one Friday and working one hour the next Friday.

no electrical, no concrete, no openers

S&L Builders in Indiana - prob too far for them to build for you but have your Amish call them if needed :)

[Todd Burch]

You build the trusses on the ground, right?

Yes. Lay out sheets of plywood and attach blocks to them to make a jig.


Then you lift each one on to the walls, right? How do you do that -- a crane?

They'll be pretty heavy. 2X12 top chords, 2-high stacked 2X6s for bottom chord, a 2X8 for one of the web verticals, and the rest 2X4s. 1/2" ply gussets on both sides. Bottom chord 2X6's are spliced too.
A boom pole might do it, but a sky track / tele handler would be easier (@ $350/day). With 12' walls and a 6/12 pitch, they will have to be lifted 22'+ to clear the top of the walls.


And what about the poles? Are they just pressure-treated lumber stuck in the ground, or are there footings under them?

6X6's and 6X8's, 16' to 26' long. Pressure treated to .60 cca. Dig holes about 4.5'+ deep. Pour concrete in hole for a pad to the 4' depth. Let cure. Insert pole and tamp earth around it to the top. Another option, to resist uplift, is to drill 2 through holes through the post sides at the bottom, about 4"-5" up and insert 9" to 12" long rebar through to make a plus sign. Then, pour another layer of concrete to surround those, and then tamp the earth on top to fill the hole.


And do you worry about hurricane winds in coastal Texas? What prevents this style of building from flying away?

I'm really not so coastal any more. I'm about 120 miles from the gulf coast. Most building manufacturers have been calculating about 5 PSI snow load and 90 MPH winds for my locale. The house I'm living in now lost a lot of it's shingles back in '08 during hurricane Ike though, but I suspect due to a small, localized tornado though. During Ike, sustained winds were recorded here at 38 MPH with peak gusts to 51 MPH. Not so bad, really.

[Todd Burch]

Call around. Amish brought in the building and erected mine on site for $10.18 a sq/ft. 2560 plus a 12X24 porch. It has ...

That's a pretty good price. No Amish around here that I know of though.

For the metal buildings I've spec'ed out, the bids I've been getting range (so far) from $9.13/sf through $13.21. The low end bid had framed openings, but no doors, no overhang, shallow pitch, and comes in a kit.

No bids come with any dirt work, concrete or electrical.

Best bid so far (National Barn Company) is $11.90/sf delivered and erected, with sliding doors, but the 20X10 door is on a gable end and the 10X10's are on the side walls. Not a big deal I guess - it's a square building. For another 60 cents/sf, I can insulate the roof and walls.

I don't know… $11.90/sf is starting to sound pretty good…

[Mike Heidrick]

They will move the doors wherever you want them. My guess is less than 1K to upgrade to roll up door.

I added the site prep to the work my concrete guys bid. It was his guys that did it.

I did the trenching of electric to the site after site prep but before the building showed up.

[Tom M King]

Unless I had my own Lull, I'd stick build that roof. Why does it need to be that heavy in Texas?

[Martin Wasner]

My new building is going to be about $40 sq/ft. I don't know how I could make it much less than that.

[Jim Andrew]

Question, are your trusses @ 5' oc? Morton buildings uses about that heavy a truss on 12' centers. And in Kansas, more snow load. Don't understand why you want such a steep roof. Metal roofs are very slippery. My steel building is 4/12, and it is so slick, only the screw heads keep you from sliding off.

[Todd Burch]

I'm not a builder and not an engineer. (Wish I were both.) After my designer reviews it, if it can be lightened, (AKA, requires fewer materials…) I'm OK with that. I was referencing the truss design handbook and pole barn plans put out by Midwest Plan Services. I have the poles and trusses designed based on their 8' centers, but have placed them on 5' centers. For the header across the 20' opening, it have it designed to be built out of 2X10s, 2X4's and 1/2" ply. Here's an exploded view:

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I would love for my trusses to be strong enough to support chain hoists that could lift, oh, say 4,000 lbs, but I'm pretty sure they are not even remotely designed to that level.

[Todd Burch]

Don't understand why you want such a steep roof. Metal roofs are very slippery. My steel building is 4/12, and it is so slick, only the screw heads keep you from sliding off.

Mostly for aesthetics. I don't plan on being up there a whole lot. ;)

[Todd Burch]

My new building is going to be about $40 sq/ft. I don't know how I could make it much less than that.

Tell us about your building. Does it use pole construction?

[Ed Labadie]

6-12 pitch, been there done that, won't go there again. You CAN'T stand on it. Putting the ridge cap on requires being tethered off......the chance of severe injury overrides aesthetics any day for me.

If you are not using the commercial tie plates (like purchased trusses), I don't think you can make them strong enough to prevent collapse on a free span like a pole barn. You will need to check the material, at a certain width a truss goes from SPF to southern yellow pine for strength.

I've built trusses before, 60' wide, it's no fun. (these weren't for a free span).

IMO, go with 4-12 pitch purchased trusses, 4' OC and use 2x4's for purlins.

Ed

[Tom M King]

How about steel in one of the headers, and put your 2ton lifting point there. I'd go with Ed's plan too of buying trusses, if I didn't stick build it. I can walk on a 9in12 pitch metal roof, but only after a good rain has washed all the dust off, and then with a safety line coming over the other side, but I have very flexible ankles, and don't wear boots-no fun to build though. You have to clean the bottom of your shoes often. A thick foam rubber pad makes it easy to work on almost any pitch roof if you will mostly be sitting down. I like 5 in 12 if easy building is the priority-not hard to walk on, and don't have to bend over any more than necessary. I've been building stuff myself for over 42 years.

One addition on our house has metal on a 9in12. The front side is snap together standing seam, and the back facing the woods is screw down. I can't understand why they get so much more for the standing seam, but it is my preference if the cost doesn't matter, or worth it for the way it looks. We get calls every year to find the problem with screw down metal roofing that has developed leaks. I would only put that on if I run in every screw myself. I've also put copper on a roof with a 8 in 12 pitch main roof, but it had a complete wrap around porch of 4 in 12. It required a LOT of fabrication. I can't post a link here without ruffling feathers, but if you want to find my website, look at the roofing page for pictures of the copper roof.

[Todd Burch]

Well I broke down and ordered a pole barn kit from the local lumberyard. 40x40x12 with a 6/12 pitch. Just the kit worked out to be around $7.35/SF.

Dirt work will run about $6700. I'm putting the building in a low spot, so will need about 380 yards of select fill. ($4200 for dirt). Labor for pad and dirt work will be $2500, but that includes a lot of other grading to fix existing issues and grading to reroute water to go around the pole barn.

Erection cost - not sure of yet. One bid was $5500, but I expect the other bid to be closer to $3500.

Now, just waiting for the ground to dry up a bit.

[Mike Heidrick]

Great to here!! Get those posts in virgin ground. No fill.

A couple other thought starters.

Join garagejournal forums now :)

Are you doing radiant heat? Even if no, put the pex in for later - google blueridgecompany dot com and look up their pex and manifold pole barn package. You want the RHT Pole Heating package with Pex B tubing and manifold. The RHT-PB-1800-B-1/2 kit is $720. You can't hardly add it later. Once you buy it tell Blue Ridge to send you a pex layout plan - tell them on what wall and where you want the manifold. You want those six loops to be as close to equal length as you can make them and have as close to 9" spacing as you can have.

What about 2" extruded polystrene high density foam under the pad? Start looking for foam deals on craigslist now. You need 50 sheets. From the borg it gets pricey quick.

Tyvek tape - buy a 6 pack of rolls off ebay - cheapest place I have found it.

I also like Mesh-Ups concrete mesh support chairs. Google them. 1/2" pex is 5/8" OD. I bought 2" mesh ups. that left me plenty of room in my 5" concrete to do a 1.5" expansion cut. These things are sweet and ensure you pex is in the middle of teh slab and they do not break and crush when walked on. You want them every two feet. After I had my concrete guy order them he sells them routinely now. He had never used them before my pour.

Also if you have ever had the desire to pull against your concrete - like for a car or pulling something heavy off a trailer - check out the Champ Anchor Pull Pots at autobodytoolmart dot com. Also get the Instant floor plate for them for new floor install. Again something much easier to install in a new floor especially one with pex in it.

Id suggest a few pieces of conduit and PVC through the floor as well for things like electrical, any drains, water lines, etc.

[John K Jordan]

Oh no! You have just about inspired me to get off my lazy backside and get going on my second pole barn. I did all the dirt work and compacted gravel years about 5 years ago, built the road, and ran water/power so it's ready to put up the poles. This one is 30x60, 12' ceiling with big doors for equipment storage, horse stalls, indoor grooming, tack room, hay and wood storage, and beekeeping/honey room. I've designed with 6x6 posts, prebuilt trusses, and metal skin. I do all the work myself, including the dirt and concrete prep which saves a bunch of money (I have tractor/backhoe and bobcat). I always build with 3 in 12 pitch here in TN, galvalum over OSB - MUCH easier to walk on. (Note: if you are able, you can save a LOT of money by hauling PT posts and dimensional lumber directly from the pressure treaters. There are two pressure treaters a few hours up the road from me.) The materials for this building price out at about $6/sq ft including trusses and steel but not including the crane rental, concrete pour, and roll-up doors. I do everything else including wiring so the labor is free!

There are Amish builders near here who were going to put this building up for me but they were so busy I finally gave up on them.

On the other hand, my 24x62 shop was closer to $25/sq ft complete, built with a crew of one (me) except I hired a crane to set trusses and pour/surface the concrete. But this is a finished building, includeing 7" insulated walls, full 1/2" paneling, heat and air conditioning, ethernet/WiFi, wood and meta working, electric bay door openers, plumbed for compressed air, DC ducts above the ceiling, 100 amps underground, etc. Built with 6x6 PT posts and 3x10 beams. BTW, I welded rebar on 24" centers in the main shop and 12" centers in the bays. Three years later there is not one crack in the concrete. Took me a month to do the dirt work then I let it set for a year for good measure.

A real problem with metal roofing is the loss of cell signal, especially if it's weak to start with. Phone service was worthless in my shop until I could buy a personal cell tower, a femtocell. Hooks up to broadband - never heard of such a thing! Now it's full bars all the time.

I love putting up new or modifying a building. There is a huge sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when it starts to come together. And you can never have too many buildings...

My new shop floorplan, in case anyone is interested, now getting a lot of use!:
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Please post pictures as your's goes up!

JKJ

[Jim Andrew]

Was going to suggest you put a lean to on the building to house your sawmill, and build it with a big header so you can saw inside the lean to. Hire someone with insurance to do your erection.

[Tom Deutsch]

I just love the phrase: "I need another building." Can one ever have enough buildings? I hope the project goes well.

[Marty Tippin]

I built my 40x40x12 pole barn using a kit from Hansen Pole Buildings. They're a "mail order" company with an internet presence and they specialize in "do it yourself" pole barn kits. They drew up the plans based on my requirements and spec'd the trusses, etc. and provided an excellent set of construction drawings and a "manual" for each step of the way. They contract with local lumberyard and truss manufacturers and have it all delivered to your site. Metal was delivered from a company in Oklahoma.

Cost for the kit was quite reasonable compared to local lumberyard kits and the construction was not particularly difficult (I hired out the concrete flat work but did everything else myself with help from my brother and son.) The scariest part was setting the trusses, but I pre-built assemblies on the ground complete with purlins between pairs of trusses and had a crane come in and set them into place, took less than an hour and the cost was around $300. And it saved hours of being on top of a scaffold trying to nail it all together.

No idea what my final cost per square foot is (and I don't want to know), but the concrete floor cost probably 80% as much as the kit.

There's a lot of things I'd do differently now - my original design didn't include insulation or interior finish on the walls or ceiling (meaning the trusses weren't engineered for the weight). So after the first winter when I realized it would be too cold to work, I had the company re-do the engineering and provide a procedure for adding support so I could install a sheetrock ceiling. I also didn't insulate under the concrete floor and realize now that I'm spending a good chunk of my heating bill to heat the ground under the barn. And my electrical layout should have been done much differently -- no matter how many circuits and outlets you've designed, you'll need more. I laid out 2 20-amp circuits that alternated between outlets along the outside wall. What I should have done was to install 2-gang boxes and had both circuits at each outlet, and then ran a total of 4 20-amp circuits instead of just the two....

[Todd Burch]

Well……….. I think I win the award for the most indecisive person here on SMC. I am going to cancel the order for the pole barn. The installer's price DOUBLED after I purchased the building, as compared to the first time I met with him, and he is failing to respond to me to explain why. He also does not have insurance (thanks Jim A.)

I was supposed to get 30% off the building price on a Black Friday special, and I don't think they honored it.

The dirt work guy has a lot on his plate, and with wet ground, there's no telling when he could build my pad. If this winter is anything like last winter, we won't have dry ground until May, and I don't want the materials (lumber and trusses) to deteriorate waiting for a pad to be built.

It was a painful process getting this building ordered. I didn't find out I was getting engineered trusses until I showed up last Friday morning to purchase the kit. My prior understanding was the trusses would be built on site. As such, I had no input into the design process, and they weren't designed for a ceiling, so that I could add insulation - primarily to keep the noise down inside the metal wrap of the building. There was a line of about 10 people behind me at the lumberyard counter, and I was feeling pressured to "move along" and not go over the details of the building. Again, that was the first time I had seen the details of the specs. I had had several calls and several face-to-face meeting with my sales guy, but I had never been handed his version of what I had communicated to him until that morning. He took liberty with several of the design aspects that I would not have chosen.

Ugg. I'm so frustrated. I didn't sleep all night. I called this AM to make sure the building was on hold and suppliers had not been given the "go ahead", and they hadn't. I'll go after work and get my refund.

The good news here… is that I have a sawmill, and I have access to a skid steer, and I think I'll be happiest by doing this myself.

Back to the drawing board. Aaaaarrrgggg.

[Todd Burch]

I've ordered a load of post oaks logs that I can use for posts for this pole barn. Should be here tomorrow. I have a buddy with a Prentice loader truck that can unload them. Should be between 26 and 30 tons of post oaks, 16'6" long with a minimum of 10" tops. This is my first time to buy logs. I hope it is a good experience.

My neighbors are going to love me.

[Todd Burch]

Got my logs, and then some. Only needed around 22, but got 49. My buddy who brought his loader truck over to unload the log truck, was in hurry to unload them. That made for some pretty tricky maneuvers with the skid steer/grapple to de-rat-nest that pile safely.

Log truck arrived about 9:30am, and at 12:42pm, I was done.

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[Frank Pratt]

Those are some stout logs. Strength will not be a problem. How do you deal with the crookedness & large variation in diameter of the logs? Cut notches? Really big shims?

The pole barns I've seen use turned poles that are pretty consistent.

[Todd Burch]

I have a sawmill. I'll cut 6x6 (or some 8x8) posts out of them. I may cut the couple crooked ones in half and cut lumber from those.

[Terry Hatfield]

Hey Todd. Seems you've been on quite the adventure with this building. Hope everything is going in the right direction for you now. Subscribed for updates!

[Chris Padilla]

You manhandled all those logs yourself, Mr. Paul Bunyan?! Impressive! ;)

How do you go about drying them or will they sit there for a spell or what ???

[Todd Burch]

You manhandled all those logs yourself, Mr. Paul Bunyan?! Impressive! ;)

How do you go about drying them or will they sit there for a spell or what ???

Yes, I handled them all by myself… with a skid steer and a grapple!

They will have a chance to air dry some after they are cut, but my intent is to use them however green they are. They really won't change in height. I expect some surface cracks. No big deal - they are white oak.



Hey Todd. Seems you've been on quite the adventure with this building. Hope everything is going in the right direction for you now. Subscribed for updates!

Thanks Terry - good to see you again!

[Jim Andrew]

I would get those posts squared up before the cracks get deep in those logs!